Group Land Sale Doesn't Transfer Objects on Land
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Random Unsung
Senior Member
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 345
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04-11-2005 07:38
I'm putting this point in Land and Economy because I don't believe it is a technical bug nor do I think it belongs in feature requests because I think it's a broader discussion.
Last night I tried to buy a parcel of land with a beautiful home on it from some sellers who had thoughtfully added their beautiful home into the deal on their lakefront property. They have a group land, and they were the owner as that group, and on that parcel, they clicked off the option "sell objects on land".
I then wondered what those objects would look like once I bought them as a group purchaser myself and whether they'd get automatically group-deeded, and then wind up being vulnerable to disappearance under the current function that simply "disappears" any group-deeded objects when returned off the land, even if set to group, shared with group, and deeded (the game doesn't know where to return them to and deletes them).
But we took a chance on it..and...nothing happened. The objects went nowhere despite being clicked off in the right box and remained the property of their creator. Their group land transferred to my group, but the objects sat there.
So...a 45-minute session ensued while the owner transferred each linked-up section of his very large three-storey structure and dock into my possession buy selling the pieces for $0 to me -- of course risking that any fly-by could grab it...and I spent another 30 minutes labelling each of those things called "object" that I bought so they wouldn't become unfindable if sent back to inventory. Nuisance case.
This happened because no one thought about group land or groups dealing in land or the use groups to hold land and sell land and houses -- well, they never do, as I've found.
So, the question is...is it worth bothering with? I don't know if anyone else cares.
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Moonshine Herbst
none
Join date: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 483
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04-11-2005 09:37
Maybe it works if the items are deeded to the group first. I'm guessing owner of land and items must be the same for it to work. Just a hunch. 
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Shack Dougall
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Join date: 9 Aug 2004
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04-11-2005 13:35
From: Random Unsung So, the question is...is it worth bothering with? I don't know if anyone else cares. Lots of people care, for sure. I haven't done an end-to-end deal yet, but I have played with the show button that shows what's transferring with the land. From this, it looks like the owner of the land and the owner of the objects has to be one and the same. This is less than convenient, to say the least, but honestly it isn't an easy issue to solve because of permissions and ownership rights. But I haven't actually sold a property with objects yet. I just verified that SL believes that objects will transfer.
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Solar Ixtab
Seawolf Marine
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 94
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04-11-2005 14:27
Groups and group ownership in SL is fundamentally broken in such a way to make groups useless for anything but amusing titles and free land tier.
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Random Unsung
Senior Member
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 345
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04-12-2005 00:07
Yes, Solar, I agree. They aren't so much "broken" as they just were never intended to be used for land holding and new tools need to be developed. From: someone Maybe it works if the items are deeded to the group first. I'm guessing owner of land and items must be the same for it to work.
Just a hunch. I believe this was the case but I'm going to work it some more with some prims. It might be that two individuals in the same group were involved, on on the land, the other on the house. Fact is, clicking everything off just didn't work.
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Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
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04-12-2005 07:23
It is very troublesome, because you have no recourse if you don't get what you expect. If you buy land with objects and the objects disappear, then what? You buy land with objects and the objects aren't yours, then what?
I've given up on groups being involved with the with-objects feature. Land I have for sale with objects is owned by my regular account and not in any group. That wouldn't bother me if it was a RULE, but because its a buggy troublesome stay-away-from, so many people will lose confidence in the feature that it may as well not even be there.
What good does it do to have features that everybody is afraid to use? (or, worse, that only newbies will use because they don't know any better. Let's make sure all newbies get burned by every bug and learn every lesson the hard way.)
Buster
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Random Unsung
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Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 345
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04-12-2005 07:36
From: someone It is very troublesome, because you have no recourse if you don't get what you expect. If you buy land with objects and the objects disappear, then what? You buy land with objects and the objects aren't yours, then what?
I've given up on groups being involved with the with-objects feature. Land I have for sale with objects is owned by my regular account and not in any group. That wouldn't bother me if it was a RULE, but because its a buggy troublesome stay-away-from, so many people will lose confidence in the feature that it may as well not even be there.
What good does it do to have features that everybody is afraid to use? (or, worse, that only newbies will use because they don't know any better. Let's make sure all newbies get burned by every bug and learn every lesson the hard way.) OK...so let me get this straight. You're now going to take your precious land out of the group you had, where you had the group discount feature to cover an extra 10 percent, and a few other perks coming out of a group management system (ability to exchange tier between groups, sweep prims with an exchange of group ownership temporarily, etc.). So...you're going to eat those costs now, and put your land out straight from Buster Peel, with, say, Buster's Laboratory (a kinda kewl newbie project of yours with low prims which we happened to save in inventory, who knows, it might be something we could sell on ebay someday when you're rich and famous ROFL). So...I come along as a group purchaser, I buy your land with your welded Buster's Lab on it and...oops...I don't have Buster's Laboratory. I have...Buster's Laboratory as alien prims on my land which you have to come and link up and I have to buy in pieces again. I think that's what happened. Dunno. Some Sunday afternoon when I have world enough and time -- and some group deeded prims -- I will run these tests. So I think what we're saying is that if a singleton person sells their own land with objects welded on it to another single person who takes over single ownership, it will work. But a huge percentage of land is sold from and to groups, no? At least sold from groups. What I want to know is this: could Governor Linden himself click off that "sell objects with land" function as a routine measure in laying out tracks of land? Then I don't have to replant all those trees, I don't have to be accused of strip-mining, and I can put the land on autoreturn and not lose the trees, and keep off griefers. Does anyone know if Governor Linden is doing this? I forgot to check.
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Shack Dougall
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Join date: 9 Aug 2004
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04-12-2005 07:42
From: Random Unsung What I want to know is this: could Governor Linden himself click off that "sell objects with land" function as a routine measure in laying out tracks of land? Then I don't have to replant all those trees, I don't have to be accused of strip-mining, and I can put the land on autoreturn and not lose the trees, and keep off griefers.
Does anyone know if Governor Linden is doing this? I forgot to check. WOW! Excellent point!!!!! If ever there was a person who needs to use this feature. It's Governor Linden.
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Shack Dougall
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04-12-2005 07:44
From: Shack Dougall WOW! Excellent point!!!!!
If ever there was a person who needs to use this feature. It's Governor Linden. Oops, the Gov doesn't own any trees. 
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Shack Dougall
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04-12-2005 07:48
From: Shack Dougall Oops, the Gov doesn't own any trees.  Nope, I was wrong. The Gov does own the trees. At least, in Agapema.
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Random Unsung
Senior Member
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 345
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04-12-2005 07:52
What I *think* is happening is the Governor is not realizing he needs to masss click off this very function himself.
I don't think he has it clicked off but unfortunately, I forgot to check when I bought land there recently after the patch, and now it's too late because I automatically blew off the prims as I am always forced to do when I buy land -- because otherwise I have to remove the Governor Linden trees anyway when tenants don't want all that nature clogging up their prim count.
So please, somebody buying either first land, or land off the auction now, see if Gov Linden did this...and see if we can get him to do this so that anyone buying the land then has all the trees instantly in their possession. That way they can keep the land looking nice before it sells, and even keep that pretty Linden configuration of trees after the end user gets the parcel.
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Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
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04-12-2005 09:57
From: Random Unsung So I think what we're saying is that if a singleton person sells their own land with objects welded on it to another single person who takes over single ownership, it will work. Yes, I think so. From: someone But a huge percentage of land is sold from and to groups, no? At least sold from groups. Even so, if the UI refused to let you either buy or sell land with objects to or from a group, that would be an undesirable rule. But that would be preferable to having it SEEM like you can do something, but that something screws up a lot so nobody will ever use it, group or no group, because they will hear horror stories. From: someone What I want to know is this: could Governor Linden himself click off that "sell objects with land" function as a routine measure in laying out tracks of land? Then I don't have to replant all those trees, I don't have to be accused of strip-mining, and I can put the land on autoreturn and not lose the trees, and keep off griefers. That was my very first thought when I first heard about this feature. It is REALLY annoying to not be able to just move the trees around a little. On several occasions I have right clicked on a tree to find out exactly what kind it is so that I could delete it and add it again two meters over. It would be great if all the trees were already mine. I would wager that there would be a LOT more trees and bushes in SL if that were the case. People just clear ALL the trees because its such a pain, maybe planning to put some back but not getting around to it. 1.6 did add the feature to be able to return objects by user, so you CAN return everybody BUT yours and the gov's. And auto-return doesn't seem to return the gov's trees. Buster
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Random Unsung
Senior Member
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 345
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04-12-2005 10:52
From: someone 1.6 did add the feature to be able to return objects by user, so you CAN return everybody BUT yours and the gov's. And auto-return doesn't seem to return the gov's trees. Yes, but Buster, who has the TIME??? To go and pick through every lot's individual prim owners and save the Governor's??? No, autoreturn does return the Governor's trees. And gah, he has so many of them in the new world!
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Shack Dougall
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Join date: 9 Aug 2004
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04-12-2005 11:47
From: Random Unsung No, autoreturn does return the Governor's trees. And gah, he has so many of them in the new world! Get a load of this!!! So, after I read Buster's comment about auto-return and Governor's trees, I tried it. LOL, not what I expected. 1) it did *not* auto-return the Linden trees. 2) but it *did* remove the Linden trees from the parcels prim allocation. So, the net result is that the trees are still there and now the parcel has its full allocation of prims as well. When you look at the object tab for the land, it says that there are 0 prims on the land. But if you do the "Object Owners: Refresh List" thing, it still shows Gov Linden's objects. And the objects *are* still there. You can see them. It isn't ghosting in the traditional sense. If you relog, they're still there. I'll check it again tomorrow and let you know if they last the night. 
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Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
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04-12-2005 12:00
From: Shack Dougall And the objects *are* still there. You can see them. It isn't ghosting in the traditional sense. If you relog, they're still there. I'll bet you're seeing ghosts. Seriously, I've had auto return on plots with lots of trees, I've never sene the trees auto returned. Wonder why. Buster
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Random Unsung
Senior Member
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 345
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04-12-2005 12:27
Well I will go back and check this, but on our Columbia land, I looked at the trees, and Governor Linden was showing a figure like 278. And I thought, geez, what a prim hog, that Guv. So...well...I confess I had to blow him out of the water. I do plan to replant some time...
I also saw autoreturn return all the trees. Was this due to linking a parceled lot back to another lot? That can happen. Well, I'll check. But the Guv's trees are definitely showing on my panel.
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Shack Dougall
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screenshot
04-12-2005 12:42
Here's the land tab after I turned on auto-return with Gov Linden trees.
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Shack Dougall
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04-13-2005 08:06
It's the next day and the Gov Linden trees are still there after turning on autoreturn. Looks like Buster was right.
My test case was in Agapema on the New Continent. Don't know if this works across all sims, but it's interesting.
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
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04-13-2005 08:17
Wow, Shack, you are absolutely right! I had the exact same experience now in Burns.
I think something changed in between the 1.6 patch and the subsequent patchlets? When I first bought in the New Continent, the Governor's numerous trees were on my prim bill. So I blew them off, I couldn't afford to fund such an expensive date.
But yesterday, when I bought in Burns, I noticed that the Governors' trees were not counting against the lot prim count. That is, when I looked at the objects menu, his objects were on there. But when I looked at the window for the available number of prims, they were at the full amount, as if his trees weren't on there.
Furthermore, when I put on autoreturn to 3 minutes, when I came back hours later, the trees were still there, the prim count was at the full amount for that size, and the Governor's objects were still showing.
I guess they figured that if they are doing to do all that planting, they should encourage players to keep it green by making it easy to keep Governor trees and also not have them count on the prim count.
Now we have to see if they did this everywhere, in the old world too.
There's one other test, I'm afraid. I find that even when you have 0 on autoreturn, if you take a parcel and link it to another parcel when you put them both in a land group, the act of linking can blow off prims.
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Shack Dougall
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04-13-2005 08:25
From: Prokofy Neva There's one other test, I'm afraid. I find that even when you have 0 on autoreturn, if you take a parcel and link it to another parcel when you put them both in a land group, the act of linking can blow off prims. I've seen this too. Mostly, it appears to blow away prims that are on the borders of the parcels that you are joining or subdividing. It's a really annoying bug. It affects any prim, including part of your build. And you're right, it happens even if you turn off autoreturn before you do the operation.
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