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What can Linden do to devalue the L?

Boyfriend Bailly
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 60
09-16-2005 07:49
Linden can devalue the L by creating more Ls in the economy, and destroying less Ls.

1. Stop charging for photos and groups.
2. Make first land free instead of 512L.
3. Raise the initial stipend and the weekly stipened.
4. Increase dwell bonuses and other bonuses.

If the L devalues, prices for commodeties (land, items, services, events) will be increased by the players. This will not be

too good for Linden Labs. As long as prices continue to rise, Linden Labs can create more Ls to keep L values low. But this

cycle is limiting.

Therefore, it would be in the best interest of Linden Labs to cash in on the currency trade as a facilitator like GOM. (When

I say best interest of Linden Labs, this does not mean the best interest of the player.)

As a facilitator, they could easily take over GOMs entire market for themselves. They would not have to worry as much if the

L value goes up. They are raking in off of the currency trade anyway.




What is in the best interest of the players?
1. Give us an interface for currency exchange with zero spread. This means that if Player X wants to sell 1000L for $5.00 to

Player Y, Player X gets $5.00 while player Y gets the full 1000L. Players would use a similar deposit/withdrawal system as

GOM.Players would be allowed to deposit and withdraw $s in and out of their accounts paying standard fees for paypal or

whatever. It is in the best interest of the players to have a free currency trade interface. Linden Labs can and should do

this.

2. Stop auctioning off mainland sims to rich people. Linden Labs creates full mainleand sims specifically to auction off to

rich people. This is not fair to the players. This is not in the best interest of the players. If rich people want a full

sim, there are islands available. It is in the best interest of the players that mainland sims be created solely to

accomodate growing membership looking to purchase first-lands. Linden Labs can and should do this.

3. Allow the L value to rise.


There is another thing I would mention that would be in the best interest of Linden Labs and the players. But it would not be

in my best interest, so I will refrain.
Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
09-16-2005 08:20
From: Boyfriend Bailly
Linden can devalue the L by .....
I'm puzzled, Boyfriend. This is exactly the opposite of what we need, and the opposite of what almost every other informed poster is calling for. You want to drive the L$ down to US$2/1000 and beyond, bankrupting everyone with any investment in cash or land, and forcing every vendor to keep hikeing his prices higher weekly, with huge expenditure of effort ? Is this a joke ? A humorous parody of other peoples posts ? I'm lost here. If you're serious, please explain why you think these effects would be good. You haven't accidentally got it all upsidedown, have you ?
Doc Nielsen
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Join date: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,059
09-16-2005 08:24
All LL need do to devalue the L$ further is carry on as normal - it's working brilliantly! :rolleyes:
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Marker Dinova
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Join date: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 608
09-16-2005 08:27
From: Boyfriend Bailly
There is another thing I would mention that would be in the best interest of Linden Labs and the players. But it would not be in my best interest, so I will refrain.


I guess we all have our itchy spots, huh?
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Kieran Rambler
Registered User
Join date: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 6
09-16-2005 11:56
From: Boyfriend Bailly

2. Stop auctioning off mainland sims to rich people. Linden Labs creates full mainleand sims specifically to auction off to

rich people. This is not fair to the players. This is not in the best interest of the players. If rich people want a full

sim, there are islands available. It is in the best interest of the players that mainland sims be created solely to

accomodate growing membership looking to purchase first-lands. Linden Labs can and should do this.


Okay, only using new land to provide first land would raise land prices through the roof! If you did this, you would only have SL growing 512 meter2 for every new member. Alot of people end up wanting more than 512 meter2. If the land doesn't grow to accomodate their wants, then the value of land will rise. They will become more and more desperate to pay higher $L as land becomes more and more scarce per member.

The auctions now only makes rich people money when players want more land. It is not in the interest of a person to buy a US$1000 sim unless the price of land has raised enough for them to resell that land at prices at least $L5.3/meter2. When too many people buy sims, you will see the price fall below that mark, and people will stop buying sims. Then eventually the demand will rise again without new supply, and more people will buy again. If you actually pay attention to the numbers, you will see that the auctions help keep land prices the same. They do not make land harder to get, they make it easier to get.
Nexus Nash
Undercover Linden
Join date: 18 Dec 2002
Posts: 1,084
09-16-2005 15:07
From: Doc Nielsen
All LL need do to devalue the L$ further is carry on as normal - it's working brilliantly! :rolleyes:


lol bang on :)
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Boyfriend Bailly
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 60
09-16-2005 22:37
From: Ellie Edo
I'm puzzled, Boyfriend. This is exactly the opposite of what we need, and the opposite of what almost every other informed poster is calling for. You want to drive the L$ down

What are you talking about?
When did I ever say I wanted to drive the L down?
I NEED the L to rise as much as possible.

I get this all the time though. People misinterpreting my post. Not sure why. Let me know what lead you to that. This happens alot.
Boyfriend Bailly
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 60
09-16-2005 23:10
From: Ellie Edo
I'm puzzled, Boyfriend. This is exactly the opposite of what we need, and the opposite of what almost every other informed poster is calling for. You want to drive the L$ down

What are you talking about?
When did I ever say I wanted to drive the L down?
I NEED the L to rise as much as possible.

I get this all the time though. People misinterpreting my post. Not sure why. Let me know what lead you to that. This happens alot.




From: Kieran Rambler
Okay, only using new land to provide first land would raise land prices through the roof! If you did this, you would only have SL growing 512 meter2 for every new member. Alot of people end up wanting more than 512 meter2. If the land doesn't grow to accomodate their wants, then the value of land will rise. They will become more and more desperate to pay higher $L as land becomes more and more scarce per member.

The auctions now only makes rich people money when players want more land. It is not in the interest of a person to buy a US$1000 sim unless the price of land has raised enough for them to resell that land at prices at least $L5.3/meter2. When too many people buy sims, you will see the price fall below that mark, and people will stop buying sims. Then eventually the demand will rise again without new supply, and more people will buy again. If you actually pay attention to the numbers, you will see that the auctions help keep land prices the same. They do not make land harder to get, they make it easier to get.

Whether land is hard to get or easy to get. I do not see how this is relevant. They should not be selling sims to rich people. How hard is it to create a new sim, section it off into small pieces, and auction the pieces off to everybody. This is more affordable for the players.
Doc Nielsen
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Join date: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,059
09-17-2005 06:02
From: Boyfriend Bailly
What are you talking about?
When did I ever say I wanted to drive the L down?
I NEED the L to rise as much as possible.

I get this all the time though. People misinterpreting my post. Not sure why. Let me know what lead you to that. This happens alot.



Um, possibly because we all read your post in plain simple English?

If we all took it wrong I'd hesitate to speculate in public what you wrote it in...
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Zapoteth Zaius
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09-17-2005 06:09
From: Boyfriend Bailly
What are you talking about?
When did I ever say I wanted to drive the L down?
I NEED the L to rise as much as possible.

I get this all the time though. People misinterpreting my post. Not sure why. Let me know what lead you to that. This happens alot.





Whether land is hard to get or easy to get. I do not see how this is relevant. They should not be selling sims to rich people. How hard is it to create a new sim, section it off into small pieces, and auction the pieces off to everybody. This is more affordable for the players.


Why would you give advice on how to do something you don't want to happen? Would say that was the main reason I didn't understand..
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Alexander Yeats
Registered User
Join date: 8 Sep 2005
Posts: 188
09-17-2005 07:43
Maybe its my non-caffinated drink this morning, but...


W T F ?

You say you don't want to devalue the linden, but the freaking title of your post is "What can Linden do to DEVALUE the $L" ?

again....


W T F ?


As someone else mentioned, you wrote this in English (at least the English I was taught to read), and both your post and counterpost both point to devaluing the current linden dollar to US, something which I am sure 98% of everyone on these forums does NOT WANT.

Please re-read your post, reflect, realize, maybe next time, just maybe, I will think out what I am saying, or not smoke a bussel of whatever it is you did smoke, before posting on the economics of a virtual game that makes a lot of people real money.

And just to point out one of the best discrepencies with your "increase the value by decresing the value" ideas....

From: Boyfriend Baily
1. Stop charging for photos and groups.
2. Make first land free instead of 512L.
3. Raise the initial stipend and the weekly stipened.
4. Increase dwell bonuses and other bonuses.

If the L devalues, prices for commodeties (land, items, services, events) will be increased by the players


Um, ok, lets do that.... lets make our economy equivilant to 1932 Germany as well as current day Venezuela. Cause we all know how the Germans got out of their depression, and we can readily see that 10k Venevuelan Bolivars can still blow the pants off of 4.66 US$ ... man that is smoking.

So you propose to cut all money sinks, AND, if LL starts to lose money, print more.... OK!

Just as a funny aside, please take note a $L to a Venezuelan Bolivar is almost 15x the buying power in the world market. If I was a Venezuelan I would be playing SL.
Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
09-17-2005 08:28
I'm not sure where Boyfriend Bailly is from but, and forgive me if I'm wrong, I get the idea that English is not the first language or he/she just doesn't have a very good command of the language. I don't think he/she meant to imply that anything that was said is what should be done rather the possibilities of what LL could do IF devaluing the L was their goal. The 2nd half of the post makes it clear that the purpose of the post was to state what LL should do for the players best interest. Perhaps it should have been entitled "WHAT COULD LL DO IF THEY WANTED TO DEVALUE THE $L"

The only gripe I have is....

From: Boyfriend Bailly
There is another thing I would mention that would be in the best interest of Linden Labs and the players. But it would not be

in my best interest, so I will refrain.


Please share this thing that would be in all our interest except for yours!!

From: Boyfriend Bailly
2. Stop auctioning off mainland sims to rich people. Linden Labs creates full mainleand sims specifically to auction off to

rich people. This is not fair to the players. This is not in the best interest of the players. If rich people want a full

sim, there are islands available. It is in the best interest of the players that mainland sims be created solely to

accomodate growing membership looking to purchase first-lands. Linden Labs can and should do this.


I agree with the PP who said that if they only released land in 512 m2 sections for first land we'd have a problem, but I wish they'd go back to auctioning off smaller pieces and that the land barons would let people have a chance at these...I'd much prefer paying the origional cost for the land.

Slightlly off topic question....when someone purchases a sim and then sells the land does the origional owner of the land have any rights to it anymore?
Boyfriend Bailly
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 60
09-17-2005 09:22
You say you don't want to devalue the linden, but the freaking title of your post is "What can Linden do to DEVALUE the $L" ?

again....


W T F ?


As someone else mentioned, you wrote this in English (at least the English I was taught to read), and both your post and counterpost both point to devaluing the current linden dollar to US, something which I am sure 98% of everyone on these forums does NOT WANT.

Please re-read your post, reflect, realize, maybe next time, just maybe, I will think out what I am saying, or not smoke a bussel of whatever it is you did smoke, before posting on the economics of a virtual game that makes a lot of people real money.

And just to point out one of the best discrepancies with your "increase the value by decreasing the value" ideas....
[/QUOTE]
OMG. Does anybody here understand what I wrote? Who said I'm giving advice about anything. I have yet to see how you guys read my posts in plain English, and assumed I wanted the L to go down. And furthermore, presuming I am directly giving advice about how to go about it. I've asked how you came up with the interpretation, and yet to see an explanation. I even predicted these misinterpretations might occur. Which is why I stated in my opening post: “When I say best interest of Linden Labs, this does not mean the best interest of the player.” Moreover, it does not necessarily mean it is not in the best interest of the player. When I am stating such. It may or may not be in the best interest of the player, myself personally, or anybody involved. It is simply stating how Linden Labs could possibly devalue the L. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I’ll state it very clearly: Personally, I couldn’t say enough how important it is to me that the L value goes up. If it goes up to $1 = 1L, I’d be the happiest person ever. I’ll state it very clearly: Personally, I couldn’t say enough how important it is to me that the L value goes up. I loose money if the L value drops. There is no reason I would want the L to drop in value. If it goes up to $1 = 1L, I’d be the happiest person ever.


My theory about the different interpretations is that the interpretation paradigms diverge between objectivity and subjectivity. The point was about how Linden Labs can devalue the L. Not necessarily saying they should or shouldn’t do so. Not necessarily stating that you or I would benefit if they do so. When one looks at it from a subjective paradigm (which myself, and hopefully anybody in a proper discussion would want to refrain from), one might not just take it for what it says: “how they might do it”. One might further presume that I want them to do it.

Why anybody would want to look at it subjectively, and add on presumptions that are unnecessary is beyond me.

I do not know how to write so that people would not make subjective conclusions. I really should not have to explain in my writing that the reader should refrain from doing this. I never do this. I state points objectively without ad-hom or any other subjective discrepancies. Furthermore, when I read something, I read it for what it is. I will make effort to accommodate people because I care about the state of the economy. Especially because I am participating in profiting from it.

If this was a reading comprehension exam, I might ask some questions about the above post:
1. Did the author state how Linden Labs might be able to devalue the L?
A. Yes
B. No

2. Did the author state that it would be in his best interest or the player’s best interest for the L to drop?
A. Yes
B. No

Answers: 1. A, 2. B

3. What was the author's intention?
Well the answer to this is that there were alot of different points and intentions in that one post. My intention was more to describe than to persuade with ragard to explaining how Linden Labs could devalue the L.

When discussing strategy, you would be setting yourself up for death if you were to only look at what you want, and your circumstance. Of course it is important to look at all the factors. This is the purpose of why I opened discussion on how Linden Labs might lower the value of the L. Getting back to this, many believe it is in Linden Labs best interest to control the value of the L, and lower it. Preferably, I believe, under $2.91 for 1,000L. Then again, I am not sure if this is in their best interest or not. The point is, it is reasonable to see that Linden Labs would want to keep the L value low. Therefore, I posted how they might do this.

The going theory for some is that as long as the Ls are low, more people can buy land. Therefore, Linden Labs banks off of the tier charges. Linden Labs wants every player to buy as much land as possible. The more land each player owns, the more fees they pay.

Therefore, they will try to keep the L value low. I would counter this, and say that land values go up anyway to accommodate the drops in L. But there is more to it. In this month of September alone, I counted over 40 new sims. This can be interpreted as Linden Lab’s way of keeping the land values low, and the L prices dropping. When there are a lot of Ls in the economy, and lots of available land, the L value drops.


From: musicteacher Rampal
Please share this thing that would be in all our interest except for yours!!

The last thing I was reluctant to state because I would lose money is this: It is totally in Linden Labs best interest as well as the player’s best interest to make sims free for claim jumpers.
1. Just create a sim, and section it off. Then make it available for players to claim it.
2. If you are a premium player, you could claim jump any land there for 0 payment to Governor Linden. All you would have to do is accept any tier charges for owning land.
3. If you are a basic player, you could claim jump the same way, and all you would have to do is accept the upgrade to premium membership.

1. This is in Linden Lab’s best interest because they profit from more premium players and more tier income.
2. This is in the best interest of the players because they can have the freedom to get more land which they might not have the Ls for otherwise.
3. This is not in the best interest of Boyfriend (that’s me) because Boyfriend’s makes money by selling his land. Therefore, nobody in their right mind would want to pay for Boyfriend’s land because they would be able to claim jump it for free. This is one reason I was reluctant to state this earlier. Another reason is because this is somewhat of a feature in my plans for creating a 3D internet.

(Instead of the World Wide Web which is connected by browsers, I have been dreaming since the 90s about creating a 3DW using a 3-D interface for people to “surf”. Virtual land ownership would just be part of the 3DW in the same way a person owns a website on their server or their host’s server.)
Doc Nielsen
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Join date: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,059
09-17-2005 09:30
OH FFS! Pleeease!
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All very well for people to have a sig that exhorts you to 'be the change' - I wonder if it's ever occurred to them that they might be something that needs changing...?
Boyfriend Bailly
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 60
09-17-2005 09:46
From: musicteacher Rampal

I'm not sure where Boyfriend Bailly is from but, and forgive me if I'm wrong, I get the idea that English is not the first language or he/she just doesn't have a very good command of the language.

Gee. I happen to be American, and had some deluded imprssion that I had pretty good command of English as a writer of everything from articles to fiction/poetry/music/instructional/advertisement/business. I would never claim that my writing is perfect. I edit resumes/ads/etc. I'm not a total gammar nutcase expert, but I did consider myself to have a pretty good command over English grammar.


From: musicteacher Rampal

Slightlly off topic question....when someone purchases a sim and then sells the land does the origional owner of the land have any rights to it anymore?

I can answer this.
There are mainland and islands sims. All sims that Linden Labs creates for Second Life are connected to the mainland with little exception.

All of the sims that are not connected to the mainland are owned by players. I call them island sims. You can have Linden Labs create an island sim for you by paying their fee, and monthly charges for one.
An island sim is totally controlled by the player that owns it. Even all of those sims in the northwest that are connected together are island sims because they are owned by dreamland barons. Not by Linden Labs.

The mainland sims however, are completely controlled by Linden Labs. If I purchase an entire mainland sim in an auction, I own all the land on the sim just like any player on any mainland sim. But I do not own the sim itself. If I sell a plot from that sim to another player. It becomes totally owned by that player. I no longer have any rights to it.

With regard to the island sim, it would have been created for me. Therefore, I would own the entire sim no matter what. If a player purchases a plot of land on my island, I can throw them out, and ban them from my island at my whim without reason. Meanwhile I keep the money.
Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
09-17-2005 11:25
Boyfriend, I'll take a stab at answering your confusion as to your reception:

You believe your title and the below section are merely factual, but within the context of these forums (where opinions are expressed) it was interpreted as a recommendation, and not unjustifiably. You laid it out as if you were presenting a case and recommending steps of action -- otherwise why are you bringing up points that no one is arguing for and Linden Lab has never suggested?

You will make your posts easier to understand if you bring your core message to the foreground, and delineate a little more clearly what you are and are not in favor of.

From: Boyfriend Bailly

What can Linden do to devalue the L?
Linden can devalue the L by creating more Ls in the economy, and destroying less Ls.

1. Stop charging for photos and groups.
2. Make first land free instead of 512L.
3. Raise the initial stipend and the weekly stipened.
4. Increase dwell bonuses and other bonuses.
Boyfriend Bailly
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 60
09-17-2005 11:57
If my intent regarding how Linden Labs could lower the L value was not clear, it is this:
My intention was to explain not to persuade.
To explain ways they could do so if they wanted to.
Not necessarily meaning that I wanted them to.
Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
09-17-2005 12:39
This is not going to end well......
I sense dim intimations of difficulties to come......
Dark clouds are gathering on the horizon.....
Introvert Petunia
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09-17-2005 13:25
Where is Godwin when you really need him? Quick to the Godwin Beacon!
Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
09-17-2005 19:34
First of all, thank you for answering my off topic question :)

now to address this...

From: Boyfriend Bailly
Gee. I happen to be American, and had some deluded imprssion that I had pretty good command of English as a writer of everything from articles to fiction/poetry/music/instructional/advertisement/business. I would never claim that my writing is perfect. I edit resumes/ads/etc. I'm not a total gammar nutcase expert, but I did consider myself to have a pretty good command over English grammar.


Please don't be offended by what I wrote, I was actually trying to defend you. Not knowing you or what nationality you were I had no idea of your english experience, and most people were just attacking you instead of trying to perhaps read what you wrote another way. Yes the topic title is confusing....if one just read the first half and the name of the post it sounds like something you should actually have posted in the hotline to the Lindens as an idea if that was what they wanted. Upon reading the 2nd half it becomes clear that your intention was not to convince LL to lower the value of the $L.

As I stated before it might have been a lot less confusing if instead of "What CAN LL do to devalue the L?" it should be "What could LL do if they wanted to devalue the L" or "signs that LL's real purpose is to devalue the L"

I apologize if you found any offense in my inferring you might not be American, but really it was confusing the way it was worded.

As for your idea that's not so good for you...I'm not sure if the $$ they would make from premium accounts and tiers would make up for the $US they recieve for the sims that are auctioned off and the subsequent tiers associated with them. They would however make more money from tiers if members were buying the land from LL and paying low tier fees rather than members renting from landbarons who pay discounted higher tier fees. Thank you for sharing it though...your message made it sound like you were concerned for the well being of the players, but when you didn't share it made it look like you were out for numero uno instead which made your whole post lack credibility.