SL ? Poker is a Game of SKILL and Legal.

Before Anyone starts flaming me and stuff. At least take the time to read what I have to say as I am not for Slot Machines or anything else.

Under SL's Rules AND THE LAW, Game's of SKILL is ALLOWED in SL. Even the USA Government admitted that Poker IS a game of SKILL and it is the Main Loophole that every Poker Tournament Assosiation in the world use's to allow ANYONE of Legal Age to Play Poker or Play in Poker Tournaments that do give Real Life $Money$ Prize's.
WSOP is but 1 and only 1 of these such groups, but it is also one that every has at least heard of so it the one I will take time to mention.

So. If Poker is Legal and a Game of Chance, why take it out of SL? I mean it broke no rules or laws.

Heck, before you say what about Live Table Games with Poker, I will just say> Make it where Poker Tournaments ONLY can be played.
..

As far as Slot Machines and BJ and the Rest, I not like them, never have, but even if I did, in a REAL LIFE CASINO THEY ARE REGULATED!
Do I believe SLOT's or other Games of CHANCE should be allowed BACK into SL?
NOT WITHOUT BEING REGULATED!
HELL YA! MAKE THEM ALL PAYOUT % REGULATED OR LEAVE THEM OUT!

Why?
As it stands in SL you can STEAL and yes I mean STEAL from other Players buy puting out games that have UNREGUALTED PAYOUT %'s.
You put Slot Machines in game and put a Payout Percent % of 10% and never tell the Players! Come on, if all real Casino's was that way, then the MOB's would still be running them and no one would win but the Casino's.

You want OPEN GAMBLING BACK IN SL??? THEN WORK A WAY FOR IT TO BE REGULATED! Or? Shut up and leave them out as you know dang well that as a Casino owned with Slot's in them you only cared about 1 thing and that was how many Players you could rip off at 1 time before someone put a stop to it.

...

SL = POKER IS A GAME OF SKILL.

I'm a semi-pro poker player in real, and as sorry as I am for poker to go poof in SL, there is a lot of luck involved in poker.

To give a simple example, your KK vs my AA means that 20% of the time you'll lose. If you win, it's luck, like any other casino game. Gambling by definition is winning despite the odds against you.

Having said that, poker "bars" should do what every other RL bar does n the US to "get away with it". Make people pay a cover charge and offer freerolls.

Poker is one of the worst games to have in SL. 3 or 4 people in the same room, or 3 or 4 on voice/IM's can kill the other players wallets fast.

Do you make a wager? YES
IS there some chance and luck involved? YES
Is it banned then? You betcha

so just becuase you dont like slots (and the like) its totally ok for them to be banned, but noo not poker a tried and true casino/wagering/random numbers game...

right

Gentle men and Ladies,

IF YOU WANNA BE THAT PERFECT ABOUT IT THEN YOU NEED CONSIDER THIS>

Under them Same LAW's , SL is a GAME and does involve BOTH Luck and SKILL just like Poker Does and Money Does change hands.

When you came to this "GAME" and decided to INVEST MONEY into it, it was just like sittin at a Poker Tourny Table and Buying in, as YOU WAS Taking a CHANCE on a GAME that you MIGHT HAVE A LITTLE LUCK and WIN IN THE GAME AND MAKE SOME MONEY.

THEREFORE>> UNDER YOUR OWN DEFINITIONS>>
SECOND LIFE itself is ILLEGAL to play.


TYBALT>>>>
Do you make a wager? YES
IS there some chance and luck involved? YES
Is it banned then? You betcha

>>>>>>>>>>> THAT SAME CRAP IS APPLIED TO PLAYING SECOND LIFE

Now, I do know the Law's and crap and not need people to smart off before they know what they are talking about just cause they not believe in Poker.

Second Life itself is Illegal in itself and they damn well know it and so does California.
BUT>> They are ALLOWED To Have this game cause it is ALSO and MOSTLY Considered a GAME OF SKILL..
And you know what? POKER IS ALSO CONSIDERED A GAME OF SKILL.
Sure, just like SL or ANYTHING in life there is some Luck to it, but it is mainly based on Skill as the Players Control what happens in it and not happen in it.

In short to you and those that wanna say Poker has some luck and money does change hands for RL Value, then stop and think wth Second Life itself is and what the heck would happen if people Petitioned the State's to Bann the whole game based on them same Laws and getting it done cause no matter what kind of game it is, Money can be Made in it if you Wager in it.
And BUYING Lyden or LL in Second Life is Wagering that you will either get what you want or MAKE A PROFIT.

Only other way out of that for Second Life if they not use the Same damn loophole I sugest to Keep Poker in SL, is for the to hire every Player in this game and make them employee's.
At which time it would no longer be classified as a Game.


So, be hard ass's and say that no matter what Poker is gambling cause money changes hands and I bet you and SL that within 6 months they will be forced to shut down or move servers and game outside USA.

How can I say that? Easy, one of thier lawers can read what I just wrote and be able to tell you in 5 minutes the catch 22 to denying a game of Skill within a game of skill based on the BS that you guys named cause then they would be admitting that they also know thier game is considered illegal under them same terms.


Good day and Grief this or spam it all you like. Fact's are Fact's.

P.S.
when you pay your Tax's this year, ask the IRS if they have a listing for SL Players who made money, they will tell you no, it considered gambling.
Tell them you play Poker and they say no problem sir, that profession is listed right here, how much did you Make this year?

when i pay SL i get services rendered, i dont pay them for a random chance, same with products inside of SL


sorry you dont see poker as a game of chance, but it is

same reason its not allowed here is the same reason video poker isnt allowed in my home town

and ps yes i do file my SL earnings with the irs, its the same as being self employed since i work my ass off and i file as that

Yep, Same thing on the web, people can skype/IM using instant messengers.. that's why I've never played online poker for money. Groups of people collude with one another to scam people out of money.

Really good point.

In most European countries playing poker for money is forbidden.

That's the problem of SL/LL. There is more than the USA in the world (of SL) !!

In my country it's even forbidden to organise a game when you have to pay for it and you can win money with it. Only the government has the rights to do that.

all casinos and virtual gambling websites must be licenced and be subject to scrutiny of the gambling commission in the USA, SL is a loophole that has allowed people to skirt these rules, now with the total amount of real money being made from these loopholes it is getting to the point where the authorities are asking questions. You want SL shut down because of this? because that is exactly what could happen, the casino industry is pretty powerfull and has a lot of lawyers....

Mr Hax, Poker is a game that involves both chance and skill. If you place a wager on the outcome of a game of Poker therefore, you are in violation of the new rules.

As for your (difficult to decipher) notion that SL is as much a gamble as Poker, isn't it somewhat ironic that most of the people at yesterday's Casino protests had no payment info on file, so SL is hardly a gamble from their points of view is it?

I like this one. Nice. We work with it.
SECOND LIFE IS A GAME << Remember this one>> GAME
POKER IS A GAME

Poker/Second Life .. What do they Both have in common with that statement?
Everything.

1. Game ?
Both are GAMES

2. Chance and Skill
Both involve this.

3. Place Wager on outcome of GAME.
Yup, BOTH GAME's Involve this.

So, why is only 1 in Violation?


When a Player decide's to BUY MORE Linden $ in this game with the notion that they will recieve MORE MONEY THAN THEY ARE BUYING IN WITH, it is Gambling.

4. Does Poker and SL both ALLOW this? YES!

5. Can Money or Bet's be made to Effect the Outcome of the game in Favor of the person Placing the Bet/Wagers ? HELL YES! In Both Games!

Before you say liar, think of it this way.
2 Players >>
1 without paying anything at all into the game.
1 Buy's a Island and wants to start his own shop or club or something but is buying the Island and Linden $ with the Intent that they will Make money off that Purchase.

Which one do you think will make More money?
The person that placed no wager on the game at all?
Or the Person that Placed a Wager and bought into the game with the intent on winning in the game and making money?

Money changing hands and rebuy's and Bet's does Effect the Outcome of the game.

6. CAN ANYTHING OF REAL MONEY VALUE BE WON ? HELL YES TO BOTH GAMES.
If it is CONSIDERED a GAME under the LAW, then any profit a PLAYER recieve's from playing that GAME is considered WON.

7. The ONLY way that Second Life GAME would not be considered breaking the Law is IF they had no way for a Person to WIN anything of real Money Value in the game.


I stop here and let you and SL think about that for a little bit.
Heck, after all, it not like I am in a court room enforceing Gambling Law's against SL.
But, I do stand by my decission, for SL to say that THEY know that POKER Tounament's is Gambling under the Law and that it is NOT more Skill Based than Chance, then they are ALSO Admitting that THIER SL GAME is Illegal.
And you do not think that them Legal butt's will not use this fact again SL if or when they try and shut them down or force them out of the USA? Then you guess wrong!

Second Life can once again have thier Legal team consider this and they will see it is true and YES the Politcal ass's that would wanna shut a game down like this CAN AND WOULD USE SECOND LIFE'S OWN CHOICE's AGAINST THEM.

>
POKER Tounament's Require Skill.
Second Life Requires Skill.

POKER is a SKILL BASED GAME
SECOND LIFE IS A SKILL BASED GAME




-- On a offbeat thought.>
How come all you second life Players not say, get in a WSOP Tournament ?
Oh wait! Cause they cost you an Investment of around $10,000 US to even think about playing that game.
You know what tho, UNLIKE Second Life, once you BUY-IN to that Game, there is no damn Rebuy's. You can play the game as best you can and prey your skill is good enough to win the game, but in the end, unlike Second Life, you are only given so many play chips to play with and it not matter if you have $100Million Real Life, it not help you one damn bit in that tournament.

Besides>> Most of you would smart off>
Hell no, I not paying that much to play a damn game that I am NO GOOD AT. What? Not good at it? Thought is was Luck!





You just described BOTH GAME's. Poker and Second Life.





This is where Skill come's in. Even without Voice com's or anything else there is always some team play in most Poker Tournament's even in the WSOP.
Not mean they are going to win if the player they are playing against is SKILLED enough of a player to outplay them.

Also, to stop most of this and the Wagering and so forth that everyone keep's talking about, understand this, Tounament Poker is a hell of a lot Diferent than Live Poker.
I am a Tournament Player.

So, I would be happy if SECOND LIFE just allowed POKER TOURNAMENT's.
And yes. That could be Regulated and Enforced real easy.
Just make it where Only Poker Tournament table's are allowed.


POKER TOURNAMENT
Everyone has the SAME Start as everyone else in the Game.
No amount of money outside the game can effect what happens IN THE GAME once the game has started.
Require's SKILL to last and win.
Can be Referred to as any Normal Game you BUY at any store! As you go to the Store and Pay around $40 to enter a game and play it and you DO NOT PAY ANY MORE TO PLAY THAT GAME.
That is the same with a Poker Tournament. You would Pay $40 to Play a Game and NO MORE. Either you win or Lose in that game and just like the game's you buy at the store, the Outcome is EFFECTED BY YOUR SKILL AT THAT GAME.

You guy's have come up with a Few Reason's to NOT allow LIVE POKER back into the game? Short of argueing for life about it, I pause a second to find this out>>

WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH >> POKER TOURNAMENTS?

Gambling is Illegal where I live to include any game of chance or game where a player's skill can not effect the outcome of the game.
POKER TOURNAMENT's IS LEGAL HERE.
That is why I play them even online. I can go to the local Poker Room or play online Legaly as long as I can prove the Winning/Profit made at end of the year came from playing Poker and NOT other form's of Gambling which includes all slot machines, BJ Table's and so forth.

Oh and yes, I do make my living playing Poker Tournament's and have for last 9 years.
It is my RL Job. lmao

*Sigh*

What definition of "game" does Second Life qualify for?

Games:

Major key elements identified in this context are tools and rules which define the overall context of game and which in turn produce skill, strategy, and chance.
-----
Second Life's tools do not produce strategy or chance. They make objects that do nothing or scripts that can do almost anything.

With these tools you can CREATE games, not play them.
-----
Definitions of games:
* fun: the activity is chosen for its light-hearted character
* separate: it is circumscribed in time and place
* uncertain: the outcome of the activity is unforeseeable
* non-productive
* governed by rules: the activity has rules that are different from everyday life
* fictitious: it is accompanied by the awareness of a different reality
-----
* Second Life is not always fun. Content Creation is a chore.
* Second Life may or may not be separate from Real Life, depends on the user.
* Second Life is uncertain sometimes, certain other times.
* Second Life is not unproductive. There are many people who run businesses which are completely self-supporting, if not profitable anywhere from supplementary income to complete income.
* Second Life has few rules beyond rules of community standards. None that define a game, only the conduct.
* Second Life is only partly fictitious, how much so is dependant on the user. People who run businesses will say that it is NOT fictitious and RPs will say that the RP is, but not anything outside that (to varying degrees).
-----
Computer game designer Chris Crawford attempted to define the term game using a series of dichotomies:
1. Creative expression is art if made for its own beauty, and entertainment if made for money. (This is the least rigid of his definitions. Crawford acknowledges that he often chooses a creative path over conventional business wisdom, which is why he rarely produces sequels to his games.)
2. A piece of entertainment is a plaything if it is interactive. Movies and books are cited as examples of non-interactive entertainment.
3. If no goals are associated with a plaything, it is a toy. (Crawford notes that by his definition, (a) a toy can become a game element if the player makes up rules, and (b) The Sims and SimCity are toys, not games.) If it has goals, a plaything is a challenge.

Second Life fails this. There are no goals beyong what the user sets for themselves.

4. If a challenge has no “active agent against whom you compete,” it is a puzzle; if there is one, it is a conflict. (Crawford admits that this is a subjective test. Some games with noticeably algorithmic artificial intelligence can be played as puzzles; these include the patterns used to evade ghosts in Pac-Man.)

Are there people who challenge the Second Life user? Does the system?

5. Finally, if the player can only outperform the opponent, but not attack them to interfere with their performance, the conflict is a competition. (Competitions include racing and figure skating.) However, if attacks are allowed, then the conflict qualifies as a game.

Which does Second Life follow, AS A WHOLE?

again sigh

1 as above sl does not fit into any definition of a game, it uses game technologys yes but so does pixar movies, you dont call them a game do you?

its a internet platform, you may choose to treat it like a game, i choose to treat it like a workplace, and a development suit, and if you ask the founding lindens about it, thats their feelings on it too, if they wanted to make a game they would have added in some play mechanics goals and scoring

2 in my SL there is no chance, i just dont throw confetti in the wind and let whatever come, when i want things i go out and i make them happen, it involves work

3 ive never placed a wager ON SL its self, i pay a rental fee for my little chunk of a server i just dont have money to piss into the wind on stupid crap, this is called business

because one is paying money for a random 5 of 52 numbers being given to you and the off chance they beat the other players random numbers to increase your money

the other requires alot of hard work, research and testing to provide something that is actually worth a fair monetary trade <- goods and services, supply and demand all that fundamental economic stuff that makes the world spin?

What ever you 2 thing.
SECOND LIFE is a GAME.

It was Designed as a Game.
It was Classified as a Game.
It is Advertised as a Game.
Second Life itself has Stated over and over that it is a GAME.

Beyound that point, you 2 have NOTHING worth saying yet.

Now I understand that you 2 are the type that would love to classify anything as Gambling and that is your right.

Under your same BS tho, Second life is a Game and under your own standards is Illegal as hell.
It just that no one has complained to the state about it or made a fuss about it.

This Game reminds me of another game that is a little simular but not the same, it is Entrophia Universe.
...

Anyway>
Your Main Complaint about Poker Tournaments seems to be that it is a GAME in which MONEY IS INVOLVED and a person CAN MAKE A PROFIT BY PLAYING THE GAME.

Welp, once again, SECOND LIFE falls under them same damn standards by Law.

under my own standards its a internet platform, its AOL in 3d simple as that

my main point is that POKER is a game of CHANCE not INVESTMENT into a TECHNOLOGY, or a COST OF OPERATING


AGAIN I DO NOT GAMBLE WITH SL, I PAY FOR SERVICES RENDERED

under your pathetic almost psychotic ramblings paying for a web host is a gamble too but over here in the REAL WORLD its a SERVICE

dude do you not see this point, i do not PAY linden labs for a totally random chance of getting allotted server space

POKER = RANDOM SELECTION FROM 52 VALUES AND THE ABILITY TO GUESS THE OTHER PLAYERS RANDOM SELECTION

if it pisses you off so much leave, if not have a poker night with buddies like normal, non gambling addicted ppl do

im done in this thread

IF all you did in Second Life is rent a Server and EVERYONE else did the same, then you might be right.
But, that is not all that goes one.
Also you are not renting, you are Investing as if all you did was rent land space in Second life and never built anything or sold anything like some players do, then you are still investing, not renting a server.
how can I say that?
That space you are renting has a RL Value beyound the Tax/useage Fee you pay Liden Lab's. In which case if it was Real Life would be like Buying Property and then paying tax to the state. lol.

But hey, it not like the Value of that Property in the game can change?
Or the Value of anything else in the game can change?
Even the Value of the Linden $ Can change?

Ok, let's see here.
All them Value's can not be Controled BY YOU or really by Liden Lab's as there is more than what, 100,000 Random and None Random things that can effect them?
The Stock Market system itself that the Linden $ base's itself on is more Random than anything even tho SL try's to control it with Cut Off Breakers to try and Keep the Value's from going too HI or LOW too fast.

Let me see here, in Poker you say I can be dealt 52 Random cards that will effect the outcome of the game. Seem's like a very low Random Number.
I like 52 a lot better than the over 100,000+ Random #'s involved in dealing with the other 3 things. lmao

--------

And Before you start on me about ONLY renting Space, I bet you everything you have that IF not ONLY YOU but everyone else in Second Life that is so called renting Space in Second Life was told Tomorrow that ALL Land in Second Life no longer had Any Value beyound what you are Paying Second Life for Rent, you and everyone one else would be flamming beyound belief and crying that you just got ripped off.
Now that would be funny as hell.
Funny thing would be that they could use your Own words against you as saying that all you do in the game is Rent Space from them and therefore as long as that is all you are doing you should have no complaint about getting ripped off or anything else if they did such a thing.
Oh, and another thing that would be cool, how about they make it to where you can BUY LINDEN $'s, BUT YOU CAN NOT SELL LINDEN $'s?

Oh ya. That would work!
I mean you keep saying how you are only paying for a service rendered to Second Life only, then IF they did such a thing you would have No Complaints and no one else would either right?

Please point me to where Linden Labs has called SL a game.
www.secondlife.com/whatis



Let me point out that first sentence again

Second Life is a 3-D virtual world.

1. Is Poker such a game of skill enough not to also be a game of chance? Debatable.

2. Is Poker gambling? Of course it is.

Number 2 trumps number 1 reguardless. Sorry.



We need to use common sense as part of this ban.

Even when legal - everyone knows poker for money is gambling.

you pay for a service, just like AOL


no i pay for services rendered,becuase i pay premium and teir does not mean that i hold stock in the company


i have no idea


im sorry i did not relise that anyone outside of SL gave a rats ass about land value, that is untill it becomes a US$ profit then the irs does



it does in RL too, noone classifies real estate, inflation, or the stock in the same group as poker in RL, huge difference there tween investment banking and anteing up 50 bucks a hand in a random numbers game


ill tell that to my broker next time i see her, yes random variables can EFFECT them, the entore process is NOT BASED AROUND TOTALLY RANDOM NUMBERS, heh it might be more fun tho, 500$ on microsoft, Oh no microsoft landed on black you loose



again yes it can be EFFECTED by them, but its entire BASIS OF OPERATION is NOT RANDOM NUMBERS, poker is not EFFECTED by random numbers, its ENTIRE CONCEPT AND GAMEPLAY MECHANICS is RANDOM NUMBERS


probally, but i can tell you that more than 6 or 7 ppl would be hollering vs this little gambling stink

me personally i have 512 linden dollars in my land, my first land + other land i accquired for free from buddies that moved on and needed to ditch teir ....

yes im a special case but to me its no big deal, id quit paying and move on with life


you dont find it funny to your case, thats bad mojo man



see above



that would be totally cool, if you were here before the days of GOM and LINDEX you could not do either, you made things or got a SL job so you could buy cool stuff

everything was MUCH MUCH cheaper and the quality of items were better, becuase ppl didnt make things to scrape a quick buck, they made them becuase they wanted to and it was amusing to them

and besides, remove the L$<->US$ factor and you can gamble again!

take turbine games for instance, asherons call or DDO you can gamble all freakin day long, becuase you cant buy pyreal or platnium, nor can you cash out to real money ... the fbi isnot crawling up their asses



oh i would bitch, but i would also quit paying

besides you really ought to know you have no soapbox to stand on, its not Linden Labs doing it, Linden Labs got the word months ago, but if you bothered to read rather than post bitch and wine post THE FBI CRAWLED UP THEIR ASSES, LAUNCHED AN INVESTIGATION, AND FOUND THEM IN THE WRONG

i dont blame them 1 bit i dont want trouble with the FBI

so go flame the FBI website, and with your attitude expect a funny looking van parked out side of your house from now on

I like this idea and I see no reason why it couldn't be good way of doing things. Clubs charge a cover all the time and a freeroll would be just giving money away. Sounds like it covers all the bases really.