The Outlands was an Incredible Idea

A place of lawlessness, where competing tribes and clans would roam the lands. Pillage of be pillaged would be the law of the land.

It sounds really cool. Makes me think of the civilizations from "Water World" or "Mad Max."

But, the second life community obviously didn't want any portion of their game to take such a form.

The Lindens completely abandoned their excellent idea of an "Outlands," shortly after the arrival of the wwIIonliners. The self-destruction started when they decided to give into the peaceful players who originally settled the Outlands, but then complained when people who actually used guns immigrated into it as well.

I hope a future implimentation of the Outlands will allow for better seperation of the pacifists and PvP players who actually want to use the Outlands for what it was intended.

When that day comes, you can rest assured that many PvP players will return to the game.

I still think it's a great idea.

The problem wasn't the fact that the outlands were without rules. The problem was what people DID in a space with no rules. Don't blame the canvas for the picture.

I hope Linden simply let's folks know that they'll have to come up with a way to enjoy the Outlands without giving up their responsibilities to other palyers. Might be harder than simply shooting blindly at everything that moves.

Let it be a challenge, soldier.

The outlands should stay. The players should remember that they are adults playing with other adults - NOT the lawless charaters they try to role-play.

I agree that better separation is needed.

My observation is that lately the outlanders have gotten bored with their own sim and decided to wander the rest of the world instead. In other threads they have basically admitted that they don't care if this ruins the "game" for other users.

In real life such an attitude will usually lead to a fight of some sort, since the person being picked on will at some point at least defend themselves. In a virtual reality the rules are slightly different. Since it doesn't really hurt when my avatar gets kicked or shot, I can afford to be a perfect pacifist and wait for the aggressor to get bored and go away.

On the other hand, if the bullying persists for session after session I have a choice: I can complain to the authorities and hope the situation gets fixed, or I can simply stop using the game entirely, or I can seek the individuals involved in real life and attempt a more satisfying resolution that way.

Only one of these alternatives makes any sense for the company running the game.

For those who want to prove their SKILL in an online contest between people who are PARTICIPATING in the contest, SL can be as good a place as any to do that. For those who are trying to "prove their manhood" by picking on people who don't really have an interest in that sort of thing, you have some growing up to do. You may find that your attitude doesn't translate too well to real life and you will end up confined to either a jail cell or your bedroom (without computer privileges).

I'd like to see the Outlands sims be physically separate from the rest so you would have to teleport to get there. That way there would be no attempts to annoy each other across the boarder with signs etc. Rules of the game need to be different too. In regular sims one should be able to turn on a "touch me not" option that makes you immune to the laws of physics, for the rest of your session at least. That way you can continue your building or other activities while the aggressors shoot their bullets right through you, rant and rave and stomp their feet.

Repeated abuse by one user against another though will ultimately have to be dealt with by Lindens one way or another. My idea would be to confine such people to the Outlands sims completely. That way they could at least fight with people who are interested in such things. Something tells me they would get frustrated with such an arrangement and leave anyway though. Some people are only interested in "proving" themselves when the odds are dramatically in their favor.

"The problem wasn't the fact that the outlands were without rules. The problem was what people DID in a space with no rules." - Kathy

No, Kathy. The problem was one of control.

A few pacifists, like you, believe that players shouldn't be shooting each other. This undermines the entire purpose of a PvP lifestyle.

For example, Kathy comes to the Outlands and starts preaching at everyone for shooting her. She sets her "home" location on the roof of a war-gamers apartment, and refuses to leave until the community bows to her wishes and refrains from shooting her. By doing this, she is attempting to control the gameplay style of the PvPers.

Conversely, a few PvPers feel that the pacifists outside the Outlands, should be subject to an equal lawlessness. This undermines the entire purpose of a pacifistic utopia.

For example, a certain Outlander I know, travels into pacifist lands and repeatedly kicks people for no apparent reason. He is attempting to provoke these people into taking PvP action again him, and dictating their gameplay style.

The solution is not to force one group of players to conform to the rules of the other. The solution is a greater seperation between the two. A seperation great enough that it would diminish the desire to control the opposing side.

I haven't been here super long, but I was in the outlands before the WW2 peoples came. Back than it was how you described it, lawless, and "tribes" banded together. For instance, the border of Shipley/Hawthorne was inhabited prodominetly by F.I.N.E. Perv peoples, and if their were problems, we resolved to "other means" to solve them besides contacting lindens.

However, when a large number of people come to a certain area to change how people have been living for numerous months prior, things are gonna be different than expected.

This argument has been raging for years in the MMORPG community -- some people want unimpeded progress through player-versus-player zones, saying that if they don't want to participate in it, they shouldn't be required to, others want to be able to attack anyone passing through the zone, since entering the zone would imply knowledge of the consequences of being attacked.

I don't believe Linden intervention in the Outlands community would do much good, especially since the penalties for death are so inconsequential. Instead, passers-through should learn to be more cautious and residents should only attack for a better reason than "I could".

I think part of the problem was that the nature of the Outlands was not widely advertised at first. I, in fact, started a house there thinking that I wouldn't mind the extra noise that would go along with people shooting at one another. Fortunately someone clued me in that it was going to be a lot different (rules wise) than the rest of the world, so I moved. I sympathize with people who built there without full knowledge of what they were exposing themselves to.

On the other hand, now that everyone knows (more or less) what the rules are, I think it is perfectly OK for people to battle away in Outlands. I pass through there every once in a while and if I get shot at or attacked in any way, its no big deal. I think some of the problems started when they went from three (wasn't it?) to one sim that things got worse. Maybe the Outlanders just need more space (don't we all?!). I'd have no problem with the next sim or two going to them, but as I said, I'd prefer that the space was a teleport away rather than practically next door to me.

As far as I know, the problem came in the fact that the outlands were populated by people who moved in for either the Mature rating or because the sims, being unpopulated at a certain time, were the least laggy of the world.

Then the separate ideals of what the outlands were, clashed, and "hey you kids, get off my lawn" was heard loudest of all the arguments.

But I don't really know the whole story cuz from the start I knew that place was trouble!

Yeah, Dave.

You summed it up pretty well. A clash of two gameplay styles, caused by proximity. One style is no more "wrong" than the other. It's just a way to play.

The PvP style of gameplay has been persecuted to the point of extinction over the last two months. Not only by "holier than thou" members of the community, but Linden policy as well.

As I've said before, I hope the Lindens take the opportunity to ressurect PvP gameplay sometime in the future. This time with a few extra safeguards discouraging each side to control the gameplay of the other.

You know what really annoys me?

When people assume that one person's feelings are everyone's feelings.

Everyone has their own opinions and styles of game play. It's nothing special. Get over it.

I agree.

what i find shameful is the fact that if the outlands were created for a pvp style arena, the inhabitants that moved in there should have to deal with their own choices that THEY made upon moving there, not trying to spoil the game for the people who wanna use the sim for its original purpose. have you all failed to read the signs that are posted around the outlands ..... they read " WARNING, YOU CAN DIE HERE" well that about sums it up for me , not that hard to understand, in fact these forums make me sick at just how much whining goes on, yes we're all adults here, so act like it guys, grow up, stop whining, you have read the signs, you knew what the outlands were going to become and what they were intended for. i cant understand all the bickering honestly, i mean, if you cant stay out of the pvp areas and dont wanna die, go back to TSO for crying out loud .

And all rather good ones at that. As always, I really appreciate Mac Beach's comments, as he has been here the longest, and seems to understand what we are trying to do.

For the record, the outlands were designed to be the lawless mayhem that was described in a previous post. It was originally 4 sims in size, and as mentioned, was relatively peaceful as the people owning land there were not particularly interested in shooting each other.

We changed the outlands location to accommodate the large group of war gamers, as we knew they had completely different motivations of gameplay. This experiment worked on many levels and failed on a few. Let me dissect this further:

-We were able to quickly change the outlands locations
-The war gamers were quickly able to effectively take over the sim and set their own standard of behavior.
-The building style was consistently chaotic, suggesting an area that was more.... disorganized... than other areas.

What failed:
-Some of the war gamers chose to continue their play style in areas that were not appropriate.
-We failed to educate (or they failed to absorb the education... not sure yet which was which) the new community members about what was and wasn't allowed on mature/pg and safe/unsafe areas.
-The Outlands were not expanded enough.

So, looking forward, many lessons were learned here, and many adjustments have been made to the way we release land and educate residents.

We will continue supporting the outlands, we still want to expand them. Once we add more sims to Second Life, the outlands will be expanded and the once again balance will be brought to the force.

Please continue discussing this, it's very useful for sim planning and helps us understand what our next feature set needs.

-P

again Peter , thank you for the attention on the issue. It is good to know that lessons can be learned from chaos. there is no problem that ever unable to be reconciled. just gotta get the right heads rollin is all hehe
DF

Peter, this is excellent news.

You may have just won yourself a subscription.

Now, if I could just get all my wwIIonline buds to come back.