2 Questions regarding prisoner treatment.

This is something one of my "way to friggin smart to be 16" afterschool interns asked me after she participated in a discussion on the topic in class.
(paraphrased, her questions ...not the teacher's)

1. Why does the U.S. try so hard to limit any occurance of Religon (the major three) in public, yet bends over backward to satisfy the religous needs of "war prisoners (her term, I corrected her to the much more accurate "enemy combatants"?

My answer: I dunno, we are morons....

2. Since the U.S. is making so many provisions to accomodate the beliefs of military prisoners, can federal penitentary inmates who study Islam sue for the same treatment? (I figure she meant the food flown in from Florida, the rubber gloves when handling the book, five prayers a day...etc.)

My answer: I dunno, and I dunno if they may already accomodate them in such a manner. Seems fair though...and I know there was a Satanist inmate who was trying to be allowed to practice his beliefs, unsure of his outcome though...

Any opinions? (I finally tossed her a Flash Manual and told her to learn Flash scripting...muaaa ha ha ha)

Unsupported supposition. The government can make no attempt to limit public display of religion, except in cases where such display would amount to a government endorsement of a specific religion (and as the Supreme Court decreed recently, sometimes not even then). The young lady is misinformed on this point, likely by religious fundmentalists who want to institute an American theocracy. And yes, the civilian prison system makes provisions for inmates to practice their faiths. The case you mentioned was decided in favor of the inmates and says that those provisions must be extended even to people outside the "mainstream" faiths.

This is simple one. The US is not trying to limit the 3 Major religions in the public but from government facilitys. The reason for this is simple, one can not have a equal showing there for you can’t show any. If you only show one then you brake the constitional amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Showing Christian over Wicca would be establishment of Christianity. Showing Islam over Hindu would be establishment of Islam. Must be fair and respectful to all.


This is also simple. Prison allows people to have there religion and to worship in there way with a few things. Jews and Muslims both hold kosher/ Halal (Islamic Kosher) this is easy. Most prisons have vegetarian meals so if you are of a faith that is vegetarian this is not so hard. If you are in your cell you can pry any time you want. Somethings are not allowed because of safety reasons. As a Wiccan I use candles, incense, and Athema (Dagger) this would not be allowed in prison because of safety reasons.

Thank you Arcadia and Lupo, you said just what I was thinking.

The prisoners in US get the same religious allowances.

As for the "enemy combatants", it's nothing extreme, just common decency. It always amazes me when one group wants religious freedom for themselves, yet want to deny it to anyone else.

Well they need to be very careful of Islamic prisoner's religeous beliefs becuase most the world is hoping to use the least little mistreatment against the US as an excuse to Attack US policy on the war. In addition the Middle East Press will use the slightest infraction as a way to propagandizing their people .. and I imagine sell newspapers and get ratings.

I think another reason its so obvious is that the Islamic religous observance is very much time of day and ritualistic. A Christain doesnt need to do specific prayers at specific times facing a specific city, a specific number of times per day.

Even Employers in the US are sensitive to Islamic practices. We had someone here who used to pray daily at a specific time and once a week go to the Mosque during an extended lunch break.

As far as the food flow in? um wouldnt food need to come from Florida anyway? Last thing I remember Cuba was under a trade embargo.

In addition Muslims can not eat meat that is not buitchered in a manner called Halil.

Colette, if I am not mistaken that is not really a problem. Halil and Kosher are close to the same and I believe in the ways of butchering they are the same. 90% of all US Slater houses butcher in a Kosher manner, not talking about pork and shell fish. I even read once that Rabies and (I can’t remember Islamic Religious Leaders Name, Sorry) go in and bless many of the Slater houses for people who are Orthodox they would check and see were the meat is coming from. There is Kosher/Halil and then there is Kosher/Halil. I could be wrong but I know we in the US do this for the Jewish people and I think it’s also done for the Muslim people too. Been a long time for me, I have read allot on Islam and I could be wrong that Halil is close to Kosher.

http://www.genevaconventions.org/


Most countries follow them - but sadly not the biggest ones...no names of anything mentioned....

http://www.amnesty.org/


...sadly some countries talk about to take make all countries ”free” - but dont ”clean” at home...

Actually the muslim I worked with told me he thought they were nearly the same. He was not sure if it was acceptable. Being in a large city with plenty of Muslim Markets, it wasnt an issue for him.

I think the reason Halil and Kosher are basically the same is that Jews and Arabs (who started the Muslim Religeon) are from the same region originally.

There is Educated Speculation that it was Trichinosis in pork in the early Middle East that led to the prohibitions instituted into the religeons.

In those times where there was no real secular seperation most rules were basically codified into religeous beliefs.

Doesnt change the part about that at Gitmo they are gonna need to import meat from Florida.

Cool thanks


True but they are really the same religion in the same way as Christians and Jewish is the same. All three religions come from Abraham.



Yes, a friend of mine who I talked about in above post and I were talking and he states Religion made laws. I used Trichinosis as a argument that Religion was made to help make laws. Sundial difference but a very vital one.


They had to import meat and every thing else in from Florida, We have no ties to Cuba and will not get things from them. We could maybe go with local places (Mexico, Bumuda, est) but then you have no idea what you are getting and then if you found that the 100 lb os hamburger you have just feed to Muslims was really only 90 lbs of beef and the other 10 lb was pork. Our Troops in Guantanamo Bay have had food shipped to them for along time longer then the Enemy Combaters have been there.

I was listening to an interview with a soldier who was stationed at GITMO when they were housing the Haitians there, he said the difference in the treatment (better food, A/C, facilities) is astonishing between then and now....better now/worse then...

Dunno what it all means...

You know we treat them 10000 times better then what there home countries would do with them. People say how mean the USA is and how bad we treat them. 75% of the people we are holding we tried to send back to there home counties and they said they don’t want them and some said they would just kill them if we sent them back, so we keep them. They are eating better then they would free. They are cleaner. They will live longer, true it is not a life of freedom like you and I have but they didn’t have that at home too.

cough ... cough.

"most countires"? Yeah sure. I can't think any evidence to support this assertion. Many have signed - "support" is another issue entirely. Public statments and actions are completely different completely different than actions.... just like rational logic and well-considered argumentation do not always go together.

Consider this - in WW2, the Nazi government was a signatory to the Genava Conventions, yet that same government defiitely engaged in the horrors of the human experimentation with those in concentration camps. These were also people who did simple little things like strap POWs on boards and upending them to simulate drowning responses in water baths as a means of torture for interrogation purposes --- yes, POWs, not just concentration camp experiments.

We won't talk about the abuses of the Japanese during WW2 because they had not signed on then.... however, remember the genocidal activities of multiple political entities over the last 3 decades during the internecine civil wars in the African states? YEah, I am sure you do. Guess what? Signatories of the Conventions in many cases. Want to talk about Cuba specifically? Go for it and then ask a refugee from Cuba about treatment of relatives in Castro's prisons ...

So, yeah. Tossing out an off-hand remark about adherence to/compliance with (or values implied by) the Geneva Conventions is certain to make a positive impression ---- maybe to anyone who either doesn't think or doesn't know the history.

Personally, I thought the above post was a left-handed slight that was so thinly veiled an insult as to be supercilious. "Most countries follow them - but sadly not the biggest ones...no names of anything mentioned....some countries talk about ..." my ptoot! But, that's just me. No personal insult intended by my post here, to or against anyone. I am only commenting on the logic and implication of the wording. Riiiiiight.

Have to agree. The adherance to the Geneva conventions by countries who have not fought a war in over 50 years isnt really a bragging point.

The true messure would be countries who have fought wars in the last 50 years and how well they abide by them and treat prisoners.

Well I have to say I agree with you. What they posted really lost me for words and any one that knows me that is not easy. The US treats it’s prisoners better then most of the world. We even treat them better then the French do other then we do have the death penalty that they feel is cruel.

The two proceedures are close in that the animal must be killed by having its throat cut and all blood must run out of the body to avoid it being impure.
In many Kosher or Halal slaughterhouses, the animal is hoisted with chains by its hind leg to a point where it is slaughtered by having its throat cut. Hoisting animals which weigh several hundred pounds by a leg and hanging them upside down is extremely painful to them, but just try and protest this kind of brutal, inhumane cruelty to animals and you invariably get called a bigot or racist.

It's hard to be troubled by having any prisoners of war when you sell weapons to both sides and gladly take payment in melted down gold teeth. Yes, I am referring to Sweden. Why be vague?