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Increase Stipends.

Kazanture Aleixandre
Here I am.
Join date: 5 Oct 2005
Posts: 524
05-24-2006 21:57
From: Philip Linden

So, let me go back to the economy question. The Linden Dollar has gone up, recently. That is to say, it has gone down in value in relation to the US$. We made a change to the Terms of Service which was designed to impart a service notice that in the future we might sell Linden Dollars on the Linden Dollar exchange. I wanted to talk about that a little bit.

Part of this is repeating what I said in forum postings, and part of this is new information. The thing that I said prior to the forum postings is 'We are not currently selling Linden Dollars'. We're not, that is to say, we're not making any sales of Linden Dollars on the exchange that basically generate US Dollar revenue for Linden Lab. We did put that advice into the Terms of Service, but it is not something that we are currently doing.

Furthermore, as is pretty self evident, the management of an economy, whether it be the economy of a country, or the economy of Second Life, it's essential that anything that happens be completely documented, so that everybody has the same information as to what's happening to the money supply. If we're selling Linden Dollars, how many Linden Dollars are we selling, why are we doing it. What are the pools from which we are collecting those Linden Dollars, etc. So, in any event where we begin selling Linden Dollars, we will tell everybody what our strategy is and then we'll tell people when we sell Linden Dollars. Furthermore, and I did put this in the initial forum postings, the community should keep in mind that there are really two different ways that one could sell Linden Dollars, from the vantage point of Linden Lab.

One is the case where we charge you for something, like, let's say, we were charging for some new feature in Second Life. Consider, like we charge to create a group today - there's a Linden Dollar charge to create a group. And that therefore are Linden Dollars that we are collecting for providing some sort of capability or service. So, for example, uploading something has a Linden Dollar fee associated with it and it generates a cost to us because we have to buy servers to store the files that you upload. When that happens, in cases like that, there are these pools of Linden Dollars which are essentially just Linden Dollars that we collect from the community by charging for services and you could imagine us potentially selling those Linden Dollars on the exchange.

Now, that type of activity is just sort of using our own micro-currency as an effective way to charge people for things - it doesn't change the money supply. In other words, it doesn't make more Linden Dollars in the world, so it doesn't change the economy if we do something like that. So that's a category of a way to sell Linden Dollars that Linden Lab could do that doesn't have an effect on the - that doesn't change the amount of money in circulation. Wanted to clarify that.

The other thing that people have had, understandably, more concerns about would be the case in which we would create new money and then sell it to people. Obviously when that happens, you're increasing the money supply and you don't want to increase the money supply beyond the sort of natural economic growth of the environment. Now for those who follow the growth of the economy, and by the way, there's a new economic statistics page that is in the community section of the website where you can actually see these statistics. The month to month growth in transactions in world is very very substantial, so there are hundreds of millions of new Linden Dollars, each month - there's hundreds of millions of dollars in growth in the amount of overall transactions that go on in world. At present, the new money that we put into the economy which is primarily in the form of stipends is considerably less than the growth of the economic activity in the economy.

So, I just wanted to point out that although their has been some devaluation in the Linden Dollar, and we hate to see that - the amount of money that we're actually putting into the economy, is, from an economic theory standpoint, is probably less than you would expect if you want to put in - so for example the United States manufactures new money at a rate that is approximately equal to the growth of it's GDP, that is, the growth of sales of goods and services to maintain the economy. We're actually doing considerably less than that, so we actually expect our economy to go in the opposite direction - so we expect the Linden Dollars to become more valuable over time, rather than less.

The second thing is, I'd like to advise everybody, that there are a couple of changes that will hopefully have a positive effect on the value of the Linden Dollar. One is that we made the first cut that we announced a couple of weeks ago to the Dwell pool. We made a 50% cut to the Dwell Incentives this week - that translates to a change of several million Linden Dollars in total Dwell payments - that is, that money will not be added to the economy, anymore. The second step will be to remove the Dwell pool altogether, and that will happen on June the 13th.

The second thing that's happening that will happen at the beginning of next week is the introduction of a new way of purchasing Linden Dollars, particular for those people that are buying a lot of Linden Dollars, or speculating on the Linden Dollar currency, and that something called the Linden Buy Order - and that's the ability to set the price at which you would like to buy Linden Dollars if the price reaches the point that you set. It's a capability similar to the way we sell Linden Dollars today, where you set a price, and when the market reaches that point they sell at your price. Well, you're going to be able to do the same thing with buying. That will create more open buy orders and more open buy orders will generally drive the economy toward higher Linden Dollar value. So, that's something that is happening there.




LOL, sry Mr. Philip Linden but this really made me laugh:) I knew you are not an economist, actually you even dont know anything about economy. But i didnt know you were a politician:) The funniest part is about buy limits:
"That will create more open buy orders and more open buy orders will generally drive the economy toward higher Linden Dollar value."
Yes, it really did:) 10 points LOWER value hahaha:)

And this:
"At present, the new money that we put into the economy which is primarily in the form of stipends is considerably less than the growth of the economic activity in the economy. "

then INCREASE STIPENDS NOW :D

Well, seriously your answer at town hall states that you have no real economy policy.

But if you care about a healthy economy;

2 steps; simplest:
1-> make Money source = Money sinks.
2-> Unlimited L$ for sale at 249/usd by LL.


Well, continue to not listen. But unless you dont create balance between money sinks and money sources(Money source= Money sinks), all other your touches to the economy will make L$ to have less and less value. Believe me. YES SL NEEDS MORE L$ EACH MONTH BUT YOU CANT DO IT ARTIFICIALLY. LET SL TO DECIDE HOW MUCH L$ IT NEEDS MONTHLY.
Kazanture Aleixandre
Here I am.
Join date: 5 Oct 2005
Posts: 524
05-24-2006 23:43
April stipends:
49,935,550

May stipends:
51,738,400

And we still have one more stipend week in May.

This nightmare wont stop till you reduce the stipends/increase the sinks.
You have to reduce stipends. Stop telling us "economy needs more L$ bla bla", if it needs so much L$ why are the people trying to sell for lower and lower rates everyday? Why the L$ stock at lindex increasing everyday? If economy needs so much L$ why it is not buying all of the lindex?
Stop.
2 simple steps:
1-> Money Source=Money Sinks <- will try to pull L$ value up with increasing population.
2-> Unlimited L$ for sale at 249/$ <- will save the balance if SL needs more L$, SL will simply buy it.
Chri5 Somme
:)
Join date: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 204
05-25-2006 00:51
lol i stopped caring about what he said at this point...


From: Phillip Linden
the United States manufactures new money at a rate that is approximately equal to the growth of it's GDP, that is, the growth of sales of goods and services to maintain the economy. We're actually doing considerably less than that, so we actually expect our economy to go in the opposite direction - so we expect the Linden Dollars to become more valuable over time, rather than less.



following the united states lol, seeing how their economy has dropped massively, i don't think they'd be the prime example you'd want to follow. Our Canadian Dollar is just about equal to the US Dollar, 3 years ago it was only worth 65 cents to 1 USD.

I think it's the fact that LL is run by americans that we have problems with the market.

i think what he meant to say was

From: Ph1ll1p L1nd3n
I myself and the LL team know nothing about economics.
Anna Bobbysocks
Registered User
Join date: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 373
05-25-2006 01:14
From: someone


2 steps; simplest:
1-> make Money source = Money sinks.
2-> Unlimited L$ for sale at 249/usd by LL.



I think that's what basically they intend on doing, though not overnight, but in a series of migratory steps so as not to shock the economy.
Yiffy Squeegee
^vV^Squeeeeeee^Vv^
Join date: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 34
05-25-2006 03:34
From: Kazanture Aleixandre
LOL, sry Mr. Philip Linden but this really made me laugh:) I knew you are not an economist, actually you even dont know anything about economy. But i didnt know you were a politician:) The funniest part is about buy limits:
"That will create more open buy orders and more open buy orders will generally drive the economy toward higher Linden Dollar value."
Yes, it really did:) 10 points LOWER value hahaha:)
Come on Kazanture, you should be down with massive price swings and be digging on Philip's jive talking. Unless this really is the last week you'll be selling your texture pack as per the item's description "PAY LAST TIME FOR TEXTURES IN YOUR SecondLifeALL CHOSEN CAREFULLY.ALMOST ALL seamless.
LOW LAG!". I was going to buy the pack months ago, just like I was going to cash out some L$ around the same time but after seeing the massive price swings in the L$ and your texture prices (995L$ to 2,000L$ to 1,500L$), I'm just going to wait on cashing out and buying of certain things. :)
Kazanture Aleixandre
Here I am.
Join date: 5 Oct 2005
Posts: 524
05-25-2006 04:35
From: Yiffy Squeegee
Come on Kazanture, you should be down with massive price swings and be digging on Philip's jive talking. Unless this really is the last week you'll be selling your texture pack as per the item's description "PAY LAST TIME FOR TEXTURES IN YOUR SecondLifeALL CHOSEN CAREFULLY.ALMOST ALL seamless.
LOW LAG!". I was going to buy the pack months ago, just like I was going to cash out some L$ around the same time but after seeing the massive price swings in the L$ and your texture prices (995L$ to 2,000L$ to 1,500L$), I'm just going to wait on cashing out and buying of certain things. :)


Yes it is hard to manage prices for the items, especially if you paid over 200usd to buy the texture redistrubute rights and over 20000L$ to upload all.
Well , btw how are your sales to newbies for sitting down on the chairs for all day? "SL Anti-Idler v1.1- Stay logged into SL while AFK! - great for camping :) Now w/Multi-Client Support " ;)
Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
05-25-2006 05:10
From: Kazanture Aleixandre
"SL Anti-Idler v1.1- Stay logged into SL while AFK! - great for camping :) Now w/Multi-Client Support " ;)


Why are cheat programs allowed and promoted? Surely LL should be cracking down on illegal gameplay.

Lewis
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Duke Scarborough
Degenerate Gambler
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 158
Cheat programs?
05-25-2006 05:18
I read through the TOS, and I didn't see anything in there about 'cheat programs', 'macro programs' or anthing as simple as stuffing a penny in your keyboard between arrow keys to not idle out....

This is not a 'game'. There's no such thing as 'farming money'. If the landowner wants to pay you dwell (*until next month), I say let him.
Kazanture Aleixandre
Here I am.
Join date: 5 Oct 2005
Posts: 524
05-25-2006 05:24
From: Lewis Nerd
Why are cheat programs allowed and promoted? Surely LL should be cracking down on illegal gameplay.

Lewis


RIGHT!
WOW WE AGREED AT A POINT BUT YOU ARE SO RIGHT.
Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
05-25-2006 05:38
From: Duke Scarborough
I read through the TOS, and I didn't see anything in there about 'cheat programs', 'macro programs' or anthing as simple as stuffing a penny in your keyboard between arrow keys to not idle out....

This is not a 'game'. There's no such thing as 'farming money'. If the landowner wants to pay you dwell (*until next month), I say let him.


You can call it what you like. I called it honestly.

Part of the game program is to time out after 30 minutes of unactivity. Overriding that code's function is exactly the same as any other exploit such as breaking the no-copy permissions.

Both are changing the intended function, and whilst it may not specifically say that cheat programs are against the ToS, it is certainly logical that anything that misuses a game function for personal gain should be disallowed.

If you aren't calling it cheating... what do you call it? It's wrong, whatever name you attribute to it, period.

Talking of names... SL is a game, it's just you choose to call it something else.

Lewis
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Vivianne Draper
Registered User
Join date: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,157
05-25-2006 05:53
I'm all down with increasing sinks and reducing stipends. Lets up the price for uploading textures, animations and sounds to, oh say, 100 lindens a pop. Do that and I won't bitch about reducing or eliminating stipends :)
Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
05-25-2006 05:56
It really saddens me to see so many people stressed out and upset with the vaule of a virtual currency. Please do not put more into SL than you can afford so that people don't have to worry about the value of the $L and can just enjoy making what they can. If people weren't so panic stricken about the falling value they'd be more patient to wait for a better value.

What I really question is whether or not the amounts being set by limit buys are what people really think is fair to pay or if it's being abused by traders? If it's not being abused, I don't think people can complain about the value of the $L set by limit buys because that is the consumers and buyers letting the sellers know what they are willing to pay for $L's. Everything is only as valuable as what someone is willing to pay for it.

I really thought the classifieds would be a HUGE sink since people are paying HUGE amounts of $L to place an ad near the top of the list. Without dwell, the sinks vs sources should be closer to equal.
Jamie Bergman
SL's Largest Distributor
Join date: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,752
05-25-2006 06:29
From: Kazanture Aleixandre
April stipends:
49,935,550

May stipends:
51,738,400

And we still have one more stipend week in May.

This nightmare wont stop till you reduce the stipends/increase the sinks.
You have to reduce stipends. Stop telling us "economy needs more L$ bla bla", if it needs so much L$ why are the people trying to sell for lower and lower rates everyday? Why the L$ stock at lindex increasing everyday? If economy needs so much L$ why it is not buying all of the lindex?
Stop.
2 simple steps:
1-> Money Source=Money Sinks <- will try to pull L$ value up with increasing population.
2-> Unlimited L$ for sale at 249/$ <- will save the balance if SL needs more L$, SL will simply buy it.


Here Here!! You have seen the light!
Elror Gullwing
Registered User
Join date: 6 Sep 2004
Posts: 306
A Disconnect Between Sources of $L and Total Monthly Transactions
05-25-2006 07:39
Am I missing something? (Probably, most of you would agree.) But, when looking at the Economic Statistics for April, I see just over $59MM cash in to the economy and nearly $18MM cash out to the varioius Sinks. Ok, I understand that. Pretty simple math to net out how many $L's actually went into the economic mix during April.

But.... when looking at the Resident Transactions by Amount chart, I see huge numbers of $L being spent by residents for what I assume are goods and services in the SL economy. I also assume that a great deal of this buying of goods and services, including land sales, goes into the accounts of the successful retailers and land barons. OK, I am all for capitalism. But, I also understand that thousands of SL members and residents also take huge sums of $L's out of the economy every month to fund their RL - including the land barons meeting the unbelieveable obligations to LL in terms of paying for the many sims and islands purchased en masse from LL and to meet mind boggling tier payments. All of this outflow is $L's being converted to USD - probably hundreds of thousands of USD per month, maybe more. Based on the inworld holdings of just one certain land baron, that person's USD obligation to LL has to be literally thousands of USD's per month. Bottom line, the total transactions per month represent a HUGE level of spending by residents on a monthly basis.

Resident Transactions by Amount (2006 April)
Transaction Size Volume
1L$ 939,670
2 - 19 L$ 2,096,495
20 - 49 L$ 605,754
50 - 199 L$ 626,491
200 - 499 L$ 398,527
500 - 999 L$ 169,274
1,000 - 4,999 L$ 158,903
5,000 - 19,999 L$ 41,241
20,000 - 99,999 L$ 8,678
100,000 - 499,999 L$ 634
>= 500,000 L$ 45

Total Transaction Count 5,266,511

I am not going to do the math and sum the column total of $L's based on some average transaction within each row of Transaction Size. But, just making the assumption that the average transaction within row $20,000 - $99,000 is say, $55,000. Then $55,000 per transaction X 8678 transactions = $477,290,000 in spending within that transaction level alone for the month of April. Plus, at that level of per transaction, I have to assume those transactions are for inworld land sales. AND, I assume that alot, if not most, of that $477,290,000 is taken out of the economy via conversion to USD to support ongoing inworld real estate operations, or just plain profit taking to RL Paypal and bank accounts. In sum total the economy is huge - probably well over a $1BB in spending per month.

So, my question is, based on the the shear size of the economy and the level of spending that is occurring, how does the apparent very small infusion of weekly stipends really matter or actually impact the value of the sinking $L? I personally don't think the stipend payment has any impact, other than allowing the vast majority of member / residents to do a little shopping, save up for a land purchase, and just generally stimulate the economy via consumer spending. I also assume that alot, if not most, of the spending is done by relatively new residents. Most 'senior' residents have either purchased their way to a bloated inventory, parlayed land purchases and sales to where they want to be on the grid, and generally have learned to create a great deal of their own content. They don't buy much of anything once they have been in SL for any length of time. Therefore, the economy, those creators / retailers and those into real estate, really do depend on the younger residents for their livelyhoods - both RL and SL.

Cut or eliminate the stipends and you destroy the consumer spending base and overall consumer confidence. It is not the stipends that are causing the $L to slide, it is large numbers of residents clammering to meet their monthly USD obligations to LL by placing ever higher Sell Bids in order to insure they actually do sell the huge numbers of $L's they need to convert to USD to fund their ongoing inworld operations. If they don't convert of $L's to USD on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, they run the risk of a cashflow shortfall and possible a default on their obligations to LL. Hmmm... did we not see that a months or so ago when someone came up a little short and LL took drastic action regarding the account? I won't even go into the role LindeX plays in regard to the value of the $L. BTW, today's average is $337L / $1.00USD on the LIndeX. I respectfully leave that subject to Wayfinder. ;)

Some would say, OK, just eliminate or have a sliding scale on stipends based on the members' ages. I would say that would be very unfair to those members / residents who have contributed greatly in making what SL is today - 10 times larger that it was in 2003 - 2004. Secondly, I believe many of the senior members do eventually spend alot of their inworld accounts for the occasional large purchase, including that parcel of land they have had their eye on. Plus, alot of that $500L / week goes to sinks such Upload Fees, Classifieds, and Directory Fees. Some of the monthly stipend is also converted to USD to help pay tier fees on our large land holdings we have accumulated over time. I personally would be very upset if my 'contract' with LL was broken and my stipend, which I have dearly paid for over time, were to be eliminated or reduced. I would probably just create a new account / alternate and continue to collect stipend on the newbie account. Yeah, a net reduction in monthly income, but at least it would be something coming in. That would make Phil happy, too. Wow, membership numbers would soar yet again.

Anyway... my long winded humble opinion. Think I will go buy some $L's......