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Defensive Land Purchases?

Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
03-30-2005 11:53
I am interested to discuss the issue of defensive purchases. I deal with this constantly. I sometimes get contacted by people very worried about what I might do around them, especially on a chopped-up water parcel, and they worriedly want to make a purchase they can't really afford in order to keep their view beause they know you have to buy the view in SL, hell, essentially you have to buy the servers' parent agents and the child agents on 4 sims to keep your view!!!

Or sometimes I log on and to my horror I suddenly see some new purple land where I had thought the red land in my peripheral vision was permanent Linden land. Or I see some land that seemed like it had a no-show owner with pretty builds on it for ages who I began to take for granted suddenly liquidated to a land baron who then chopped up the sim into bite-size pieces.

I sometimes fly around for an hour studying these chopped-liver situations, thinking if I buy a chop here, a chop there at a strategic 4 corners or within a pattern, that I might prevent it from going horrid.

Or I make an offer and sometimes get very lucky with someone who has something for sale next to me in a very risky area. Or sometimes I pay a fortune if it is really some piece I really think will become a huge nuisance if someone of a non-residential sort gets it, and I weigh whether I saved enough already on that sim to swallow the costs.

I've flown around and talked to friends and neighbours and have been amazed to discover that everyone has some private horror story, the tiny piece they bought on their sim for $20LL/meter on their sim to keep a land they liked group together.

So I wonder if people could come out of the closet on this experience. Did you ever make a defensive land purchase, unplanned, too expensive? Did you ever inquire from a neighbor whether they would sell to forestall a future griefing
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Apples Mousehold
Registered User
Join date: 9 Feb 2005
Posts: 13
Defensive Land Purchases
03-30-2005 12:23
Yup, I have certainly made defensive land purchases... though more to keep some public space around my home. I know of some others who have created public spaces in my region as well. We are trying to keep the area parklike where people can visit and relax. Hotla has done an INCREDIBLE job of this.

But for me, I bought the land off the end of my house, then the land off the side of my house in order to keep from having to much building congestion.
Chandra Page
Build! Code. Sleep?
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 360
03-30-2005 15:20
Not counting my initial First Land, my very first "real" land purchase was defensive in nature. My First Land was situated on lovely Linden-owned protected waterfront, and I couldn't believe my good fortune at having such a beautiful little plot of land on which to homestead. Unfortunately, I found out a few weeks later that the land between me and the water had actually been mis-labeled as "Linden protected", and it went to auction and sold to Anshe Chung before I'd even noticed it was no longer Linden land.

Fortunately, Anshe's price for the land was completely reasonable, and I already had plans to expand my land holdings; this just stepped up my timeframe a little for purchasing land. I was a bit miffed at the Lindens for their mistake, because the waterfront I bought was almost entirely underwater territory, but it was an honest mistake on their part. I've since enjoyed the challenge of developing such underwater property while still maintaining its natural beauty, and it's served as a suitable prim farm for building elsewhere in the same sim.
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Chameleon Calliope
Invisible Woman
Join date: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 76
03-30-2005 15:34
From: Apples Mousehold
Yup, I have certainly made defensive land purchases... though more to keep some public space around my home. I know of some others who have created public spaces in my region as well. We are trying to keep the area parklike where people can visit and relax. Hotla has done an INCREDIBLE job of this.

But for me, I bought the land off the end of my house, then the land off the side of my house in order to keep from having to much building congestion.

*raises hand* Guillty. The land I recently purchased was more than I needed, mainly because I wanted some elbow room. If I could have, I would have purchased even more. Heck... if I could afford to purchase an entire sim I'd do it in a heartbeat, without any plans to make it profitable. I'd rather plant trees than build houses, anyway.
Loki Pico
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,938
03-30-2005 15:46
Yes, and it was a turning point for me. My neighbor had a considerable size chunk of land go up for sale unexpectedly and I freaked out about it. All sorts of thoughts of the horrible things that might go in next door put me into a panic. I bought the land and it put me in a tier I could not afford.

A day later I looked back on it and thought, "WTF am I doing?" I had way over valued my land in my own mind and was trying to protect it. I realized people are free to build as they wish. Why had I held my land so dearly and why did I need to protect it? These were big questions I could not answer. The solution to my problem was to devalue the land I held so dearly and just give it all up and move to another region. It was the best thing I could have done.

I moved to an unsettled area and enjoyed some solitude for awhile. It is still pretty quiet where I am and the builds around me dont bother me at all. Not everything is ideal and how I wish it was, but as long as the sim is not bogged down with runaway scripts, Im happy. If a rash of unsightly builds owned by total jackasses pops up around me, then I will just cut my losses and move to another sim and have fun developing that property.

All of SL exists, but it exists virtually. In the big picture of life, none of it really matters. Some more established regions rarely change and there is some safety in that, but everything eventually changes. Change is good, if you cant deal with it then SL is not the place for you.
Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
03-30-2005 15:53
I bought land on the far side of Afton, which was as far as you could get from a telehub, bordered by edge-of-world on the west side, and a hill on the north side.
Moleculor Satyr
Fireflies!
Join date: 5 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,650
03-30-2005 15:55
Never.

I've been stuck next to glowing red adult stores, two story bright-white malls, and humongous pixelated purple/white moon textured castles.

The only part of the view I've ever cared about is avoiding those ugly canyons people seem to like to dig, and I've been very successful in the past at negotiating (or sneaking) terraforming rights to land I don't own to polish the land back into something resembling the original Linden shape. So far my attempts at restoring the land have held.

I'll never own more land than I can afford simply for the sake of preserving the view.
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Tito Gomez
Mi Vida Loca
Join date: 1 Aug 2004
Posts: 921
03-30-2005 15:57
I do that all the time. I end up buying land I wont use simply because I want a significant buffer between me and the next shopping center or club.

Tito
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
03-30-2005 16:02
From: someone
I moved to an unsettled area and enjoyed some solitude for awhile. It is still pretty quiet where I am and the builds around me dont bother me at all. Not everything is ideal and how I wish it was, but as long as the sim is not bogged down with runaway scripts, Im happy. If a rash of unsightly builds owned by total jackasses pops up around me, then I will just cut my losses and move to another sim and have fun developing that property.


What you're describing is what so many people do.

I don't do it in some cases (have done it in a few, sold out to get out of land hell and build hell) because I will not sell rental properties out from under people and I am trying to have that part of the sim be a stabilizing business.

What you are saying, Loki, feeds the Linden land-manufacturing-machine and the Tier-anny. You see how it works, I hope. They can bank on you being willing now NOT to to buy some land for more money (jut feeding a player, not them) and just tier up (thus feeding them, but not feeding *enough*). Instead, they can bank on you both buying more expensive new land at auction or from a wholesaler, AND paying tier. Great!

Instead, by never solving the zoning and griefing problem, they can ensure that there is this built-in engine in the game, which goads and pokes people out to new sims, especially those now able to really understand the value of a new, pristine sim with high FPS and no ugly neighbours...yet.

It's so funny to me to see a new pristine sim like Lemon the night it is roled out...know that some oldbies are packing up in disgust to move out there...some newbies are hopefully grabbing some great 512s that seem so fresh and green....and then to tune in 30 days later and see a horrible clutter of junk, making that the name of this sim describes any piece of land I buy there. First-land, prime real estate -- all pretty much a mess for now. I did buy out somebody's unfortunate first-land there though because I figured near road and water, wait another 30 days, and it will all get better and stabilize and some people, whether first land barons or first end users, see the value of picking up 5 512s and linking them. But...30-60-90 days...sims can take so long to settle and frankly, after 90 days their FPS is so battered and they've been rotated on to such a crappy server, or the scripts from existing users are so impossible to dislodge, that there isn't much hope of doing anything but...moving to new land.

Doesn't anybody else see this? Why is this considered cynical? This is what is going on.

Loki, you think that the way we stop this madness, which is aided and abetted, knowingly or not, by the Linden land policy, is to say "oh, it's a game" "oh, I have been too attached to my virtual world" and adopt a Zen-like attitude of indifference or detachment to pixel land.

But why should I have to convert to Zen and meditate just to get in virtual world and be safe?

I would advocate that there should be some pushing back against this land machine and the chaos it spews and the engine that pulls everybody out to new sims by trying to reclaim old sims, trying to cooperate on existing nearly-new sims, pooling tier, forming groups, etc. It just slows down the breaks a little bit and just prevents quite such the devastating thing that so many people scrambling to buy land and then getting deeply disappointed later go through.

Sure, you just say, I don't care about land, I'll just fly around and perch on cool oil rigs and stuff. You can say, I only get land when I stumble on 5000 meters of it in the snow somebody let go of, or when I value it enough to buy a tiny square of it for $252, lurching from indifference to caring too much.

But...why? Why can't it be more normal? Why can't what we have in SL be THAT much different than RL -- for those who want it?
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
03-30-2005 16:34
Never move to an unsettled area! You *KNOW* you're going to be cluttered up sooner than later. If you move to an older sim, it will be more stable, with nicer builds on larger plots, and above all, less change.
Lefty Belvedere
Lefty Belvedere
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 276
zoned communities
03-30-2005 16:46
If the initial startup price wasn't so rediculous, I'd definately start up my own sim with three other people. I'd zone it, hold people to height standards and create public green zones in between plots. It would be the SL utopia we're all looking for where everyone has elbow room and every plot has a wonderful view.

Plots could be rented and/or purchased but the end result would be premium prices for premium living with assurances of good spaces. We've already admitted we'd pay.

The only thing keeping me from doing this is the startup fee.

Not only would I be making money for the three of us, but I'd be making money for the Lindens. So why the huge startup fee?

One of my ideas is for the Lindens to start 5 trial sims and assign a contracting individual/group to each sim. They would be responsible for maintaining the land and making sure people adhere to some sort of agreed-upon community standard. The guaranteed quality above other sims would be a premium price point for people who put a value on the ideas this thread has already touched on. Not only would it make above average money for the Lindens, but it would improve the oppinions of SL for alot of people.
Loki Pico
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,938
03-30-2005 16:48
I dont really understand the "land machine" you describe. I was under the impression that the size of SL was directly related to the population. When I move from place to place, I keep the same tier. People do not tier up simply to have less neighbors, well, maybe some do, but the majority tier up because they have bigger projects in mind.

I dont see my attitude about SL as zen-like. I dont see how my ability to adapt to a situation is detrimental. If I cant get along with my neighbors, for whatever reason, why should I simmer and stew in a bad situation? If my answer is to move, how does that hurt anyone? Someone else will get the land I left behind and forge their own path.

I think zoned sims are a good idea. We have zoned sims now and it works for those that are there. You and others are creating places that will stay like you want them, thats very cool and admireable. But, if I choose to live in a "non-zoned" sim, why should I approach my neighbor and say, "You know, your white box of a house sure is ugly, why dont you plant a garden instead?"

I have a forest and I have had countless numbers of people tell me I am stupid for just having trees and wasting land. Why dont I do something useful instead? Because I want to have a forest, simple, case closed. If I wanted to build a gray walled prison with watch towers on the corners, I could do that too. Its my land and my choice, simple.

I guess I am a blind cog in the evil machine. You never really know how others see you, I guess.
Maxx Monde
Registered User
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 1,848
03-30-2005 17:05
From: Prokofy Neva

Sure, you just say, I don't care about land, I'll just fly around and perch on cool oil rigs and stuff. You can say, I only get land when I stumble on 5000 meters of it in the snow somebody let go of, or when I value it enough to buy a tiny square of it for $252, lurching from indifference to caring too much.


Just when I thought you could let go, the your bubbling nuclear core of PIC-ness (Prok-Inner-Core) outgasses and floods out the top of the cooling tower, radioactive debri 'falling-out' on the pristine landscape, as it were.

But, since we're talking *certain* references, I thought I'd help you get those internal registers cued up and straightened out, since the alpha rays are penetrating your tinfoil hat.

A) Snow land - it was 4,800sqm in Afton, 3,600sqm in Cottonwood, of which I bought 5,538sqm for the *juicy* price of $1L per sq/m. Delicious!

B) The land in boardman went for *$262 USD*, and I was bidding against *you* (which I found out later, amusingly enough). So, you valued it too, but only up to $261, lol.

C) The prim rig in ANWR is great, and I *do* love it. Eric Linden did a great job, and he still logs in to tweak it further. It is a good build to perch on, and several people have taken it upon themselves to do just that, you know, cause they're able to fly to the remote continent without starting hysterical threads about it, lol.

I sure hope I didn't miss anything.

Take care!
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
03-30-2005 17:09
From: someone
I dont really understand the "land machine" you describe.


No, and that continues to bewilder me because it is so obvious.

From: someone
I was under the impression that the size of SL was directly related to the population


That is the official line, but since we don't know those numbers, we can't understand them, and frankly, the size of new land is tied to the projected figure of those who buy it, and those who buy it includes those who leave old sims, abandon them, and whose land sits there unsold, or sold to barons who leave it there, for months and months and MONTHS.

From: someone
When I move from place to place, I keep the same tier. People do not tier up simply to have less neighbors, well, maybe some do, but the majority tier up because they have bigger projects in mind.


Many people justify a tier-up when they move. And people do want more space to have less neighbours in their face. Most people actually don't have "projects" like the artists or content people at the inner core you are familiar with, most people just want a house. A house is mainly what you see on most people's land.

From: someone
I dont see my attitude about SL as zen-like.


You advocated an indifference to the vexations of land problems, and that is why I used the word Zen.

From: someone
I dont see how my ability to adapt to a situation is detrimental. If I cant get along with my neighbors, for whatever reason, why should I simmer and stew in a bad situation? If my answer is to move, how does that hurt anyone? Someone else will get the land I left behind and forge their own path.


What the land engine banks on is you accepting that when things are bad YOU move, they DO NOT move, you lose your land, they do not, and no rules are ever established to help these situations.

From: someone
I think zoned sims are a good idea. We have zoned sims now and it works for those that are there. You and others are creating places that will stay like you want them, thats very cool and admireable. But, if I choose to live in a "non-zoned" sim, why should I approach my neighbor and say, "You know, your white box of a house sure is ugly, why dont you plant a garden instead?"


I am not creating a place that will stay "like I want to". I sell most of the land and the only thing I can say of most of it is that it is residential, but it isn't a perfect happy balance for everybody. It takes some maintenance to resolve the disputes and issues that crop up from time to time, but mainly I figure it is a success through several generations, however, people move, or buy up some extra land around them, precisely because builds of neighbours close in on them. It's hard to strike the balance between making a first land after 512 affordable (a 1024 and 2048) and making it have space. I figure there should be a variety of communities, some with 1024 and 2048 and then larger estate communities that people get as they save more and tier up.

Some people feel very strongly that they can ding their neighbours constantly over the white box issue, there are white boxes that I both hear about daily in my domain, and white boxes that I daily ask about next to my domain. And I think it is important for people to start conversations with white boxes. One conversation you can always start is a negrate. I know that sounds vicious and unfeeling, but it really is a way to use the game tools for expressing your judgement of someone's still-valuable reputation if you can negrate them over a blocking box. If you mean just an inept newbie or clumsy box, well, it's hard to start those conversations, I agree. That's why the ideal community association will be one that can decide on a) whether to go SL or RL in theme b) how to get houses; c) have some people on the sim build them for others or buy the prefabs they like with a certain look; d) have others landscape, etc.

From: someone

I have a forest and I have had countless numbers of people tell me I am stupid for just having trees and wasting land. Why dont I do something useful instead? Because I want to have a forest, simple, case closed. If I wanted to build a gray walled prison with watch towers on the corners, I could do that too. Its my land and my choice, simple.


I wish more people did this because you don't really need a house.

From: someone

I guess I am a blind cog in the evil machine. You never really know how others see you, I guess.
[/QUOTE]

I didn't call you a blind cog in an evil machine, Loki. You called yourself that. I said there is a machine, pure and simple. It is consiocusly or unconsciously evil. It takes the dreams of young players for pristine wilderness and the evergreen hope in the human heart that sims will "stay nice" and crushes them in the dust by allowing griefing and lack of zoning. This is a machine I think we should all be looking at carefully and deciding whether we want to be feeding or not.
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Loki Pico
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,938
03-30-2005 18:01
I called myself that because I got the impression from you that I am a cause of the problems in SL. Maybe I read you wrong. As for young players yearning for a way SL should look, I think that is a bit misguided. Its usually the younger players that critize my use of land. I really dont think it has to do with the age of a player, but more the creative values of players across the board.

As for not knowing the population or motivation of LL adding land, why should we know that? It would be nice, but I dont feel incomplete not knowing. They carefully add land knowing that they will not be able to reclaim it. They cant add a sim and force people out if the population drops and a resident winds up living in an "unneccesary" sim. I doubt new land is added haphazardly hoping it will be put to use.

I love forest and greenspace, but Im glad its not forced on us. If all of SL was forced to maintain greenspace, the overall creative spirit would be damaged. The vast differences in what people think is interesting is what makes SL an attractive place to be.

Things are always changing. People graduate from white boxes to nice cottages, apartments, research labs, nightclubs, skyscrapers, or gardens. Mandating forest land is short sighted, its not what SL is about. Promoting green space and creating places that mandate trees is great stuff, but I would not want to see everyone be forced to live that way.

I know people can be dismayed that what they thought was a great waterfront view can be damaged by someone doing what they want on their land. But, thats part of it. You can accept it for what it is, air your grievance, fued with your neighbor, or move on, whatever. Maybe they feel defeated if they move, but for me, its liberating. I never look at it as though I have been defeated. If they gloat that they "won" thats on them, I wont be seeing them anymore, I dont care. Deliberate attacks and harrassment is another issue altogether. I cant be harrassed by a build.

Things can change very fast in SL and I also feel that peoples attitudes change the longer they are here. I dont think it is about not understanding how things work, more about accepting how things are, or seeing the process differently. If some are motivated to create change and are able to motivate change, then cool. But, in the meantime, I expect to be able to live my SL life how I see fit. When things change, I will adapt and survive or simply tier down and fade away.

Your welcome to add how what I said doesnt jive with how you see things, but I dont know what else to say on the topic. I have bought land to protect myself, but I dont have a need to tier up to do that anymore.
Lefty Belvedere
Lefty Belvedere
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 276
03-30-2005 18:03
i still think we need to buy sims away from LL and manage them closely. I would do just this but the startup fee is prohibitive. I wouldn't need very much help, just appropriate income.

Community standards are human-born. We create RL and SL standards all the time. A sim managed closely will attract long-term people who will maintain a long-term community who will, in turn, pay long-term fees. The idea is reminiscent of SL as a whole. We need to be helping the Lindens with these micromanagement issues by convincing them that it is in the world's best interests to support and sponcer more managed sims. The LIndens are and forever will be under-staffed and incapable this sort of management.

The easy part is planning an entire sim, I've got the plans sitting on my desk here in RL. The hard part will be convincing the Lindens to try turning over a few sims as trial.
Lefty Belvedere
Lefty Belvedere
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 276
03-30-2005 18:48
I think Loki is reacting to the idea of rules suddenly being enforced. I'm not sure where that cam from but I understand it.

I think SL is a big enough place now where rules can be applied in sections. Communities can be planned and maintained in a small section of SL without doing any damage whatsoever to anything creative in SL. People will pay for standards or they will enjoy the rest of SL.

~Lefty
Loki Pico
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,938
03-30-2005 19:40
From: someone
Lefty said...
I think SL is a big enough place now where rules can be applied in sections. Communities can be planned and maintained in a small section of SL without doing any damage whatsoever to anything creative in SL. People will pay for standards or they will enjoy the rest of SL.


I agree with you on that. I also think that zoned communities would be very popular, if implemented properly. I just dont see the need to have a building code applied to the world universally.
Jeffrey Gomez
Cubed™
Join date: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,522
03-30-2005 20:25
The only "defensive purchases" I ever make tend to be moves. Since I don't plan to tier higher than where I am (512m^2 plus rented land), it took a couple moves before I was really satisfied.

I have to say that I like my current holding in Rose, and most of that is due to the neighbors. Talen does a pretty nice job keeping his build clean and good looking, while Kevin McLean's shops are actually easy to look at and fit in nicely.

As for my other build, it's in the sky in a friend's private sim, so I never, ever have to worry about the view. :D

On the other hand, I can sympathize with people who have problems. A friend had the misfortune of having a fairly... plain - club go up next to him, with the usual resource-hogging fare. I also occasionally tour SL and, in most areas don't see much of interest for acres. Such is the cost of freedom.
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