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Limit the stipends ant total amount of L$ in the system

Angelique Rich
Registered User
Join date: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 21
05-30-2006 01:45
I'm quite new to the game and therefore missed some of the discussion about dwells, stipends and such.

What I noticed by browsing that forum is a discussion going on if stipends should be stopped or not for premium players.

In my opinion, there is a third way and that would be to limit the stipends.

Option1: Simply dont give a stipend to anybody who has more L$ than a certain limit, for example 2000L$. I dont really know why somebody with more than 2000L$ would need free money. This would then be something like social help from the government for the poors ;). With this option, I would also suggest to have people pay for certain things one needs to do in the game, if they are not eligible for a stipend. For example: if you have more than that 2000 L$ on your account, you pay 1L$ per teleport, if you dont, its free. Moneychairs? sure, but only if are eligable for stipends.

Option2: Limit the total amout of L$ given to a player by stipends to a player (actually to the credit card tied to the player). This forces the players to either find a way to earn money in the game or buy L$ for $.



Regarding the inflation, many player note that we have more dwells than sinks. This certainly can be a problem. I dont know if the total amount of L$ in the game is fixed somehow. If not, buying L$ with real $ simply turns on the money printing machine and generates more money -> risk of inflation.
Now, if Linden would limit the total amount of L$ in the system, L$ becomes a limited resource and follows the rules of demand and supply. After all, RL money is a limited resource too, as governments try not to print unlimited amount of money to prevent inflation.
However, trying to install such a thing in a game opens a whole can of worms, as balancing an economy is no easy thing. If you think you have an easy solution to the problem, have a talk with Alan Greenspan :)
Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
05-30-2006 01:52
I see one huge flaw in your logic.

From: Angelique Rich
This forces the players to either find a way to earn money in the game or buy L$ for $.


Not everyone here is capable, or desires, to create stuff to make money.

Sure, it's a fault of Linden Lab's one-track marketing system that people are coming here with just the thought of making money, rather than actually contributing something useful to the benefit of the community.

I have a real job, with real bills to pay, and I come to Second Life to escape the daily grind and have fun. Sure, if I have enough money coming in to pay my monthly bills, then that's all well and good; but it's the difference between entertainment (which is a disposable outgoing) and an incoming profit.

You have to remember that when you have an economy which is 90% seller, there's only a limited market for what is being sold, and that's why we have the problems we have today.

If LL were to vary their marketing tactic, and give a true paradigm shift to the overall ethos of Second Life, I strongly believe we would be better off for it.

Lewis
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Angelique Rich
Registered User
Join date: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 21
05-30-2006 02:26
From: Lewis Nerd
Sure, if I have enough money coming in to pay my monthly bills, then that's all well and good; but it's the difference between entertainment (which is a disposable outgoing) and an incoming profit.

Lewis


I agree, it depends of course how much L$ one thinks is needed to finance a lifestyle in SL. So, if you think you need 1000L$ per week, it costs you roughly 3$ per week to buy L$. If 12$ per month for SL is too expensive, I suggest to re-think RL financial priorities.

Personally, I prefere option 1 in my suggestion, as this keeps the stipends of 500L$ per week for those people who can't or don't want put RL$ into the game. But I still think, once your "fortune" reachs a certain limit, why should you get support from the "Linden Government"? Yes, I do pay a monthly fee for my premium account, but hey, the servers & infrastructure SL runs on are not payed with L$ ;).
Musuko Massiel
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 435
05-30-2006 03:18
"Sure, it's a fault of Linden Lab's one-track marketing system that people are coming here with just the thought of making money, rather than actually contributing something useful to the benefit of the community."

No it is not. It is that money system that spurs people to create the things that contribute to the community. If you don't want to pay to have those things provided, produce them yourself with your own time, money and skills.

Of course...if you lack those things...you have to pay someone else to do it for you; just like I have to when I need a pair of socks, or a choccy bar; I buy them as I can't produce them myself.

I'm insulted that you think us content creators don't contribute to the community. We BUILT the bloody community!

"I have a real job, with real bills to pay, and I come to Second Life to escape the daily grind and have fun."

Oh, so something that provides you fun and escapism shouldn't cost any money, right? Like...your computer, or software, or internet connection, or electricity?

"You have to remember that when you have an economy which is 90% seller"

Second Life is NOT 90% seller. Do you see 180,000 shops out there on SL?

"If LL were to vary their marketing tactic, and give a true paradigm shift to the overall ethos of Second Life, I strongly believe we would be better off for it."

DANGER! HIGH LEVELS OF EXECUTIVE SPEAK! DANGER!

How would you have LindenLabs shift? Abolish the currency and economy and replace it with a fixed-rate $15 a month fee for each and every player in SL? Because they'd have to fund themselves somehow, and at the moment they do it by taking a cut off of the economic system.

So tell me; a Second Life where you have to pay to play, where there is no longer a financial incentive for people to create content...is that really the game you want to play?

Musuko.
Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
05-30-2006 03:30
Firstly let me make it very clear to you that I am a content creator - I have created, with only a few bought in items, several entertainment possibilities for others to enjoy, which is fully funded from my own money at this point. Just because my little store doesn't sell a lot (because I see little point wasting time creating duplicates of things that 100 other stores have) doesn't mean I'm not as valuable to the game overall compared to other players.

I've never said that it's wrong for people to be paid for creating things - in fact I have on a number of occasions commissioned others to script stuff for me that I have not been able to produce myself. If you have a skill, market it, sell it and enjoy the benefit - but when your driving force is your income, rather than your contribution, that's when I think it's wrong - and with the one track 'come and make money' marketing system is not selling SL at its full potential. If you have a car and sell it because it has a great stereo, you might attract audiophiles to buy it, but once you start marketing its fuel economy, safety systems, baggage space etc etc then it becomes attractive to completely different socioeconomic groups.

I've never said SL should be free - I have a premium account and 4096 tier monthly. What do you contribute in real money to Linden Labs?

"So tell me; a Second Life where you have to pay to play, where there is no longer a financial incentive for people to create content...is that really the game you want to play?"

Again you misinterpret my words and intention. But if a lot more people made things just for the fun of it, rather than profit, SL would be a much richer world, in many ways.

I'm not saying the economy should be abolished - it's just there are much better reasons to be here than just make money.

Lewis
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
05-30-2006 04:20
I can verify Lewis is a content creator..I've bought a washing machine and lava lamp from him.
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kerunix Flan
Registered User
Join date: 3 Sep 2005
Posts: 393
05-30-2006 04:25
From: Lewis Nerd
But if a lot more people made things just for the fun of it, rather than profit, SL would be a much richer world, in many ways.


Making stuff just for fun in SL can be expensive.
e.g : take a look at "pro racer"

A lot of people just try to sell to not lose too much money.
Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
05-30-2006 05:38
From: kerunix Flan
Making stuff just for fun in SL can be expensive.
e.g : take a look at "pro racer"

A lot of people just try to sell to not lose too much money.


Again, I differentiate between "covering costs" and "making a living from a computer game".

I treat SL like a casino - I spend each month what I can afford to lose. If I come away with a profit, it's a bonus.

Lewis
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Cheyenne Marquez
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Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 940
05-30-2006 07:02
From: Angelique Rich
Option1: Simply dont give a stipend to anybody who has more L$ than a certain limit, for example 2000L$. I dont really know why somebody with more than 2000L$ would need free money. This would then be something like social help from the government for the poors ;). With this option, I would also suggest to have people pay for certain things one needs to do in the game, if they are not eligible for a stipend. For example: if you have more than that 2000 L$ on your account, you pay 1L$ per teleport, if you dont, its free. Moneychairs? sure, but only if are eligable for stipends.

From: Angelique Rich
Option2: Limit the total amout of L$ given to a player by stipends to a player (actually to the credit card tied to the player). This forces the players to either find a way to earn money in the game or buy L$ for $.


IMHO, neither option is a viable solution.

The reason being is with option 1 the system would be gamed badly. Residents would simply play the "shifting linden" game between alts and friends in order to circumvent the proposed limit of $L for each account, thereby avoiding this "penalty." And if we were to calculate the limit based on the combined total of anyones alts per credit card, there will always be family and friends who could hold our linden, or additional credit cards to shift our linden to.

The matter of fairness should also be an issue of consideration. Many people are of the impression that since they are paying for their subscription, they are therefore entitled to their $L500 stipend regardless of how successful they have been in their SL.

So what do you believe would be the end result?
A good percentage of people downgrading to basic maybe?

At this point in SL's evolution, i believe it would behoove LL to find creative ways to increase their population of premium residents, not decrease it. And this would work toward decreasing it and thus cutting into LL's bottom line.

Now they could cut/limit stipends for premium residents by replacing these stipends with a replacement incentive, such as increased land allocation, and that might work. But that is the direction they should be headed in. Not simply limiting/cutting stipend and offering nothing else in return, unless...they eliminated free basic accounts altogether with.
Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
05-30-2006 07:46
From: Musuko Massiel

No it is not. It is that money system that spurs people to create the things that contribute to the community. If you don't want to pay to have those things provided, produce them yourself with your own time, money and skills.

I'm insulted that you think us content creators don't contribute to the community. We BUILT the bloody community!


And here I do have to take issue. Building content is not the same as building community. People create the community because they are the community. Even if there was no content is SL beyond the Library, people could still talk to each other, and if people were still friendly, there would still be a community.

Content creation allows communities to better express themselves in graphical terms, which can help create them, but it also introduces rich/poor divides which can pull them apart.

From: someone
"You have to remember that when you have an economy which is 90% seller"

Second Life is NOT 90% seller. Do you see 180,000 shops out there on SL?


According to Philip Linden approximately 25% of SL is content creators. But being a content creator is not the same as being a L$ seller and being a consumer is not the same as being an L$ buyer.

From: someone
So tell me; a Second Life where you have to pay to play, where there is no longer a financial incentive for people to create content...is that really the game you want to play?


Why is there "no longer a financial incentive to create content"? Again, are you saying that the people who created the content for WoW, GW and other games using the standard model didn't get rewarded for their work?
Rasah Tigereye
"Buckaneer American"
Join date: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 783
05-30-2006 07:56
1, if this were possible, I would set the limit to $10,000 instead of $2,000. $2,000 is VERY easy to blow really fast through.
2, it's not very practical, because although I own over $200,000L, I only have $0L in my account. All my money is kept in Ginko Financial.
Svar Beckersted
Registered User
Join date: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 783
05-30-2006 08:04
From: Angelique Rich
I dont know if the total amount of L$ in the game is fixed somehow. If not, buying L$ with real $ simply turns on the money printing machine and generates more money -> risk of inflation.
Now, if Linden would limit the total amount of L$ in the system, L$ becomes a limited resource and follows the rules of demand and supply. After all, RL money is a limited resource too, as governments try not to print unlimited amount of money to prevent inflation.
However, trying to install such a thing in a game opens a whole can of worms, as balancing an economy is no easy thing. If you think you have an easy solution to the problem, have a talk with Alan Greenspan :)



There currently is Total L$ Supply (L$) 681,211,519 in the game and when the page where this comes from is updated in less then 24 hours you can see how much more new money was added via stipends.
2ndLife Commerce
Member
Join date: 26 May 2006
Posts: 38
05-30-2006 08:19
From: Svar Beckersted
There currently is Total L$ Supply (L$) 681,211,519 in the game and when the page where this comes from is updated in less then 24 hours you can see how much more new money was added via stipends.




about L$12/million is added every week, so when the page is updated soon, the total will be just shy of L$700/million.
Musuko Massiel
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 435
05-30-2006 12:52
"Again, I differentiate between "covering costs" and "making a living from a computer game"."

To make a British minimum-wage living from SL I'd need to make at least L$23,500 per day, every week day, 50 weeks a year.

This isn't likely to happen.

Musuko.
2ndLife Commerce
Member
Join date: 26 May 2006
Posts: 38
05-30-2006 13:03
From: Musuko Massiel
"Again, I differentiate between "covering costs" and "making a living from a computer game"."

To make a British minimum-wage living from SL I'd need to make at least L$23,500 per day, every week day, 50 weeks a year.

This isn't likely to happen.

Musuko.




why not? that is only US$70 a day.
Musuko Massiel
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 435
05-31-2006 00:25
"why not? that is only US$70 a day."

I'd need to get a LOT more content created before I get anywhere near deserving of that kind of income.

Musuko.
Svar Beckersted
Registered User
Join date: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 783
05-31-2006 00:39
From: 2ndLife Commerce
about L$12/million is added every week, so when the page is updated soon, the total will be just shy of L$700/million.


Something must be wrong the 30 May update lists the total L$ ingame at L$681,937,443.