Second Life Forums Archive - Just in case you missed the new TOS entries

Jason Foo

Old Timer

Join date: 6 Feb 2004

Posts: 105

05-09-2006 20:06

I was watching for the "NEW" TOS entries about LL selling money on the exchange. below you will find paragraphs 1.4 and 1.5 of the TOS. This makes me wonder what is next to pop up concerning the currency. And your responses fellow residents?

1.4 Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab.

You acknowledge that the Service presently includes a component of in-world fictional currency ("Currency" or "Linden Dollars" or "L$"

, which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of our product when, as, and if allowed by Linden Lab. Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, Linden Dollars represent a limited license right governed solely under the terms of this Agreement, and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time. You agree that Linden Lab has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right.

1.5 Second Life offers an exchange, called LindeX, for the trading of Linden Dollars, which uses the terms "buy" and "sell" to indicate the transfer of license rights to use Linden Dollars. Use and regulation of LindeX is at Linden Lab's sole discretion.

The Service currently includes a component called "Currency Exchange" or "LindeX," which refers to an aspect of the Service through which Linden Lab administers transactions among users for the purchase and sale of the licensed right to use Currency. Notwithstanding any other language or context to the contrary, as used in this Agreement and throughout the Service in the context of Currency transfer: (a) the term "sell" means "to transfer for consideration to another user the licensed right to use Currency in accordance with the Terms of Service," (b) the term "buy" means "to receive for consideration from another user the licensed right to use Currency in accordance with the Terms of Service," (c) the terms "buyer," "seller", "sale" and "purchase" and similar terms have corresponding meanings to the root terms "buy" and "sell," (d) "sell order" and similar terms mean a request from a user to Linden Lab to list Currency for sale on the Currency Exchange at a requested sale price, and

"buy order" and similar terms mean a request from a user for Linden Lab to match open sale listings with a requested purchase price and facilitate completion of the sale of Currency.

You agree and acknowledge that Linden Lab may deny any sell order or buy order individually or with respect to general volume or price limitations set by Linden Lab for any reason. Linden Lab may limit sellers or buyers to any group of users at any time. Linden Lab may halt, suspend, discontinue, or reverse any Currency Exchange transaction (whether proposed, pending or past) in cases of actual or suspected fraud, violations of other laws or regulations, or deliberate disruptions to or interference with the Service.

_____________________

If my doctor told me I had only six minutes to live, I wouldn't brood. I'd type a little faster.

Herzog Svarog

The Wise(ass)

Join date: 9 Nov 2004

Posts: 74

05-09-2006 20:38

erm, I see nowhere in either paragraph that says LL will be selling any L$ on the LindeX or otherwise. Basically all it does say is that LL is the facilitator of L$ trading (selling and buying) between residents of SL, that's it, nothing more. Perhaps I've misunderstood what you actually meant, if that is the case could you please clarify...

Cocoanut Cookie

Registered User

Join date: 26 Jan 2006

Posts: 1,741

05-09-2006 20:55

From: Jason Foo

You agree that Linden Lab has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Currency

Goodness.

C

C

_____________________

Aliasi Stonebender

Return of Catbread

Join date: 30 Jan 2005

Posts: 1,858

05-09-2006 21:38

From: Cocoanut Cookie

Goodness.

Not really any different than before, that. It's their play-money, they can play with the money.

_____________________

Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?”
Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff

Kazanture Aleixandre

Here I am.

Join date: 5 Oct 2005

Posts: 524

05-09-2006 22:43

The only difference is they tried to make L$(lciense) sales legal for themselves... if they havent missed any(taxes) point.

Games Prototype

Force Recon Sniper

Join date: 4 Aug 2004

Posts: 159

05-10-2006 04:50

But as seen here, I really don't see anything stating that they will sell the L$ on the lindex themselves. what they did do though is enforce their right to change anything to do with the L$ as they see fit.

_____________________

Life is serious, Games are fun. Enjoy your second life.

Jon Rolland

Registered User

Join date: 3 Oct 2005

Posts: 705

05-10-2006 05:18

They didn't specify lindex just their right to sell it any way they see fit.

1.4 Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion

Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion.

And twice they proved they are just looking for extra money not balancing the economy.

and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab.

and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time.

Aliasi Stonebender

Return of Catbread

Join date: 30 Jan 2005

Posts: 1,858

05-10-2006 07:55

From: Jon Rolland

They didn't specify lindex just their right to sell it any way they see fit.

1.4 Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion

... which they already do. A premium member is "buying" L$ through the increased stipend, after all.

From: someone

Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion.

... which, again, they already did back when basic accounts cost money, since L$ is worthless without SL access.

This ToS does not seem to change things so much as clarify an already-existing situation.

_____________________

Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?”
Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff

Jon Rolland

Registered User

Join date: 3 Oct 2005

Posts: 705

05-10-2006 08:21

But it could be read for direct sales not stipends which was the announced reason for the change. And vague language just gives them huge latitude in how to sell. No restrictions. In order to read the TOS as not covering direct sale of $L you'd have to ignore the stated reason's for the change. Something I'm not doing.

Michael Seraph

Second Life Resident

Join date: 9 Nov 2004

Posts: 849

05-10-2006 10:53

The only thing that worries me is the "...modify and/or eliminate such Currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right." The minute I make any money (if ever lol) in SL I'm going to help devalue the $L by cashing it out as soon as I can. LL can't modify and/or eliminate $US.

Web Page

slow but steady

Join date: 4 Dec 2004

Posts: 129

05-10-2006 11:32

as usual, the gist is "This is ours. Not yours"

All of their wording always reserves all rights, and really all it does is clarify what they've laid claim to, (all of it -- duh I get it already). Technically I'm not at all sure if all of it would hold up in court, but I play it safe. I don't give them much money (or anything else) at one time. People like anshe must feel chills when statements like that are issued, but they also probably know their legal odds and have contingency plans.
Where's that Attorney General when you need him?

Just in case you missed the new TOS entries
Jason Foo Old Timer Join date: 6 Feb 2004 Posts: 105	05-09-2006 20:06 I was watching for the "NEW" TOS entries about LL selling money on the exchange. below you will find paragraphs 1.4 and 1.5 of the TOS. This makes me wonder what is next to pop up concerning the currency. And your responses fellow residents? 1.4 Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab. You acknowledge that the Service presently includes a component of in-world fictional currency ("Currency" or "Linden Dollars" or "L$", which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of our product when, as, and if allowed by Linden Lab. Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, Linden Dollars represent a limited license right governed solely under the terms of this Agreement, and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time. You agree that Linden Lab has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right. 1.5 Second Life offers an exchange, called LindeX, for the trading of Linden Dollars, which uses the terms "buy" and "sell" to indicate the transfer of license rights to use Linden Dollars. Use and regulation of LindeX is at Linden Lab's sole discretion. The Service currently includes a component called "Currency Exchange" or "LindeX," which refers to an aspect of the Service through which Linden Lab administers transactions among users for the purchase and sale of the licensed right to use Currency. Notwithstanding any other language or context to the contrary, as used in this Agreement and throughout the Service in the context of Currency transfer: (a) the term "sell" means "to transfer for consideration to another user the licensed right to use Currency in accordance with the Terms of Service," (b) the term "buy" means "to receive for consideration from another user the licensed right to use Currency in accordance with the Terms of Service," (c) the terms "buyer," "seller", "sale" and "purchase" and similar terms have corresponding meanings to the root terms "buy" and "sell," (d) "sell order" and similar terms mean a request from a user to Linden Lab to list Currency for sale on the Currency Exchange at a requested sale price, and "buy order" and similar terms mean a request from a user for Linden Lab to match open sale listings with a requested purchase price and facilitate completion of the sale of Currency. You agree and acknowledge that Linden Lab may deny any sell order or buy order individually or with respect to general volume or price limitations set by Linden Lab for any reason. Linden Lab may limit sellers or buyers to any group of users at any time. Linden Lab may halt, suspend, discontinue, or reverse any Currency Exchange transaction (whether proposed, pending or past) in cases of actual or suspected fraud, violations of other laws or regulations, or deliberate disruptions to or interference with the Service. _____________________ If my doctor told me I had only six minutes to live, I wouldn't brood. I'd type a little faster.
Herzog Svarog The Wise(ass) Join date: 9 Nov 2004 Posts: 74	05-09-2006 20:38 erm, I see nowhere in either paragraph that says LL will be selling any L$ on the LindeX or otherwise. Basically all it does say is that LL is the facilitator of L$ trading (selling and buying) between residents of SL, that's it, nothing more. Perhaps I've misunderstood what you actually meant, if that is the case could you please clarify...
Cocoanut Cookie Registered User Join date: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 1,741	05-09-2006 20:55 From: Jason Foo You agree that Linden Lab has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Currency Goodness. CC _____________________
Aliasi Stonebender Return of Catbread Join date: 30 Jan 2005 Posts: 1,858	05-09-2006 21:38 From: Cocoanut Cookie Goodness. Not really any different than before, that. It's their play-money, they can play with the money. _____________________ Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?” Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff
Kazanture Aleixandre Here I am. Join date: 5 Oct 2005 Posts: 524	05-09-2006 22:43 The only difference is they tried to make L$(lciense) sales legal for themselves... if they havent missed any(taxes) point.
Games Prototype Force Recon Sniper Join date: 4 Aug 2004 Posts: 159	05-10-2006 04:50 But as seen here, I really don't see anything stating that they will sell the L$ on the lindex themselves. what they did do though is enforce their right to change anything to do with the L$ as they see fit. _____________________ Life is serious, Games are fun. Enjoy your second life.
Jon Rolland Registered User Join date: 3 Oct 2005 Posts: 705	05-10-2006 05:18 They didn't specify lindex just their right to sell it any way they see fit. 1.4 Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion. And twice they proved they are just looking for extra money not balancing the economy. and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab. and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time.
Aliasi Stonebender Return of Catbread Join date: 30 Jan 2005 Posts: 1,858	05-10-2006 07:55 From: Jon Rolland They didn't specify lindex just their right to sell it any way they see fit. 1.4 Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion ... which they already do. A premium member is "buying" L$ through the increased stipend, after all. From: someone Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion. ... which, again, they already did back when basic accounts cost money, since L$ is worthless without SL access. This ToS does not seem to change things so much as clarify an already-existing situation. _____________________ Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?” Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff
Jon Rolland Registered User Join date: 3 Oct 2005 Posts: 705	05-10-2006 08:21 But it could be read for direct sales not stipends which was the announced reason for the change. And vague language just gives them huge latitude in how to sell. No restrictions. In order to read the TOS as not covering direct sale of $L you'd have to ignore the stated reason's for the change. Something I'm not doing.
Michael Seraph Second Life Resident Join date: 9 Nov 2004 Posts: 849	05-10-2006 10:53 The only thing that worries me is the "...modify and/or eliminate such Currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right." The minute I make any money (if ever lol) in SL I'm going to help devalue the $L by cashing it out as soon as I can. LL can't modify and/or eliminate $US.
Web Page slow but steady Join date: 4 Dec 2004 Posts: 129	05-10-2006 11:32 as usual, the gist is "This is ours. Not yours" All of their wording always reserves all rights, and really all it does is clarify what they've laid claim to, (all of it -- duh I get it already). Technically I'm not at all sure if all of it would hold up in court, but I play it safe. I don't give them much money (or anything else) at one time. People like anshe must feel chills when statements like that are issued, but they also probably know their legal odds and have contingency plans. Where's that Attorney General when you need him?

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Just in case you missed the new TOS entries