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Sim-Owners Powers. What exactly are they ? How exercised ?

Lindar Lehane
registered user
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 272
05-03-2005 17:40
I think I understand this private sim subleasing situation pretty well now, from reading other peoples posts, from struggling to clarify my own, and from researching the topic. But there is one big gap in what I know. I would be very grateful if someone could help me out. On my own it would cost me $980US to get the answers.

WHAT EXACTLY CAN A PRIVATE SIM OWNER DO to his land, and to his "tenants". How exactly is his power exercised? I looked on the Ansheland website. Not a peep on this question. If I remember correctly, it just warns that tenants have to trust the owner.

Say I own a sim. I separate out a plot. I take someone's money. They invite me into their group. I "deed" the plot to the group, and resign from it ( no, you can't read significance into the word "deed", LL didn't choose it on purpose, it just happens to be in the software already).

Now what ? How do I exercise my abnormal powers ? If I click on "about land" or "edit land" do I find I still have all the powers of the land owner, despite not being in the group? Or am I still in the group as an officer, even though it looks as though I'm not? Is the resignation inoperative? Is it just a meaningless ritual I go through to make the tenant feel more like an owner?

Can I do small things to the land and its objects ( eg delete a wall). Can I move, take, operate group owned objects?

Or have I indeed lost these owners rights temporarily, until I do something special with a menu we ordinary mortals never see, to specifically revoke the "deeding". Which the tenant would be bound to notice.

Or is reclaiming the plot more tedious, like putting the plot up for sale, and re-buying it from myself ?

I am just amazed that people go into these situations without asking questions like this. If I am going to give another player power over me, I want to know exactly what power, and how it can be exercised. This also affects what sort of police action the owner can take against rule violators or troublemakers. Is it all or nothing, like having to confiscate the plot (or not), or can the sim-owner delete or move a build, or part of it, leaving things otherwise unchanged?

I feel that every prospective subleaser has a right to a clear description of the sim-owners powers. Every sim-owner should have to give a copy to prospective customers. Otherwise how can they be making informed decisions ?
Toy LaFollette
I eat paintchips
Join date: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,359
05-03-2005 17:46
Lindar, Im waiting for a reply from this hotline post :)

/invalid_link.html
_____________________
"So you see, my loyalty lies with Second Life, not with Linden Lab. Where I perceive the actions of Linden Lab to be in conflict with the best interests of Second Life, I side with Second Life."-Jacek
Lindar Lehane
registered user
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 272
05-03-2005 17:52
Great minds thinking alike, eh, Toy ?
One more long-winded than the other :rolleyes:
Toy LaFollette
I eat paintchips
Join date: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,359
05-03-2005 17:55
From: Lindar Lehane
Great minds thinking alike, eh, Toy ?
One more long-winded than the other :rolleyes:

Yes Im curious because I do own a sim hehehe and rather than get the info 2nd hand I decided to go to the source cause I really dont know the answer :)
_____________________
"So you see, my loyalty lies with Second Life, not with Linden Lab. Where I perceive the actions of Linden Lab to be in conflict with the best interests of Second Life, I side with Second Life."-Jacek
Lindar Lehane
registered user
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 272
05-03-2005 17:55
I've little hope of a Linden reply. Perhaps some kind sim-owner will put us out of our ignorance ?

Edit: Oh whoops, youve got one ! Havent you experimented ? Sometimes in SL its the only way lol.
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
05-03-2005 17:57
From: Lindar Lehane
I think I understand this private sim subleasing situation pretty well now, from reading other peoples posts, from struggling to clarify my own, and from researching the topic. But there is one big gap in what I know. I would be very grateful if someone could help me out. On my own it would cost me $980US to get the answers.

WHAT EXACTLY CAN A PRIVATE SIM OWNER DO to his land, and to his "tenants". How exactly is his power exercised? I looked on the Ansheland website. Not a peep on this question. If I remember correctly, it just warns that tenants have to trust the owner.

Say I own a sim. I separate out a plot. I take someone's money. They invite me into their group. I "deed" the plot to the group, and resign from it ( no, you can't read significance into the word "deed", LL didn't choose it on purpose, it just happens to be in the software already).

Now what ? How do I exercise my abnormal powers ? If I click on "about land" or "edit land" do I find I still have all the powers of the land owner, despite not being in the group? Or am I still in the group as an officer, even though it looks as though I'm not? Is the resignation inoperative? Is it just a meaningless ritual I go through to make the tenant feel more like an owner?

Can I do small things to the land and its objects ( eg delete a wall). Can I move, take, operate group owned objects?

Or have I indeed lost these owners rights temporarily, until I do something special with a menu we ordinary mortals never see, to specifically revoke the "deeding". Which the tenant would be bound to notice.

Or is reclaiming the plot more tedious, like putting the plot up for sale, and re-buying it from myself ?

I am just amazed that people go into these situations without asking questions like this. If I am going to give another player power over me, I want to know exactly what power, and how it can be exercised. This also affects what sort of police action the owner can take against rule violators or troublemakers. Is it all or nothing, like having to confiscate the plot (or not), or can the sim-owner delete or move a build, or part of it, leaving things otherwise unchanged?

I feel that every prospective subleaser has a right to a clear description of the sim-owners powers. Every sim-owner should have to give a copy to prospective customers. Otherwise how can they be making informed decisions ?

Say if you rent a plot from me in a private island estate. You want to deed that plot to a group of your choice, not a problem. As you have already stated, you would have to invite me as an officer of the group to deed the land, then I would leave the group. Now whilst the land is deeded to a group I am not officer of, I cannot edit the land etc. If you end the rental agreement, there is a button I can click to reclaim the land. This will 'undeed' the plot. :)
Toy LaFollette
I eat paintchips
Join date: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,359
05-03-2005 18:00
From: Lindar Lehane
I've little hope of a Linden reply. Perhaps some kind sim-owner will put us out of our ignorance ?

Edit: Oh whoops, youve got one ! Havent you experimented ? Sometimes in SL its the only way lol.

no I havent since I decided to not have mine a group land.... and yes that post will get a reply prolly tomorrow sometime they are very good at answering the hot line questions
_____________________
"So you see, my loyalty lies with Second Life, not with Linden Lab. Where I perceive the actions of Linden Lab to be in conflict with the best interests of Second Life, I side with Second Life."-Jacek
Lindar Lehane
registered user
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 272
05-03-2005 18:10
Thank you Hiro.
So its all or nothing - a special "reclaim" button.

Police actions cannot be adjusted to be proportionate to the offence, offending builds cannot be moved or removed. You just have to threaten confiscation to try to make them comply.

And then of course, if you do finally confiscate, you face another question. If the arrangement was formulated as a "purchase" what do you do about the purchase price? Do you refund it? Part of it? None of it? Or do you let them "sell" it to someone else for what they can get?

It's a pity its all-or-nothing in a way. makes policing much more difficult if its got to be a series of threats of ultimate action, rather than just deleting the offending object, say, and letting them sort out the result. Will take much longer to get action if it has to be that drastic. What if someone builds something awful, and doesn't log on for a month? Come back to find their land gone, without there ever having been any discussion?

I suppose you could undeed, delete, redeed, so when they come back the land is still theirs but empty. Oh no you couldn't, you need an invite to get back into the group to deed.

Hmmm..

These are all details, along with the formulation of good laws, which need time to evolve.
Lindar Lehane
registered user
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 272
05-03-2005 18:15
From: Toy LaFollette
I decided to not have mine a group land....


Eh? The plot thickens. I know even less than I thought.
There's a decision regarding "group land" or not, when you buy ?

I'd be really grateful if you'd explain that, Toy.
Toy LaFollette
I eat paintchips
Join date: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,359
05-03-2005 18:17
no, its just a personal decision, my sim shows just me as the owner, no group
_____________________
"So you see, my loyalty lies with Second Life, not with Linden Lab. Where I perceive the actions of Linden Lab to be in conflict with the best interests of Second Life, I side with Second Life."-Jacek
Lindar Lehane
registered user
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 272
05-03-2005 18:31
Ah (relief) :p
Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
05-03-2005 18:37
I would like to know, if you are deeded land from an island, can you sell it to the next person freely, or do you need to contact the owner of the island to do that? It would be nice to have a side-by-side comparison of what you can and cannot do with Linden Land and the private islands. I think that this will help everyone better understand land deals all around.
Jesse Brearly
Registered User
Join date: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 234
05-03-2005 18:48
From: Dnate Mars
I would like to know, if you are deeded land from an island, can you sell it to the next person freely, or do you need to contact the owner of the island to do that? It would be nice to have a side-by-side comparison of what you can and cannot do with Linden Land and the private islands. I think that this will help everyone better understand land deals all around.



I agree, it would be nice to know positively what exactly each can and can not do. I am not talking about "benefits" of one or another but just what the tools LL provides can/can not do.
Roberta Dalek
Probably trouble
Join date: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,174
05-03-2005 19:12
From: Dnate Mars
I would like to know, if you are deeded land from an island, can you sell it to the next person freely, or do you need to contact the owner of the island to do that? It would be nice to have a side-by-side comparison of what you can and cannot do with Linden Land and the private islands. I think that this will help everyone better understand land deals all around.


You can't sell it at all, well not officially.

You can transfer your rental agreement to someone else I presume, as long as they also agree to pay the landowner. If they don't pay the landowner they can reclaim it.

I currently rent from Hiro Queso - the land is deeded to a group we formed for the purpose.

This means that I can set the stream, land editing, ban list etc.

My About Land tab does give me the option of selling the land and releasing the land.

However - my landlord can reclaim the land at any time. I have use of the land for paying rent.

I don't understand why someone would buy the land I rent - they would just be agreeing to continue renting. If the number of rental plots were limited so that they became desirable then maybe there would be a market in transferring the opportunity to rent it. However I doubt my landlord would be too impressed.

Releasing the land would be pointless - it's too big to go public land - and the Lindens can't auction it.

I propose that the options to sell and release are removed from land deeded to groups on private islands. Neither are actually possible.
Lindar Lehane
registered user
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 272
05-03-2005 19:35
Presumably, if the resident can edit land, she can subdivide it.
I imagine each landowner who is adhering to the "you own it" model would have to make a decision on whether they will permit residents to subdivide their plot, and "sell" off part, as real owners can?
I can't see anything permitting or forbidding this on the "Ansheland" website, for instance.

Another decision for the landowner is whether she will forbid "sub-sub-leasing". Can I take a big plot in Ansheland, subdivide it, maybe build a nice house on each to add value, and then "sell" each (needing Anshe's help) to another person, for any sum I like, and charge them an increased "tier" set by me, and paid to me. So long as I keep paying Anshe the tier I agreed to her? A neat way of starting up in "landlording" with a reduced up-front investment and risk? If subdividing is forbidden, can I sub-sub-lease my undivided plot?

I wonder if Anshe, or any other owner, will permit this? Morally a bit hard to refuse, since the resident is only doing to the landowner more or less what the landowner did to LL. It would be fair for them to make a reasonable admin charge for the time spent doing the "re-deeding" I guess.

And sub-sub-sub-leasing...........?
Lindar Lehane
registered user
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 272
05-03-2005 19:47
Phew.

It all gives me a sense of awe that our current RL civilisations were ever got to work.
And a realisation how long and slowly they must have evolved, and with what mistakes and deadends.

Makes me think how utterly naive it is for us to imagine we can turn up in an underdeveloped country, or a culturally very different one, and expect them to adopt our way of doing things in a mere few decades, whether by force or even by persuasion.
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
05-03-2005 20:44
In Midge, which was the predecessor to the current Ansheland, subletting of land that I had purchased from Anshe, and had paid Anshe for, was indeed allowed. I had only to ask Anshe to invite the person into the group so that they could hold their prims. Had I provided complete furnishings of the house, I could have brought in someone at any time essentially if they were willing to sublet from me under those conditions.

At any time you could cash out the purchase price minus a service fee. It wasn't a bad cashout at all. This is true of the new Ansheland.

Honestly, I wish you'd just quit spouting off about this and just go in the game and check it.

People call me paranoid. But I never rant about plots thickening, etc.

Here's my post to the Hotline:


Land Sale Listings for Private Islands

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Private Island Deeding - Estate owners and group officers can now mark their parcels on their island as deedable.

Currently Linden Labs is permitting advertising in the in-game "LAND SALES" list for these parcels to be rented or sold as "deeded," i.e. a long-term lease with special terms.

I heartily approve of the continued presence of these listings in the game list, until such time as the Lindens can devise a better, more categorized and filtrable classifieds list in the next verion that permits the listing of any kind of item or service for sale, and includes rentals and long-term lease sales both on mainland and private island sims.

Will LL be rolling back that defacto acknowledgement that it is OK to list these types of offers in the LAND SALE list?
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Toy LaFollette
I eat paintchips
Join date: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,359
05-04-2005 09:04
Deeding is giving the land over to group ownership.

Prior to 1.6 it was possible for estate (private island) owners to 'deed' islands over to a group for building and object control reasons. In the case of an estate the estate owner still owns the land, still pays the tier and still has final say on that land - they could revert it back to owned by them. The trick was this deeding, and un-deeding, required a call to support and for us to manually make the switch.

With 1.6 we added the ability for estate owners to do this themselves, including reclaiming deeded parcels within their estates. This included a significant side effect in that while previously only whole islands were deeded or undeeded at a time, the new method allows individual parcels to be deeded and reclaimed.
__________________
- Kelly Linden


this is the reply I got from Kelly on this subject.
_____________________
"So you see, my loyalty lies with Second Life, not with Linden Lab. Where I perceive the actions of Linden Lab to be in conflict with the best interests of Second Life, I side with Second Life."-Jacek
Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
05-04-2005 09:09
Has a Linden replied to these questions in any post yet? If so, will someone kindly post a link to the thread?
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Toy LaFollette
I eat paintchips
Join date: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,359
05-04-2005 09:14
/invalid_link.html
_____________________
"So you see, my loyalty lies with Second Life, not with Linden Lab. Where I perceive the actions of Linden Lab to be in conflict with the best interests of Second Life, I side with Second Life."-Jacek
Chris Wilde
Custom User Title
Join date: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 768
05-04-2005 09:35
From: Toy LaFollette

Too bad Kelly didnt say if this side effect was a positive or negative one in LL eyes. I could care less as long as they are categorized differently in the GUI.