Sliders for clothing looseness

Someone suggested I post this here (was originally in design thread) so here it is!

OK, Lindens, listen up (lol). We desperately need more sliders for looseness of articles of clothing. Here's why. Guys complain to me all the time about the lack of 'normal' guy's clothing. I think I've determined part of the reason for this. Most men do not wear skin tight shirts. When adjusting the slider for shirt looseness it'll puff out everywhere but the waist. Who tucks in t-shirts?? Well, I'm sure some do, but most of us don't. This also makes it impossible to do a-line style dresses. Skirts have to go high up on the waist because when we do them lower, there's a gap between waistband and hips. And jackets? Heh, don't even get me started. Who wears a jacket so tight their butt crack is seen through it? lol. OK, I've ranted enough, the point is that it would be great if the 'looseness' could be divided into more sections for each garment piece. Anyone else agree or am I just nuts?

Kat

Definitely nuts.

P2

While they are adding this, they should add in the ability to make shirts look like they aren't glued onto the chest.

I want my shirt to stretch across dammit!

Let's have sliders for looseness of us women! *vamps*

I vote for having the jacket on the "skirt layer", not the "shirt/pants layer", and letting the jacket go down to your feet. That would at least let you have loose jackets.

Oh, and when you have a split skirt (or skirt acting as a lower jacket because of the problem in the previous paragraph), and you move your legs apart... it shouldn't look like your legs are wrapped in stickytape.

How about a slider that makes the chest area on clothes look like it isn't vacuum-formed to the chest? Aside from wet t-shirt contests and really streachy sweaters, a shirt on a girl doesn't normally suck down into her clevage. It should 'tent across' between the breasts. If I'm designing a bikini, I want it to closely follow the body shape. But not on a T-shirt!

And I agree that the lower part of the jacket layer should be as long as the skirt, so we can have long coats without having to wear prims.

Ummm, people, you are aware that the "clothing" is all just a texture on the avatar, right? And when the clothing is "loose," all it does is move the polygons of the avatar, so they puff out? (Or "shift on their normals," to be technical.)

The only piece of real "clothing" in SL is the skirt, and it's impossible to make it match the torso perfectly, because there is a gap, and because it doesn't come into contact with the same polygons on different avatars (it depends on the gender, and the "fatness". With male avatars it actually dives beneath the polys on the back. With female avatars, it doesn't.)

Please, Lindens, do not make the "jacket" be partly on the Avatar and partly on the Skirt, or no one will ever be able to do a seamless untucked shirt again!

I will agree that it would be nice to have more pieces of actual clothing. I'd vote for an A-line piece went over the shoulders and reached to the floor. That would not only make it possible to do jackets that didn't stick to the buttocks, but would make robes that weren't cinched at the waist, tunics, long vests, empire dresses, and all kinds of other clothing. If there were a hood attached to it, it would be almost perfect!

Yes, we understand that. That's the problem.

Which is why I want the "jacket" be made into a separate piece of clothing like the skirt.

Please, Lindens, make the "jacket" be a separate piece of clothing from the shirt, so that we don't have to texture up a matching jacket and shirt combo to make a loose open jacket. What's the point of having the "opening" of the jacket modifiable if you can't open the shirt to match?

I would also add that I have yet to see a pair of baggy pants (reasonably baggy, not the pathetic 'gangsta' wear thats all over SL) look decent.

This is true, and this is how it should be. Can you imagine the polygon count increase if clothing was seperate? No, the lindens aren't going to do that, (or shouldn't) Here is how it SHOULD be done.

1. The avatar should be PROPERLY mapped for texturing, instead of this loose mapping we have now.

2. The poly count should be increased around the waist line. Reason being, if you do that, than you can warp those extra polys down into a skirt or dress. All modification to clothing should be done with poly manipulation on the avatar itself. Example: To make a skirt, extend the extra waist poly's out and down to the ground. With no skirt, the poly's stay where they are and no detail is lost. (just a few poly higher prim count than necessary for normal wear)

3. Allow the user to map avatar textures just like normal textures. IE...use bigger textures for more detail, rotate and adjust the size and repeat.

4. To solve the breast issue, just extend out the chest cavity points out to be in line with the breasts. Create a slider for this for clothing alone.

In general, the problem with clothing itself isn't as much the models themselves, but the mapping and manipulation of the models. This can all be done (with the exception of the dress portion) with the existing avatar models.

A lot of this, if implemented, wouldn't end up being what people are picturing. If the shirt or jacket were made into a seperate mesh object like the skirt currently is it would need to sit off the avatar body as far as the skirt waist sits off the av waist. It's due to technical limitations rather than an aesthetic decisions. It needs to be able to conform to all the possible body morphs without the av polygons sticking through the shirt polygons. The skirt floats so far off the av because it's a much simpler model than the lower body of the av with fewer polygons so it can't be tight without having lots of penetration issues. The same would be true of a shirt mesh unless they made it have as many polygons as the upper av body. Avatars are the biggest source of viewer lag and doubling the number of polygons would add to that considerably. I doubt people would be very happy with it. In order to have shirts stretch between the breasts they'd have to add additional morph targets. All of the shape sliders blend between different variations of the avatar model. A morph target that's made to mimic a shirt stretched between the breasts would only look correct on high collared tops. You wouldn't be able to have a plunging neckline or it would be obvious that the shirt looks that way because there's no longer any actual gap between the breasts at all. Not trying to poopoo any of these suggestions but I wouldn't get your hopes up

your right about the breast thing... it would only be useful on t-shirts, and other things with a high collar. To do it any other way would require two extra morph targets. one for the amount of "droop" between the breasts, and one for how far up this "droop" goes. you can create a virtual cavity for the shirt by just moving one of the chest points back to it's original position, and moving it down thus creating a cavity inside the top. Now, doing this will mess up the texture mapping, so it should be noted that by implementing this, you are creating more problems than you started out with. As such, this is the only way to get a "proper" shirt.

Aside from that, the rest of my previous post is still valid.

I offer the following image as demonstration, and request that there be a slider to allow a piece of clothing to follow the "outside contour" rather than the "inside contour". This is independent of looseness, but the program could build the contour the same way it handles looseness, and I'm perfectly happy if it's only really useful for high-collared clothing.

http://pics.livejournal.com/anyaristow/pic/000014rg/g1

I created a voting proposal for this:

http://secondlife.com/vote/get_feature.php?get_id=2072

Then they need to do that.
Not as much as all the prims people use to make up for the lousy avatar model. One avatar with prim hair can drop my FPS more than two without.

The surface the shirt texture should be plastered on is the convex hull of the torso. There are O(n log n) algorithms for convex hull where n = number of points, and moreover the only seriously non-convex portion of the torso is the bust--how large is n given those constraints? How time consuming would it be to calculate and cache the convex hull?

what could be nice is to be able to add extra maps in a shirt ofr example, a height map that define a normal axis deformation of clothes, it would allow to push the chest between the brests so it looks like cloth rather than the "vaacum feel", it could allow also a finer way to sculpt the limb shape and clothing look.