New TOS, anyone else wonder about this?

I hit 'accept' so I guess this is moot... but I did read the entirety of the 1.2 TOS completely...

Some of us, o great Lindens, *DO* read all this legalese... From what I see, or, the questions I have are as follows:

1> So 'we own what we create' has been defined, and after the grandeur of the announcement, the true definition of what it is, isn't that grandiose:

---We don't own what we create. The premise of LL as an ISP and service provider, which they do propose in the TOS, comes down to that they are an entertainment service provider. We may retain rights to the "likeness of our avatars", but big news people, we already had this before Philip made the announcement. Let's say you create an avatar that you already have a 'design' for. Is that avatar a likeness to your design? Or is your design a likeness to the avatar on SL? I guess there's a slim chance that Linden Labs could get a court to say that your original work somehow is a derivative work of a SL avatar, but unlikely. The "You Own What You Create" announcement was little more than Linden Labs making a marketing campaign out of "releasing" IP rights that they'd be unlikely to enforce, anyways.

---Again, read the TOS on this one. It says, SPECIFICALLY, that you do not own what you create on the LL servers. It's in black and white. You do not own the constructon, the vertex maps, whatever: that all belongs to LL.

---I've been hoping for a way to back up my inventory to my hard drive. Because I think it'd be a good safety net, to be able to keep a copy, locally, of intricate constructions you create. I've been thinking of requesting this as a feature. But now I understand it wont matter: The above clause in the TOS is the reason you can't do this. When you create in-world, you are providing content for LL's entertainment service. This isn't a problem, but I think it should be realized, fully. Psychologically, people end up with "blinders" as to what's going on here "in SL". You're not building a house. You're providing content for a product. SL is not a "place", and all of LL's words that it's a "virtual venue" are marketing; when hitting 'accept', you should realize this. too. SL is a product, and the product is an entertainment service. Entertainment is a funny thing, and it certainly can't be quantified, or determined as to whether or not it's been provided And even if it hasn't, caveat emptor.


*NOTE: Upon talking to another SL user, she made this good point -- the likely reason for this 'we dont own it, you do' statement by Linden Labs was less likely a bombshell to give to the 'sl community', and more likely a CYA when organizations like the RIAA and MPAA begin policing SL servers for infringements: your SL object that plays that Britney Spears tune is no longer LindenLabs' problem, it's yours. Does this mean that these associations wouldn't even have to initiate a DMCA subpoena to get your user information? Or does it mean that LL has a legal way to not even enter the argument, and it's up to the policing agency to track down the RL identifiers of the SL user? Huh.

2> Lifetime isn't Lifetime neccessarily, and I could be kicked off for even talking about this.

---LL can change pricing, discontinue access, for any reason, at any time. You are not signing a service contract of any sort when signing up for Lifetime membership (or even annual.) Legally, by TOS, you could have a lifetime subscription revoked for no reason whatsoever.


--Now, do I think LL would DO any of these things? No, probably not, but look at the immense overhaul 1.2 was. There's no telling that 1.3 would be an immense overhaul, and consider, lifetime users: LL expects no further revenue from you, as it stands. LL alienating a Lifetime user by forcing them back to monthly actually would have nothing but positive effects: one, if you get angry and leave, so what? They have your $225 and you aren't using server resources and bandwidth anymore: a LL win... If you decide to give in and go back to monthly, it's obviously a LL win, as well.

Somewhere, on secondlife.com webpages of past, said that a lifetime membership will be good for as long as the game runs, and that if you buy in at that level, you will be upgraded to future lifetime benefits. NOTE now that this is NOT in the 1.2 TOS, so consider it never said. Legally, it never has been said.

Just remember that 1.2 shows that LL can change the game plan on you, radically, at any time. They could wipe the world clean and require you to pay $3 US to change your hair length. "There" already gets away with exactly this. If good fiscal numbers come back from "There" (I dont believe they have, but I don't believe SL is rolling in it, either) expect more of a bias towards this sort of revenue model.

These things may rain on people's parade, and I REALLY do hope that Linden Labs initiates civil discourse in the reply to this, - but I think people have to realize what they're getting into when they invest time and money into something like SecondLife. Yes, the product is 'entertainment' and they don't even owe you that. But I think everyone should be aware that LL is not 'hosting your 3d creations in their persistent world' for your user fee. They are providng an entertainment service and you are populating it with content, that you do release actual rights to as soon as it's created. (The likeness, however, you could have always retained.)

For years I was looking for a place like SL, (coming from the text-based mucks) and for years I said it wouldn't happen because the market wouldn't bear it. Something like "There" attracts a spend-ready audience, for the objective of online flirting and socialization. SecondLife appeals to a more creative crowd, but also one that tends to get so immersed in the world that they don't realize the black and white legalities of what they are doing.

"It's just business, guys" when I say that as a "consumer" we have to keep our eyes open. (I'd much prefer the term 'customer', but that term is obsolete, as it implies that the company providing has stake in the end-user: a very non-2000's proposition)

Linden Labs is a for-profit company. They do nothing altruistic (Lindens, take exception to this if you believe it to be otherwise) and at the end of the day, I believe, all changes made to SL in terms of in-world functions or TOS, will be to the following ends, in order of priority:

1> Increase world-appeal to encourage larger amounts of trial users (impressions) to convert to paying customers.

2> Extract more revenue from existing subscribers, likely in the form (with the current incarnation) of up-tiering charges. (Where does this leave LL's obligation [there is none] to Lifetime users? [nowhere.])

3> Provide an appealing in-world entertainment experience for existing monthly subscribers to encourage their continued use of the service.

---Those, as far as I can see, are the ONLY three things one should look at when wondering, "Okay, why is Linden Labs doing this?" ... Not to 'keep prim hogs from building out an entire sim', but #3. Not to 'make it cheaper for casual users to exist on SL', but #1.

These are funny things, when the real world breaks into a virtual world. Talk to a Linden in game about these issues and you'll see what I mean. There's this awkward 'company-consumer' relationship that begins as soon as you ask 'why?', since the paridigm of "an in world resident asking an authoritative in-world persona about in-world policies" goes out the window. It becomes purely a matter of PR and legal department. (I take it any There resident would likely laugh if any one of us on SL thought anything LESS of a persistent world.)

Essentially, beyond the gates of the login screen: everything is virtual and simulated. Except for the money. You aren't paying a "lease" on your land, even if it is termed that; remember that. You aren't building something that you own, even if it is termed as such.

The only thing that is real, when all is said and done, is that you are paying for the privilege to be considered for conditional access to a product.

Now, I have no intent to violate the TOS in any way. (Why? I want to keep my access!!) But I see nothing in keeping a scrutinizing eye on the changes to this service. Don't get me wrong. It's the best thing of its kind out there. It's amazing, and I *want* Linden Labs to make enough money to maintain it quite, quite profitably.

I just get a bit leery of the intimation that "SL is doing this or that (allowing rights to IP, lowering RL costs) for its residents" The idea of this is just ludicrous, including the banner on the front page: that you can make real money on SL - they have a VERY VERY sharp marketing department. (hence 'developers incentive' terminology)... You may recieve reimbursement (in the form of credits towards using the service) for developing content. How that manifests in world, well, that matters about as much as the price of kilts in Brazil.

Just keep a level head, folks. Don't get too lost in this thing. You don't want to be in for a tough fall when the service goes away or is changed to the point where you don't want to use it.

Now if I could become a shareholder, (and pay to do it)(I realize the company isn't public), that'd change a lot of this. And I'd do it.

I also think that the current model of $9.98 for basic entry ("activation" and $9.98 monthly for standard useage capabiliies are a good "consumer value" compared to what else is out here. I hate using those words, but that's what it is.

But it is just a game, unfortunately. quite unfortunately. Paying simply gives you the _opportunity_ to press that accept button, and anything beyond that 'accept' button is just a game.

erm, especially Philip: if you think my insinuations are outright wrong, please do tell me, as it'd be, to say the least, pleasantly interesting to hear that.

Plenty of the stuff you say, I would agree with.

And I don't think that is a bad thing. Essentially any purchase you make, any service you sign up for, is a bet. Yes, you sign up for cable service, for instance, and they say they can change the channel lineup. And they do, but if they suddenly changed every channel to the Home Shopping network, understandably people would get upset. It's the same thing in SL. If they suddenly released a 1.3 that caused everyone to have to wear a giant piece of cheese on their left foot all the time, people would be pissed. Linden wouldn't have to do anything, though, because it would be in terms of their agreement. Just the same, if they decided to delete every third item - or if, say, a server problem deleted your inventory - they really don't have to do anything.

However, something like this does depend on community to a certain amount. Like it or not, there will be people who think that Linden has wronged them in some way. People who violate TOS, people who think they didn't violate the TOS who actually did, script kiddies, you name it. The trick is, if Linden pisses off too many people, they're going to lose, so they're going to end up having to play politics.

Also, yes, your membership can be revoked for any or no reason. Think of it as the 'we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone' sign. Yes, there aren't rules saying that they can't deny, for example, all Jewish people access. They don't have that information anyway. But again, if they use that penalty or choice too often, the word will spread and they will lose for it. Anyone who makes that decision has to have that in mind.

To top it off, they are depending on the people who subscribe to provide much of the content. That's OK, because there isn't any way they could keep enough content created to keep everyone interested in such a free-form world as this and still make money. There just isn't a broad enough appeal. Still, since they depend upon the people in the world to create new and interesting objects, things to do, &c, it is in their best interest to safeguard those items and users.

Still, what it comes down to is, anything could happen, and they really don't guarantee a bit. I don't blame, them, however. Imagine if they gave basically a SLA that said your items would be available, then their offices/data center burned down and they lost two weeks worth of building. People could sue them if they had guaranteed it.

In the end, it comes down to any business transaction, or any interaction period. How much do you trust them? Apparently you trust them $225 worth. I trust them $10 worth. I may build to a higher level eventually, and I can go there if I do. You have gone as far as you can and can't go back now; just as well, hopefully the original TOS said that they could change at any time, and so you had all the information that you needed to decide if that was a good risk to you.

In short (very short), they don't guarantee anything, they can discontinue it for any reason, but it's OK because if they wield that too much, they lose.

I agree with that, Zeet. So many startup companies fail miserably, that there's no way they could hedge their bets on this.

However, something like, for example, including the Lifetime continuity and upgrade statement (which did exist on their website until this morning) in the TOS, would be at least enough good faith, for me.

Monthly is recurring, and each access period is dependent on payment for that month. People who went into that mode of paying (when others were available) knew that, and in a way, have a month to month adaptability to changing payment scales.

Those of us who bought in at Lifetime, were, at least, "advertised" in the fact that this would be carried on and upgraded, and not summarily revoked (without a violation of TOS.)

According to TOS, though, it CAN be revoked without any sort of TOS violation, and can be revoked simply if the business model of SL changes. If Linden didn't want to keep this option open, they would have included language as such in the TOS. That a "lifetime" membership is, indeed, persistent and those who bought in at this level are at LEAST entitled to persistence of such access, so long as the game runs, and so long as they do nothing to violate the TOS.

Secondarily, if we were allowed to export our objects locally, even if only in a SL-readable form, that'd be enough to make me overlook the "likeness but not what's on the server" idea. (and even in the future perhaps a 'viewer only' form? For example, I have my dragon av on SL - if SL is gone in 5 years, it'd be nice to have an SL object viewer that at least allowed me access to, in some form, even if restricted, that creation, on my local equipment.)

Unfortunately, there isn't a pretty mime's chance in prison of this happening.

I think in order to understand how the IP changes actually DO really benefit us you have to stop looking at things in terms of how they're represented inside of SL (avatars, objects as built with SL prims, and scripted objects, etc.) because that's not the important stuff. What the TOS does is differentiate between content that depends on the SL servers being up with content that does't.

Here's a good example... let's say you make a really fun, novel, and addictive game inside of SL (say no one had invented scrabble before and you made it up inside of SL). The value of that scrabble game isn't the prims it's made of or the scripts that make it function. The value is in the concept and the unique set of rules that you invented. If the value of your invention can't be translated outside of SL and retain the things that make it unique, then it really has no value. LL needs to make sure that we understand the difference.

If something were to happen to the company or the servers that prevented you from accessing SL anymore They need to be protected from lawsuits for damages over things that have no actual value outside of SL. Not only do I think it's reasonable, I think they'd be stark raving lunatics not to put it as clearly as possible in the TOS.

If you create something of potential RL value inside of SL then by it's very nature if SL shut down that idea would retain it's value. If it didn, then it wasn't really worth anything to begin with.

The only monkey wrench in all of this is what happens when and if a substantial portion of someone's RL income is derived from developer incentives paid by LL for something they came up with in SL. But we're not there yet.

Ok, well, yes, if they had to literally divvy out the data on the servers because people "owned" it, then that'd be ludicrous, yes. So the data on the server doesn't belong to you, cool:

But, Chip, do you see anything wrong with the ability to export objects locally to your own system? Or save your inventory on your hard drive and perhaps be able to view it with an 'offline viewer'? (I don't even want to get into the premise of offline editing, but that could be beneficial as well.)

I don't see how this would harm LL's business model. But, of course, it isn't up to me to decide.

And again on the lifetime verbage being nowhere to be found, that's another issue completely.

I agree that there's something to be said for keeping aware of what the real 'transaction' is here- but I also think there's value in being able to recognize it, compartmentalize it, and put it aside for the sake of enjoying yourself.

Money for product, yes, but the product is more complicated than just the content of the world. For some players, the builds and the stores and the shopping and the activities are the draw; for others, the ability to create this content is the draw- the ability to express and build and such. Plausibility of effective expression within the limits of 1.2 aside, it's important to remember that this environment and the ability to build is, for some players, the 'product'. You can put it in terms of 'they're making us build their content' but nowhere in the TOS are you bound to build anything; you builders out there know who you are, and if you're anything like me, you're enjoying what you're doing- enough so that you pay for the right to do it.

I could easily model these things in maya, but where's the fun? I can't (easily) take the katana I just built, 'equip' it, and fly around with two swords and a trenchcoat yelling Siberian battle cries in MAYA. It's a different kind of appeal- show-offish, maybe, a little childish, but it's there. I want to create- I want to play with what I create and show it off.

It's a very ingenious scheme- get the people with the itch to build to pay for the right to put up giant floating castles and department stores and trogdor statues, and get the rest of the peole to pay to look at them. But it's hardly immoral- again, 1.2 aside, who's being hurt in the transaction? Is anyone paying for anything they're not enjoying?

Back to 1.2 though, I will say that I do -NOT- like the path this game is beginning down.

Yes, something had to be done to balance the economy so that the playerbase active in any given sim could support the cost of running it. I don't think any of us wants to see LL end up in the financial toilet. I want it to succeed. I want it to -flourish-. So I understand the need to impose some sort of limitations.

I do not like how they chose to implement it. I don't like that your in-game options are tied to real life wealth, etc, the subject's been tread to death- but it -is- an indirect translation of US$ into in-game resources. No, you're not buying L$ yet. But you are buying land and prims with real money and it -is- a step towards There.

Maybe that sort of business model is the only kind that can survive, thrive, self-sustain. It would make me very sad if that were the case, but greater injustices are knit into the physics and economy and social structure of real life everywhere you look. Just because it 'shouldn't be that way' doesn't necessarily mean there's a way around it. Sometimes it just is.

I hope LL allows us to remain as in control of the ingame world as we have been. But in the end, they owe us nothing- it's their choice to change their product; it's our choice, if the product is no longer something we like, to leave. Bring suggestion forums, a receptive administration, and good, honest relations into it and the equation can be altered somewhat but in it's simplest form, there it is.

I am grateful for the forums. And for how open the Lindens have been, up to this point. I know it's more than you'd get from most companies. But I also know it can be taken away.

I just, in some ways- don't entirely care. I do, but I also plan to enjoy myself, yeah? That is what this place is here for, after all.

Thanks for enduring my rambling. Just had a few admittedly disorganized thoughts on the subject.

I think some kind of local backup would be a great thing just in case of any kind of unexpected database tragedy, but I don't see this as related to the TOS. If you had a backup and SL went belly up it's not like you'd ever be able to do anything with it again anyway. They're giving us a playground for our imaginations, not an FDIC insured bank for our IP.

okay, yes. I realize that. But if we were at least able to view them offline, there would be some form of access granted to what we created that didn't depend on LL at all. You couldn't "do" anything with it, if it were just a viewer, but there would still be access to it, in a form.

Yep, that would be cool Not sure where I'd put it on the priority list though (probably pretty low). Think of your SL stuff as ice sculpture that takes a really long time to melt, hehe (but it will melt eventually).

** deleted **

Can we get a "diff -u old-TOS new-TOS"? That'd be great.

Is it right that the official restriction to US and Canada residents is gone?

Does that mean you found an easy way to send developer incentive payouts into far and away countries?

I doubt SL would ever allow local copies of in-game data (i.e. inventory). That just opens up the material for significant hacking. That's one of the reasons no MOG (that I know of) retains information, such as your inventory, on the user's computer.

Also, LL has to include clauses like the lifetime membership one in order to limit their liability. Without such clauses, LL could be forced to keep SL up and running, albeit at a loss, should they ever decide to take it down. By stipulating that your lifetime membership is subject to their whim, they are attempting to prevent you from suing them for problems or issues relating to access to SL. All MOGs have similar clauses in their ToS/EULA.

The IP clause(s) are novel in that most MOGs go out of their way to retain all rights in and to in-game content. (See EQ & SWG, both run by SOE.) It's unusual and interesting (if not exciting) that LL allows users to retain some rights (any rights) to in-game content.

Such a cinical(sp) view.

First off it was just last week that a user won a case in Asia I believe against a MMOG operator for data lost because of a hack. The company asserted that the items the person lost had no value (they were just bits on a server!) and thus they didn't need to return them. The court found that given the time/effort required to get them it was the company's poor security at fault and they did indeed owe them the items. If Linden didn't act in response to close any loopholes in this regard I would be extremely suprised and critical. While the greatest effort should be made to keep the data safe, the law suits really aren't good for a company (duh). The distinction seems to be that while you do own the RW IP rights to your items in game, the actually items are owned by Linden Lab - given to them by you for them to use as content for their entertainment service. The items themselves then can have no value while the idea, art, process, form, whatever can. It also keeps anyone for suing Linden Lab for using their in world items.

This lifers getting shafted stuff is nonsense. All services say they may change the agreement at anytime without notice. Any other wording could require them to maintain servers past the life of the business, product or some other sillyness.

Well my US$70+ check is supposedly in the mail. Not credit towards the service, although that would have been the route I would have taken in their shoes. I decided I could better use the money as cash and so a check is being sent. The theory behind it is very sound and I hope it works out. The people who get the most dwell are drawing the most people, giving the most people the most 'extra' reason to stay in game. That is worth RL$ to linden, and so they pay out RL$ for it. I hope it leads to and/or fosters some truely creative and interactive content that SL very desperatly needs.

Of course it is a game! It has always been a game, always will be a game. To think otherwise is just silly. It is a creative game, a game of creation, ideas and experimentation. And a game where the ideas you create in it are yours. That is important and real to the way SL works.

thanks for all the support from other folks on this thread. Let me respond in my own words what I think some answers are and elaborate on some of the issues:

>So 'we own what we create' has >been defined, and after the
>grandeur of the announcement, the >true definition of what it is, isn't
>that grandiose:
>
>---We don't own what we create.

False.
You do own what you create, in the same way that you own content hosted on a website. This is the goal of the SL TOS with respect to content, and it is very distinct from most of the online games out there.
Without getting too much into the legal terms, the key difference is that we do not in this agreement force you to ASSIGN your rights to uploaded/created content to us. Take a look at some other TOS's and see what they say, then look at ours. This is a big difference. A specific section that is relevant here is quoted below:

"5.3 Participant Content ... (III) LINDEN'S ACKNOWLEDGEMENT HEREUNDER OF YOUR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS IN YOUR CONTENT DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A LEGAL OPINION OR LEGAL ADVICE, BUT IS INTENDED SOLELY AS AN EXPRESSION OF LINDEN'S INTENTION NOT TO REQUIRE PARTICIPANTS TO FOREGO THEIR NORMAL INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS WITH RESPECT TO CONTENT THEY CREATE USING THE SERVICE, SUBJECT TO THE TERMS SPECIFIED HEREIN."

You may notice (in "5.3 Participant Content." that we DO ask for some right to your content, which we think are fair and balanced:

* We ask to be able to show your content to other people to help market SL.

* We have the right to delete your content if we need to (but this doesn't deprive you of the right to build it again or even take it to another service).

Perhaps some clarification on ownership/hardware versus software: Linden runs servers (the simulators) which we buy, pay the bills for, etc. There isn't a legal way to 'sell' you a little piece of those servers, in the same sense that when you use a web hosting service, they don't sell you a little piece of their server farm. But you still feel that you own the content you place on that server, yes?
Our goal with the TOS is to make the legal status of content you create in SL identical to content you place on a hosted web server. It is yours to make, change, delete, move, and also yours to seek intellectual property protection.
Because it is possible that we could need to shutdown the service or might accidentally lose data, we do add some stuff that is totally reasonable that basically says that you can't hold us liable if something like that happens. Some relevant sections on this topic are "4.3 All Data Is Temporary.", "7.2 Interruption.", "10. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY." This is reasonable because we are basically hosting your content, and like any service provider, we need to have an agreement with you as to how far we need to go to protect it. So we don't have an SLA with guaranteed 99.999% runtime, for example. That would cost you a lot more. Someday we hope to have one.

>---Again, read the TOS on this one. It says, SPECIFICALLY, that you do not
>own what you create on the LL servers. It's in black and white. You do not
>own the constructon, the vertex maps, whatever: that all belongs to LL.

No. Where? Specific formats are not mentioned anywhere. You have the same right to IP protection on your shapes as you do on your sounds or textures or avatar. There is no distinction made as to format. This is an important issue to us - we are protecting all the stuff you make, not just your avatar. Please explain to me where in the TOS we need to make this more clear.

Let me get really specific: Build a chair in SL with a really cool shape. Now file for a copyright on that industrial design (the shape of the chair). Now sell the design (with some screenshots or whatever) to a furniture manufacturer who pays you for it. Done! That is something you can do in SL - our TOS allows it.

>---I've been hoping for a way to back up my inventory to my hard drive.
>Because I think it'd be a good safety net, to be able to keep a copy,
>locally, of intricate constructions you create. I've been thinking of >requesting this as a feature. But now I understand it wont matter: The above
>clause in the TOS is the reason you can't do this.

No, this is simply because we haven't built a tool for you yet. We are a small company and are working as fast as we can. Exporting/importing our format is very hard because it is streamed and isn't a vertex format.


In summary, we strongly agree that gating 'conditional access' (as you suggest) to a 'walled garden' in which all bets are off as to usage and ownership is NOT going to be the fastest way to grow a digital world. What we have tried to do with the TOS thusfar is, I believe, a very meaningful step toward the future. Looking beyond 1.2 and the current TOS, we would like to see a world in which you guys run the servers yourselves - consider for a moment that our technical design explicitly allows this - in fact we do it sometimes when testing. Technically we are still a bit early for the version of the matrix in which the sims run as arbitrary servers out there on the net, not owned by us, but believe me that is where we want to be headed.

** deleted **

Yeah---

This is the stuff I dream of....


One day, your land allotment will grant you a license to run a SL server of your very own, the size of which will be determined by the land allotment.................


In matrix speak, your very own 'loading program', if you will.

It was great to see that the requirement to be a US or Canadian citizen in the TOS has been deleted.

Yay! I'm legal!

This thread pwned by:

Philip Linden

Agreed. Something in the back of my head tingled at that paragraph =)

Oh, great! Just great. Now I have to dump Sig Other and find a boyfriend who is capable of setting up a server to run SL. Sheesh, the sacrficies this game requires!

So, any guesses on how long poor Sig Other has until I have to toss him out for a guy who doesn't have to ask "how do I forward an email"?

Bhodi

Same here.

The concept that in the future, the sims maybe player owned/operated, but linked in with the rest of the SL world is a very profound concept. It bings ideas like Americana back to life, and a grander version of Kazenojin to mind, among other things.