Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

Retiring from the public forums (self-imposed exile)

Gwyneth Llewelyn
Winking Loudmouth
Join date: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,336
06-05-2005 12:51
Dear fellow residents,

I've given almost a week's thought about this, and I'm now formally announcing a self-imposed exile from the public forums.

I understand that there are several precedents for this in the past -- I've been in touch with a few self-imposed exilees, and they have given me similar advice, based on their personal experience.

I'm no newbie to forums, discussion boards, mailing lists, or any other sort of public online discussion places - although I'm a newbie to Second Life's unique in-world interactions - and self-imposed exiles is what I usually do, by becoming a lurker instead of an active participant, when I feel that things get out of hand.

In the recent past (2 or 3 weeks), people have used my words, taken out of context, to advocate my position related to some ideas or some people, and using that as a means to irritate third parties. While I assumed - erroneously - that people don't really "care" about what I write or not, this was a big mistake I commited. They "care" - as far as they can use my words as some sort of "weapon" against others.

This has caused grief to others, some of which I have always considered my friends. Thus, in turn, worries me, because people who are my friends have now bits and pieces of my writings, and use them as "proof" that I'm aligning against them.

Although I try to be as objective as I can in the things I write in the public forums, let me assure you that I always did so to defend my position and my personal agenda. I also have my egocentric moments, trust me. I don't write about things just to "please" or "displease" people. I write them because I feel I have something to contribute to the SL population, and, failing that, to give at least the community something to discuss - even to disagree with. That is also "worthwhile" in my eyes. It's better to speak against some idea than to not speak at all. If I can encourage that, I'm glad.

However, lately, people have viewed my ideas as promoting other people's "hidden agendas", or "siding" with people on disputes/disagreements, and thus not remaining objective in my thoughts. This, I think, is a consequence of my inability to remain absolutely neutral - or, worse, my inability to use a more politically correct way to express myself. I'm not "neutral" - I actively promote my own agenda. And I don't want to sound either hypocritical or condescending by saying the contrary.

Some people reading my writings know what my not-so-hidden agenda actually is: encouraging and promoting resident-based organizations of all sorts. From the days of the infamous "Government in SL" days, to recent things like the Event Planners group, or discussing how Mentors should work, it's all the same. I actively promote and encourage residents' participation in SL, complementing LL's excellent community work so far. I have always stated clearly my dislike of anarchy, chaos, and a too libertarian view of "absolute freedom", and suggested several models of "organization" and "order", where there is an open-ended participation by the whole community. I will continue do so in the future, since those are things I truly believe in.

However, by defending those ideas in the public forums recently, I have been often "accused" of picking sides. In several cases, I managed to convince those people in private that I'm not picking any sides but my own. Often I failed. But the truth is that SL is vast enough that I'll certainly find some people that will promote ideas that align with mine. This leads me to associate with them. In so many cases, I work together with people on different projects, that can't stand the sight of each other in SL. However, for me, more important than the personalities of those people, it's what they stand for that interests me. My alignment is more often towards what people do in SL, and less towards how those people behave.

When you are in the middle of people with conflicting views of the world, but with which I can relate to in a certain respect, because some of their ideas fully align with my own, it's almost impossible for an outsider to look at my actions and not to say that I'm "choosing sides". However, an objective observer (and there are so little around, these days), will see that I align myself easily with all sides - because I truly believe that every person who has something valid to contribute to SL, and which happens to have overlapping ideas with my own, is worthy of my respect, and I'm certainly willing to work with them.

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes" (certainly my favourite motto from SW III). For myself, everything really is relative, but, like the Jedi philosophy, I split the SL world in two large groups. The first one is the group that wants a growing community which self-organizes. There are many forms of self-organization. Three people forming a group of "SL Hermits" announcing that they won't want to have anything to do with SL organization are organizing themselves. Thus, I'm the sort of person who will probably align with the "SL Hermits" just because I think that people should have the right to organize themselves against organization itself :) This, of course, leads into trouble with the other group of SL - the ones actively promoting that SL should remain a chaotic landscape, and that self-organization is not a good thing, leading to drama and favouritism.

Different people in SL will organize around common goals - and be shunned because of those goals. Often they won't even see that they have common goals - they will simply accuse each other of contrary views, although, in truth, they're often promoting the same things. In my arrogance, I truly say that I have a gift of looking beyond the people and only concentrate on what they are doing. If their goals are worthwhile, I'm all for promoting them - even fully knowing that the people from the opposite group will view that as "siding" with the "wrong" people (in the old definition that "wrong" is applied to everybody else but yourself).

Exploring these dynamics is also something that I truly enjoy in SL. In a way, people are more "primitive" in SL in the sense that they're more blunt, and it's often easier to understand what really motivates them.

However, there is a limit to what I can take. When I'm thrown in the midst of emotional attacks and being accused to be siding to A vs. B vs. C, I'm always seen as biased. Since I promote A, B and C's efforts at the same time - as I see that all of them have their own merits - A will now accuse be to side with either B or C against him/her, and, of course, B and C will accuse me of the same. The problem begins when I have attached myself emotionally with all of them, and consider them to be my friends. I'm put into the position of having C saying that I'm now siding with B against A - and using my own words on the public forums as "proof" that I did it. When in reality I was siding with neither of them, and egoistically just promoting my own ideas. Of course, A, B and C will now strongly disagree, based upon their perception and interpretation of my words. And it's hopeless to deny anything, or bringing objective arguments about why I'm not "siding" with either A, B or C - but promoting all their ideas simultaneously. A, B or C will always believe that I'm siding with either one against the others, no matter what I claim publicly. At the end of the day, I'll lose all of them as friends, and probably be tagged as an anti-A, anti-B, and anti-C promoter. This definitely saddens me, and is hurting them all as well, since they feel I've betrayed their trust and confidence.

(of course, in reality, the whole alphabet wouldn't be enough for me to cover all the story - it's not just "three sides";)

The oriental philosophies teach us that to stop suffering, you must identify the source of suffering, and recognize that there is a way to stop suffering. In this case, I think that the source is very clear to me: my writings in the public forums are causing sadness, pain, and spreading the idea that I'm abandoning my friends or betraying them by stating my opinions on ideas. This, of course, is completely against the ideas that I should be promoting - building communities, and not destroying them, by hurting people.

So, at this point, I think that I will retire to my exile. I'll be still happily posting on the group forums, where the discussion is much less heated, perhaps because people know exactly what "side" they're on when they're posting on a very specific group. And I'll reserve my general opinions on the SL community, land, economy, politics, or whatever dynamics this world has to offer on my blog and some of the more technical e-zines.

To all whom I have offended, either directly or indirectly, my sincere apologies. I really hope that you understand my decision of self-imposed exile and respect it as the only way I have to stop hurting you.

"Words are silver, but silence is golden".

Take care,

- Gwyn
_____________________

Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
06-05-2005 13:49
Gwyn, I don't have any clue as to what 90 percent of your references are about because they're so oblique, the way you have to be not to get banned, I guess. I'm not so good at that Aesopian language myself. For the 10 percent I know about, I'll say -- what a silly idea to leave the forums -- why not just take a break from them?

And the idea to leave right now after such a huge post about the BBB is not a supportable one -- though I understand that sometimes the whole SL enterprise just becomes too overhwleming.

If you just finished saying in the thread about the BBB that you think matters of business reputation should be decided behind closed doors by "committees" without the forums, then it's no good to flame off the forums in a highly-publicized and self-promoting "self-exile" when all you may plan to do is retreat into backroom Thinkers and Nberg meetings and other even more exclusive and secretive societies and plan various superstructures and hierarchies in search of a base LOL. Why do that?

You are depriving yourself of actual light and health by not subjecting some of these ideologies to some much-needed fresh air that they can only get from public discussion where people have to be on their better behaviour and not propose little plans to put stuff over on others so easily.

I think probably you have to stop trying to be all things to all men and just pick. If you want to go with the Nberg socialist set, go with them. People can understand that reasonable people can disagree reasonably about that set-up or even the exclusionary White List Better BBB.

I still don't have a clear answer to my question about group forums.

You have to be a member of the group to be in the group forum, and players can so easily leave others out or even block them.

You are free utterly from Linden moderation???

Linden clearance is required to even get a private salon group forum of this nature? How does one pass through those hoops?

Youth wants to know.
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
06-05-2005 13:52
From: Gwyneth Llewelyn
Some people reading my writings know what my not-so-hidden agenda actually is: encouraging and promoting resident-based organizations of all sorts.

Its hard to promote an agenda if you pack up and leave. Must be you don't care about your agenda very much.

I cut my posting from a few a day to maybe a couple a week because of the very factors you cite. (I don't really have an agenda, anyway.) I'm also tired of debating with habitual arguers, so I just ignore most of the tripe these days. Although I still like to participate, I no longer try to convince the trolls or the peanut gallery of anything. It's just pointless.

Lots of people read the forums without ever posting, so posting here is a way to reach them. If you need positive feedback for everything, you're out of luck. But have faith that not all readers are idiots.

Buster
Gwyneth Llewelyn
Winking Loudmouth
Join date: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,336
06-05-2005 14:44
Thanks to both for your kind words.

I'll skip the comments about "promoting an agenda in the forums". I have nothing to comment on that which will not be interpreted as being biased, side-taking, or betrayal of friendships. As I said, I'll promote "my agenda" elsewhere. Fortunately, there are lots of other places. It's not that I'm going to "abandon" SL forever, just that I feel it'll be better for everybody if the forums are cleared of my presence, to let things settle down a bit. I may reverse my position next year or so. Yes, I guess things will still be interesting to discuss then :)

I'm sorry about that, and you're free to interpret my decision as you like. I'm just sorry I didn't do it before - last week, to be more exact.
From: Prokofy Neva

[...]
I still don't have a clear answer to my question about group forums.

You have to be a member of the group to be in the group forum, and players can so easily leave others out or even block them.

You are free utterly from Linden moderation???

Linden clearance is required to even get a private salon group forum of this nature? How does one pass through those hoops?

Youth wants to know.

You don't need to be a member of a group to be in the group forum, or at least, you can set it up that way. I haven't ever tried to post on all group forums, but almost all I tried worked well. I don't know if you can "ban" people from group forums. I seriously suspect that you can't, although I may ask Jeska if you wish.

You are not free from Linden moderation. ToS still applies. However, usually a group of moderators are also appointed to deal with group forums. Moderators, of course, are as subject to ToS as anybody else.

I don't have the slightest idea on the requirements for the group forums, I only know that it takes time to set them up. Besides that, I never asked Jeska, so I really don't know.

Now back to exile :)

- Gwyn
_____________________

Jamie Bergman
SL's Largest Distributor
Join date: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,752
06-05-2005 14:45
Gwen, with you may the Force be.
Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
06-05-2005 14:49
I always love a good message board suicide and this is probably the longest and most well written I have seen in all my years on the internet. The Drama Queen effect dulled only slightly but the long explanation, just slightly. People, who really intend to leave, just leave. Those who want attention and people to beg them to stay make posts. It is the oldest story on the internet. *yawn*
_____________________
Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
06-05-2005 14:51
From: Eboni Khan
I always love a good message board suicide and this is probably the longest and most well written I have seen in all my years on the internet. The Drama Queen effect dulled only slightly but the long explanation, just slightly. People, who really intend to leave, just leave. Those who want attention and people to beg them to stay make posts. It is the oldest story on the internet. *yawn*



I just took an unannounced vacation from the main forums and you didn't even send me a card...
_____________________
Little Rebel Designs
Gallinas
Satchmo Prototype
eSheep
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,323
06-05-2005 17:29
A well written blog with RSS/ATOM feeds is more effective than the forums anyway. You can ignore the immature people more easily, and have better discussion with the people who actually want intelligent conversation.
_____________________

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Electric Sheep Company
Satchmo Blogs: The Daily Graze
Satchmo del.icio.us
April Firefly
Idiosyncratic Poster
Join date: 3 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,253
06-05-2005 18:17
Good luck Gwyneth. We all have to handle things in our own way. Some people do things differently, but that's the beauty of life. If everyone did everything the exact same way, life would be boring and these boards would be dull.

The thing is sometimes we post things hoping to get a desired result. Sometimes we get that result. But then sometimes we get a bunch of stuff thrown back on us to the point where we sit and stare at the words and go "huh? Where did that come from?" Some people can shrug it off, some people come out fighting and some just have to say "well that was a bit too much, buh-bye!"

I'll just say do what you have to do. I'll look forward to your return. Hopefully I'll still be here. :o
_____________________
From: Billybob Goodliffe
the truth is overrated :D

From: Argent Stonecutter
The most successful software company in the world does a piss-poor job on all these points. Particularly the first three. Why do you expect Linden Labs to do any better?
Yes, it's true, I have a blog now!
Akane Tokugawa
Chi?
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 63
06-05-2005 18:29
Oh no. I've been looking at clothes. I wonder what's been happening in that BBB thread. :(

Gwyneth, I don't know who's saying what to you, but it sounds like a lot of pressure. Maybe as much pressure and controversy as when Neualtenberg started? I've heard about that. :(

I think it's horrible when it turns personal against somebody who is trying sincerely to understand the ideas all sides have to offer. I know some forum posters ake these controversial arguments way too seriously. It's not life and death, and they shouldn't be pressuring you like that.
_____________________
Malibu Beach Chi :)
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
06-05-2005 18:51
Gwyn, I really hope none of my comments have contributed to your decision. I really enjoy your posts! They've never made me question your motives or intentions even if I might miss your meaning. I'd feel really awful if I've offended you in some way. I hope that you'll reconsider.
_____________________

My other hobby:
www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
06-05-2005 19:53
What group forums? Where are they?

coco
Komuso Tokugawa
Registered User
Join date: 3 Mar 2005
Posts: 93
06-05-2005 20:51
From: Gwyneth Llewelyn


In the recent past (2 or 3 weeks), people have used my words, taken out of context, to advocate my position related to some ideas or some people, and using that as a means to irritate third parties.


Well, some of your words have inspired me to post, but it's just as part of a wider observation and is meant to foster what I see as a serious discussion, not to take out of context or annoy third parties.


/120/2c/49254/1.html
Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
06-06-2005 09:44
From: Cocoanut Koala
What group forums? Where are they?

coco


They are a subset of the forums, link is neat the very bottom of the forums list.

Here's a link.

-Ghoti
_____________________
"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
Jeska Linden
Administrator
Join date: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 2,388
06-06-2005 10:37
Moved to Notices and Well-Wishes.