[News] SL - Blurring the boundaries: When real laws and virtual worlds collide

The Second Life community was recently rocked by allegations of a child porn ring operating in Second Life, which has opened a huge can of worms on the wider issue of what should and shouldn’t be acceptable in a virtual environment, especially when conflicts occur between the laws of one country and another.

Head over to the Stratics Second Life site to read our editorial on the issue here and discuss the points raised.

Broccoli Curry
Stratics Second Life News Team

It's a sick sick world...

That was part of the point of the article - to show that it's not a "Second Life problem" but something more generally attributable to the anonymity of the internet, and where people can gather a problem can occur.

A lot of the media coverage hasn't made the differentiation between "ageplay" and "sexual ageplay" either, a point we felt important to make.

Broccoli

i have heard that it is possible to buy child avies in SL now. This I find very disturbing and has sickened many of my friends in SL. Hopefully something can be done about this, as some of them were seen in the sex areas in SL.

This was part of what the article was trying to get across. There's nothing inherently wrong with having child avatars in Second Life, or roleplaying children.

Until you introduce a 'sexual' element into the mix. That's when most people tend to start to feel uncomfortable.

Anyone wearing a child avatar should have enough intelligence not to wear it to an area where there is 'adult activity' going on. If they aren't, then the staff working there should eject any child avatars if they're responsible.

If, however, it's a sex related area that is designed to attract child avatars, and permit/encourage sexual activity amongst child avatars or between adult/child avatars - regardless of the age of the human player - then I don't believe it has any place in Second Life.

Broccoli

Sure. If someone is roleplaying an innocent child, they should expect to be refused admittance at an adults-only sort of location - and that would be part of the role being played, after all: "You know children aren't allowed in here. Where's your Mommy?" Or, "Hey! This is a biker bar! Get the hell out of here, kid!"

If someone is roleplaying a child for sexual purposes in a public place, not only is that now expressly banned by LL, it is contributing to a known and well-publicized threat to the survival of SL. Should be treated accordingly, IMO.

It can be worse, though. The other day I was flying around one of the Japanese "Tokyo theme" sims when I discovered, in one corner, a "webcam promotion" - apparantly about being able to hire "webcam girls" to log avatars into Second Life. They had a display board with names and (real life) photographs of the girls. Their birthdates were listed. One of them was in 1992.

However, there was no evidence of anything actively *sexual* - does this count? (I reported it anyway.. *shudder*)

Um... now? You've been able to buy child avvies for as long as I've been in world, and the ones that were around when I started were pretty dusty.

Are you easily sickened? Cuz there is *nothing* wrong with playing a child avvie in SL. Nothing.

It's when there is sex involved with those avvies dat it becomes a problem. Which isn't a problem with me, cuz why would I wanna do that anyway? Sounds kinda boring.

Mari

I agree - even though, for some reason I can't fully explain, being around a "child" who I know is actually an adult gives me the willies, so I usually avoid them like the plague. That's my problem, not the "child's".

There are some people who honestly think SL is all about sex, nothing more/nothing less, so it makes sense that those people would automatically assume the worst when they see a child avatar. Again, that's *their* problem, not the "child's".

Are you saying SL is not about sex? They implemented voice for Cyber baby!

I'll say it. No SL is NOT all about sex. Consider all the media press on the business side of the house. Neweek, Time, fortune, New Yorker and countless other well known well respected Media Agencies are looking closely at the goings on here. MIcrosoft, Dell, SUN Systems, Nike, BMW and now RL clothing designers are coming into this 'game'.
If our little virtual world was nothing more than glorified X rated website... they wold not be here.

Sex like in RL is everywhere and permeates everything.. we live with it in RL... we have to live with it here. Since this world is policed by us... we ( Collectively ) are responsible for what is allowed. Owners of Mature sims had better make sure they and thier staff are 'AWARE' of what is going on in thier sims.. the excuse that.. "oh well they signed up so it on them" won't stand long if something bad really happens.

We can complain to the heavens that Parents in RL NEED to watch what the heck thier offspring are doing online..... they don't and they won't... so we have to do it for them.

why would someone want a child av?

This is a genuine question, I don't understand the attraction...

Neither do I but I'm a hedgehog..

Let me state off the bat that I do not do age play.
But regardless of that, because of the latest blog by SL, someone has to take a stand for common sense and human rights.
I'm going to get flammed, and you know what? I don't care. Someone has to say this.

I see nothing wrong with two consenting adults doing age play. In fact, I see nothing wrong with two consenting adults going as far as one person dressing up as a child and roleplaying age play.
NO CHILDREN ARE INVOLVED OR HURT.
If two consenting adults want to age play in Second Life, that's the equivalent of people dressing up.
NO CHILDREN ARE INVOLVED OR HURT.
Hell, if an adult wants to dress up as a child, have his/her pic taken and sell them, I see nothing wrong with that.
NO CHILDREN ARE INVOLVED OR HURT.

Bare in mind this is all consenting adults. Again, CONSENTING ADULTS. Not children, not forced but CONSENTING ADULTS.

If someone likes to age play and enjoys it with their partner and they are both consenting adults, then fine. Age play to your hearts content.

It's fantasy. In this case, it is NOT REAL. See, the reality is horrible. Really truely horrible. But really now, just because someone plays in a fantasy doesn't mean they want to do it for real. Real means consiquenses. Real means you live with what you've done.

Fantasy means no one gets hurt and it's over. You are in control. Even in rape fantasies. (Remember the word fantasy) the "rapee" has some control! Tell me, how many people out there really want to live out their kinkiest fantasies without any control? I know I don't. I want to be sure my partner and I are safe after the fun is done.

Do I agree to real life child molestation? Of course not. I don't agree to kiddie porn, either. However, I have no right to judge two consenting adults to role play whatever sexual fantasy they have.

I have my own fantasies. Yes, they can seem horrible to some people, some people find them very arousing. Do you have fantasies that you're afraid people will judge you on?

My point is this: Yes, child pornography is wrong. Molesting a child is a horrible, horrible thing. But age-play (two consenting adults role playing a child-adult or child-child sexual encounter) is not wrong! Why? Because with age-play NO CHILDREN ARE INVOLVED OR HURT! And it's fantasy!

And the cries of "protecting the children" are useless here. There ARE no children here (or should not be - I'm all for the age verification that SL is implimenting). Those cries of "we have to protect the children" are just a smoke screen for "I don't agree with it, I don't like it, it should be banned!"

Well, look. I don't like age-play. however, since NO CHILDREN are involved, I don't think is should be banned. By all means, stop real life child porn from being sold. I'm all for that. But banning age play or child avies? No. Ban age-play, then what's next?

You.

I had to say it. Someone had to. Go ahead and flame me. I don't care and I'm not afraid.

So because you see no problem with it, you think nobody else should be allowed to.

So you can impose your standards on me, but I can't impose mine on you?

This is the dilemma.

Just because something is consentual it doesn't automatically make it acceptable, whether you're involving real world laws or not (and, of course, under German law, simulated child porn is illegal even though by some quirk of US law it's permitted).

Broccoli

woah woah woah woah.

I was NOT imposing my opinions on you or Germany or anyone else.

I was stating something no one has said or has the guts to say.

NO ONE.

Seems to me that everyone else was imposing their standards on these two consenting adults who were banned.

I was standing up for the unpopular viewpoint because I know, with the way things are going, eventually we all are going to be next. I was not imposing.

Funny how when one voice screams what people don't want to hear it becomes an imposition, but when the mob goes after the lone person it is not.....

Actually, the "unpopular viewpoint" in this situation is that Linden Lab are perfectly within their rights to do this, and should have done it years ago".

Broccoli

Stating a view is not imposing a view. Even stating it forcefully is not imposing it.

Establishing the principle of Thought Crimes in SL is imposing a view. Ultimately, many views, mostly arbitrary and negative.

Doesn't matter what view gets imposed first; establish hte principle, and pretty soon you get every crank out there demanding that his/her/its view get imposed too, and opponents silenced or banned. The main condition for imposing a view then becomes whether you can whip up a vociferous enough mob to enforce your chosen taboo and evict your chosen enemies.

That is what the responsible debate is about.

Nothing has to be imposed on ANYBODY. Once illegal activity is dealt with, all this "bad , evil" stuff should be placed in clearly defines areas , sims set up for it, or private land areas. It should not go on in public areas. If these acts are of no interest to you or offend you, don't visit those areas. If it is in an unauthorized zone, then by all means report it. I don't see the difficulty with it.

I love a good debate.

Okay. Again, a misinterpretation. Sorry.

I never said that Linden Labs should not have banned them. Linden Labs has the right to do what they want in this case. It's their baseball. They can take it and go home. (If I were running the company, as long as there was not real kiddie porno or sex going on, I personally wouldn't have banned them, but that point is moot).

What I am stating as unpopular is the viewpoint that there is nothing wrong with age-play in SL or in someone's private home between two consenting adults. Yes, my humble opinion, but it's an opinion no one is saying either out of fear or misunderstanding.

Read the thread and several others on this topic. There are tons of posts of "Why do people have child avies anyway?" etc. It seems to me that this thread tends to lean towards not only saying LL did what they should have, but it goes further: posts saying (and yes I'm paraphrasing, sorry), "child avies don't belong in a parcel with adult situtations", etc. What I am saying "If there's a consenting adult behind that screen, like there should be, why not?"

And if no one says that, it will escalate. Already LL has blogged for us to keep an eye out and report "broadly offensive content". And all of this between consenting adults.

Don't you think that opens a dangerous door?

My point is this, whether it's LL's game or not, that's not my issue. My issue is with the attitudes that a lot of people are standing on that worries me.

To me, it is a far great sin to stop the freedom two (or more) consenting adults to persue whatever fantasy they wish (without harm to others) than what these two banned people did.

So whether I am the popular voice or not, doesn't matter. I saw something I felt needed to be said. I hadn't seen it said anywhere else.

*shrugs* maybe I missed something. Anyway, again, my humble opinion, my little voice just explaining.

Please don't take this as imposing.

I've gone into this quite a number of times, to the point where it becomes difficult to write about it all again. I should also be doing what I get paid for in the real world. but it's Friday, too.

Here's some of the big reasons people play kids in SL.

1. A way to recapture some of the spirit of youth. Much like the old Twilight Zone episode, Kick The Can, it allows one to 'be' a child, and run and jump, and play unencumbered with the responsibilities of adulthood. It's a fun escape to a simpler time of their lives.

2. Some may have had bad childhoods. Many SL kids have faced childhoods filled with illness (one I know did not have much mobility as a real life child, and is one of the more physicallyt active kids in SL as a result. Hard to keep up with her sometimes!), or with abuse. Many (by no means all) were victims of sexual or other abuses as a child, and this is allowing them to "rewrite" some of those childhood experiences with much healthier ones. I fit within this camp, as well as #1 and #3

3. Many, and related to #2, also want to have the childhoods they could not, with all the toys and goodies they may have been denied for some reason. Always wanted that Easy Bake Oven? Go buy or make it in SL. Want the big swingset, or slide, or whatever? All yours for a few pennies, and you won't looks silly (or, perhaps, have to reinforce it) to make it possible.

4. One I know plays a kid as a way to virtually keep her own RL child alive in a form.

5. Some enjoy the roleplaying challenge of playing a kid. It isn't always as easy as one might think.

6. A few feel more comfortable in the role of a child, for whatever reason. While some of these might fall under various "philia" subsets (adult babies, for example), not all do.

7. sexual ageplayers. I am not going to speculate on the motivations of such. II do suspect, however, that many who did do this in SL did it with the intent to make money at it. I will also add that sexual ageplay is, overall, a very small portion of the kids you'll find in-world, and SL kids themselves are a small segment of the overall SL population.

Mari

Thanks for the response.

I mean personally I don't see a problem with child avs either... Peados aren't into computer games they're into the real thing...But there's no doubt that there are some creeps knocking about on SL.

For a prude looking in, it'd be mortifying to see a child av running around one of the sex zones... So I can understand why there's a sense of unease about it.

I know that what you see isn't always what you get, but until ages are confirmed on SL or profiles are filled in with full details/photos perhaps child avs should be put on hold...

I dunno about all other kids, but the ones I know are not gonna be around "sex zones" anyway. I'm sure some folks have pushed dat envelope before, but not at all the common. I mean, we're kids - get it?

As for creeps on SL, I doubt many of them would choose to play a kid. Again, surely exceptions - but most I think would not.

But now, you can pry my avvie from my cold, dead hands, I think - an I'm not gonna give you any more real life information than I already have, thankoo.

Mari

Hmm it's been possible to buy child AV's & make them for 3 years, also toasters, vacumn cleaners & refrigerators if you are into appliance rape sex. Which is disturbing too .........

Ahh yes. The Church of Appliantology.*

*Frank Zappa. Joe's Garage. Act II