Nazi crap and military stuff

Just looking for opinions and discussion not free speech tirades:

I like military stuff. I like to build guns and military crap. I am considering building a kubelwagen and possibly a ww2 German U boat or a panzer along with some other non-German military equipment.
What I'm concerned about that the builds may be labeled as an anti Semitic or something else associated with hate mongering.
My question is for someone reading this, at what point is a build considered hate mongering? Is it the build or the context?
I understand a gas chamber is obvious hate shit and so is Nazi crap at a fashion show.
What about a U boat? There is one on display at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry and I never heard anybody suggest it was glorifying the Nazi's or Hitler.
I also understand there is a big grey line between something benign or antagonistic with Nazi shit falling squarely onto the antagonistic side for most people. But because it’s German and WW2 does it make it Nazi? My grandpa who flew B17s in WW2 would say yes. Many people who served in the Wermach during WW2 would say no.

What about kamikaze headbands or katana's? The famous AK-47 also comes to mind as something that is near the antagonistic side for many but has a presence in SL.

I look at most the stuff I build in SL along the same lines as a kid making a plastic model.

This is pretty much how I see it.

Things that could be/or not considered hateful:
Diorama of U boat sinking a cruise ship = Yes
Diorama of U boat being sunk = No
U-boat docked = No
(Same as above replace U boat with Panzer Tank.)

Kubelwagen with giant swastikas on it = Yes
Kubelwagen with accurate graphics including small swastika = No
Driving the shit around dressed in an SS uniform = Yes

The reason why I want to build it? I like military history and equipment. It looks fairly easy to build. I think I would enjoy making it.

I would be interested in how the Lindens see this also. They have a business to run and I can understand why anything remotely Nazi would be a problem for them.

were U-Boot crews all nazi? I don't think so.
Where panzer crews in the wermacht nazi? I don't think so.
Is the reproduction of german historical war equipment to be labeled as nazi? I REALLY don't think so.

Being italian, i could decide to build a Macchi MC.205 without being labeled as a fascist, and would laugh in the face of whoever would state that makes me a fascist.

Reproducing historical content doesn't give anyone the right to label you as a XXXX (insert political affiliation here), it's how you use it that could, but that's entirely up to you.
Simply put, don't let extremists discourage your projects.

Not that my opinion is at any way a deciding one, but I'd say context is key.

No one goes to the Holocaust Museum and walks out of there screaming "OMG NAZI STUFF YOU MUST BE PROMOTING TEH NAZIS" - christ, at least I hope not - because its understood that the purpose of showing these images is for historical and educational reasons, not for promoting the Nazi way of life.

How you want to portray your builds in the proper context is up to you. Lord knows it would be easier to have a list like "big swastika bad/little swastika acceptable" but that makes it easier for trolls to walk that fine line.

Given the large amount of builders with an affinity for historically-accurate creations, I doubt you'd have a lot to worry about as long as you maintain a modicum of respect, which it sounds like you have in spades. So no worries says I.

Here's how I see it, some things, including weapons and war machines should be featured because they are, in fact, marvels of engineering and we would not be where we are today without them.

Granted, making the u-boat flyable, dressing like Hitler, and torpedoing people would be wrong. I'm not going to start on how many things from the Nazi-era survived to this day as part of modern societies world-wide.

I think by saying a any type of german service man was a nazi is a stereotype, they were fighting for their country just like America, and Britain, France, Canada, and Australia

Build what ever you want when ever you want. If its offensive the majority of ppl will tell you so. Lets not start dictating what is "acceptable" Use common sense.

Cat

I suggest you make a big sign at the site that clearly states your intentions. You wouldn't blame discovery channel for having fascistic tendencies by showing WW2 equipment or historic battles.

On a very personal note...
I'm German...I have a weird feeling in my stomach whenever I see somebody walking around in a "Wehrmachts" uniform here in SL. It honestly makes me feel uncomfortable...maybe because my grandfather was forced to wear it when he was 16...I don't know.
Also I feel guilty for what has happened in the name of my people between 1933-45, even though I was born in 1977.
It's an incredible tragedy that happened...the genocide, the war itself. So many good people died, so many innocent just because they were "different"?!. Although I know fascism is not a German problem, but a human problem... it's still there this feeling of guilt...
I'm glad that we live in another world today. That we concider eachother as human beings with the same set of feelings and fears. I think noone can destroy that ever again what we develop in friendships today online or in the RW.

Regards

Dom

As someone living and having grown up in Germany, I totally concur with Dominik. Yes, all those uboots and panzers and whatever might be really cool examples of technological prowess, but I do feel uneasy at the thought of coming across a (nazi) swastika in SL, or some WW2 replicas from the german side clearly recognizable as such.

But by all means, if you enjoy building those replicas, Flavian, go ahead. The discussion here just shows how different cultural sensibilities are all over the world

Creating a virtual replica of a German U-boat or a Panzer Mk IV, along with, say, a Russian T-34 and a Sherman is one thing. Creating a virtual replica of a Waffen SS uniform and then wearing it is something else entirely.

One signifies a genuine interest in history and military technology, and in no way should be suppressed. The other may signify something slightly similar, but is insensitive to people and the meaning of those same historical events.

I'd like to see what you create, Flavian. Let us know.

Don't Mention The War!

*does a walk from the Ministry of Silly Walks*

Minister: Good morning. I'm sorry to have kept you waiting, but I'm afraid my walk has become rather sillier recently, and so it takes me rather longer to get to work. Now then, what was it again?

Mr Pudey: Well sir, I have a silly walk and I'd like to obtain a Government grant to help me develop it.

Minister: I see. May I see your silly walk?

Mr Pudey: Yes, certainly, yes.

Minister: That's it, is it?

Mr Pudey: Yes, that's it, yes.

Minister: lt's not particularly silly, is it? I mean, the right leg isn't silly at all and the left leg merely does a forward aerial half turn every alternate step.

Mr Pudey: Yes, but I think that with Government backing I could make it very silly.


And now back to your regularly scheduled programme...

I don't think there should be need for any sign stating intentions, simply he shouldn't feel guilty at all. Actually the ones that should feel guilty are the potential critics. That see malice in the simplest of things in the name of extremism and censorship.
Denying history is as silly as it can be, and trying to "hide" symbols when they are just a mean of historical recreation is exactly that, denying history. Trying to forget. Thing is that history shouldn't be forgotten.
There is a law in germany that strictly prohibits the display of the nazi svastika in many environments, and it gets to extremes of pure sillyness.
For work i came across to a japanese cartoon called "the cockpit" (a work of pure animation art, by the way, moving and beautiful), one episode of wich was centered upon the story of a german pilot during WW2. We had the chance to publish it in germany, but we weren't able to in the end, because of that silly law. It would have forced us to remove every scene in wich the swastika appeared on the tail of the planes... sheer sadness and disgust.
Now someone just reproducing a german submarine, or a tank, should feel guilty to the point of putting signs stating his intentions? I really don't think so.
Remember that not every German, Italian or Japanese soldier, sailor or pilot was a nazist, a fascist or an imperialist. Actually most of them weren't. Most of them fought bravely and honorably for what they thought was right or for what they thought was their duty (or both), exactly like the allied soldiers.
Is there someone here that thinks they don't deserve to be remembered or honored? Probably. Again, i really don't think so.

*Shiryu hits nail on head with deadly precision*

Flavian, in the outside world beyond SL there are already boundaries within which you should be able to recreate WW2 memorabilia, including German or Japanese, without being labelled a hate monger. In Germany itself, the swastika is banned yet wargames like Hearts of Iron are sold freely. Notably, the publishers of Hearts of Iron (Norwegian I believe?) very aggressively forbid any publication of swastika emblems or flags on their website or on the screenshots that users upload. They are not hate mongers any more than you are.

It is well within the Greater Human Need to memorialize our past. That includes the horrific things as well as the heroic. You may run into opposition from anti-war people who wish to engage in a little of their own fascism by accusing YOU of idolizing fascists, but as long as you know better just tell them to go away. It's none of their business.

... and very stupidly i'd add...



Another example is the IL-2 Sturmovik/Forgotten Battles flight simulator series, that in it's european edition had the swastikas stripped from the tails of all planes, forcing the users to recur to fan made mods to achieve a little of historical accuracy in planes' liveries.
Censoring swastikas in a WW2 flight simulator? Come on...

In my SL office i have the picture and signature of Saburo Sakai (the japanese greatest fighter ace that surved the war, having downed 64 confirmed allied planes, and one of the most bright examples of honor and dignity in the whole war related bibliography). Should americans feel offended when they enter my office? Again, i don't think so.

Not stupidly - it was the only way Paradox could market their game in Germany. It was a business decision.


No, because Sakai was a war hero to his people. He was not a genocidal mass murderer. There is a huge divide between war heroes like Sakai and Guderian (who was not a Nazi) and the racist party politics of WW2 Germany.

Exactly, and what percentage of the german military one can really associate with the racist party politics of WW2 Germany? I don't think it's very high.
Soldiers rarely care about politics, they just serve.
That is why i doubt everyone should feel entitled to criticize someone that remembers and honors such soldiers or display their weapons as a matter of historical representation.

Then we agree. Right?

I guess so lol

At what point do you cross from telling the Nazi story, to becoming a new chapter in the Nazi story?

Re-create the Nazis if you want, but don't airbrush anything, not their technical achievements, not a single body they burnt.

But don't pick the Nazi ideals up from the dust, don't march as a Nazi, and don't do the things they did, and you should be alright.

You may not think so, but you are wrong.

Krups created the first U-Boats for "Nazi" purposes - WWI and then again in WWII.

Briana Dawson

He's not recreating the "Nazi".
He's recreating pieces of german weaponry, used by the german army and navy, that's a pretty damn different thing.

Uh huh. Read the post again. I didn't say he was, I just set out where I draw the line in the sand as to what is recreation, and what is being a Nazi. No names. Just me adding my take on the whole thing. If that's OK with you, of course.

Would it?

Does anyone do historical reenactments on SL, or even full-on wargames?

A battle with WW2 machinery could be quite fun.

I say build the things, people need to realise that just because you portray something doesn't mean that you encourage or condone it. Despite what many "moral" groups in the west would like you to believe these days.

I would even go as far as to say that building a concentration camp would be ok, just don't heard a bunch of unwilling players into it then switch the thing on!

It's all about context.

Note: this is my personal opinion, the Lindens may had different ideas that are less likely to get them sued or flamed