I'm picking up a bit on Ulrika's posts in the "Trained Killers" thread, but this is also the question that comes to my mind whenever I hear people talking about "Conservatives" or, especially, "Liberals." I've typed and voiced my fair share of anti-Neo-Con statements, including referring to them as "enemies of America," "misguided," and "short-sighted." Making these statements, I felt I was referring to a real group of people who would identify themselves and each other as Conservatives.
When I hear someone attacking Liberals, however (often w/ the same accusations), I picture no such group of people. The word as it's used today doesn't mean anything to me except, "Not supporting the U.S. political faction of authoritarian moralizers now in power." Well, that's me alright, but it doesn't give a very clear view of my goals or values, any more than if you pick one of my ethnicities and decide it's all you need to know about who I am.
So, are one or both of these categories just paper tigers, an illusory enemy keeping us off-balance? Are one or both of them bigoted caricatures? Do they have any meaning at all?
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Conservatives and Liberals: fact or bigoted rhetoric? |
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Vudu Suavage
Feral Twisted Torus
Join date: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 402
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05-21-2005 20:53
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Kiamat Dusk
Protest Warrior
Join date: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 1,525
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NeoCon 1
05-21-2005 22:00
Actually NeoCon is the name of our space station in orbit (it's the one with the Southern Cross painted on it) from which we members of the VRWC plot the next war on some unsuspecting murderous totalitarian regime (I'm looking at *you*, Kim Jong Il). That is, when we're not plotting to murder thousands of our fellow Americans in order to justifty said war. With all that it's hard to find the time to rape people of their Constitutional rights (you can see just how squelched the Liberals are in America-can barely burn a flag or a president in effigy without getting arrested) but somehow we manage.
When we get some free time up here in NeoCon (which we affectionately call the "Ivory Tower"  we like to hunt deer with our AK-47s, watch NASCAR, and listen to country music.-Kiamat Dusk Commander In Chief of the NeoCon armada _____________________
"My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape." -Bret Easton Ellis 'American Psycho'
"Anger is a gift." -RATM "Freedom" Eat me, you vile waste of food. http://writing.com/authors/suffer |
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Ardith Mifflin
Mecha Fiend
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,416
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05-21-2005 22:16
Actually NeoCon is the name of our space station in orbit (it's the one with the Southern Cross painted on it) from which we members of the VRWC plot the next war on some unsuspecting murderous totalitarian regime (I'm looking at *you*, Kim Jong Il). That is, when we're not plotting to murder thousands of our fellow Americans in order to justifty said war. With all that it's hard to find the time to rape people of their Constitutional rights (you can see just how squelched the Liberals are in America-can barely burn a flag or a president in effigy without getting arrested) but somehow we manage. When we get some free time up here in NeoCon (which we affectionately call the "Ivory Tower" we like to hunt deer with our AK-47s, watch NASCAR, and listen to country music.-Kiamat Dusk Commander In Chief of the NeoCon armada So ya'll are the reason I have to endure that insipid show "Blue Collar TV" on Comedy Central? |
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Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
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05-22-2005 03:03
When I hear someone attacking Liberals, however (often w/ the same accusations), I picture no such group of people. The word as it's used today doesn't mean anything to me except, "Not supporting the U.S. political faction of authoritarian moralizers now in power." Well, that's me alright, but it doesn't give a very clear view of my goals or values, any more than if you pick one of my ethnicities and decide it's all you need to know about who I am. Ah, that's because "Liberalism," as it was, has been undergoing a quiet defeat since at least the 90's. Naomi Klein pointed out in her book, No Logo, that while liberals were busy spending the last decade fighting a war of identity politics, they were ignoring things like ownership. So now we have a nice spectrum of gays, blacks, and women being represented in mass media but the Neocons own all the important power points in America. Pretty stupid move considering that this is a capitalist society. Hindsight and all that, I guess. If you are a liberal but not part of the group that is being attacked, that's probably because you're part of the new Left that has yet to be strategically organized because it hasn't figured out how to own the means to do so effectively. Of course the Right is going to attack the image of the old Left because they worked hard for that image- so hard that the Right believes that image encompasses the Left. But don't you start believing it too or you'll be as confused as they are misled.  _____________________
"The mob requires regular doses of scandal, paranoia and dilemma to alleviate the boredom of a meaningless existence."
-Insane Ramblings, Anton LaVey |
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Jeffrey Gomez
Cubed™
Join date: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,522
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05-22-2005 03:15
Labels are just that. Labels. Convenient terms to express allegiance, attack a group, or rally around a popular ideal.
Liberal. Conservative. Republican. Democrat. It all means so little, and it all means so much. Anyway, there is no right answer to this question. The implication completely depends on the context and the person. Other good examples from times past and present: Terrorist. Communist. Nazi. Capitalist. Intelligencia. All of which are relative to who you are and how you perceive the ideas. _____________________
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Vudu Suavage
Feral Twisted Torus
Join date: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 402
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05-22-2005 03:36
Why Kiamat, your posts are so calm, constructive, and well-reasoned lately :/
Personally, I'm not big on the conspiracy angle, tho I know plenty of progressive activists who are. What I see is not an intricately planned conspiracy, but a network of people who know people who are related to people who control most of the resources available in this nation and the world. Like any of us, they think first of protecting what's theirs--the property and accustomed lifestyles of their families and close associates. When they think of "America," they flash on a half dozen families of board members, politicians and board member/politicians--the rest of the population is merely capital. I'm not saying these people are evil or ill-intentioned. They surely believe that the plebeians are better off under their guidance, and that the more power and resources they can concentrate in their hands, the better they can guide. The effect, however, is that social classes become more rigid in each generation, and the gates of power are closed to those born outside the fence. Me, I own very little. The most successful of my extended family barely breach the middle class in peak years. Maybe some cousin owns a bar or a garage. Among us are wage-workers, wanderers, and petty criminals ("criminals" here referring not to a morally inferior lot, but to the lowest social class, and the least skilled). The culture where I grew up owes as much to the natives who lived on the same land for millenia before us as to the Christian soldiers who make up the greater share of our blood. We own little and seek little, and owe allegiance to no church. Whatever they may believe to the contrary, the goals and interests of the ruling class are not my goals and interests. With every microgram of poison they belch into my air, every craft or cuisine they knock off for profit, every numbing ad-meme they push into my space, and evey hour of my life they leach away to fund their oil-fueds, these people impede my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. But hey, one of these days they'll save them babies the Liberals are harvesting for stem cells to feed the hommasexuals, so let's get our war on . _____________________
Cthulhu, spiders, and other artfully crafted creatures are available at Gods & Monsters in Zoe, as well as Limbo and Taco.
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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05-22-2005 04:58
So, are one or both of these categories just paper tigers, an illusory enemy keeping us off-balance? Are one or both of them bigoted caricatures? Do they have any meaning at all? Kinda all of the above. All parties have extremists. The extremists on either party always seem loathsome to the members of the opposing party. But in the middle, you have 98% of the people identifying with either party who have alot more in common with the people in the oposing party than you might think. That said, I'm gonna repeat a post I made a few months back in another political thread: I'm gonna paraphrase Champie... "lets be fair here". The left has done it's fair share of the "red vs blue"-ing of America, calling the other side morons and bible thumping idiots and all sorts of other lables, saying that bush is a monkey/idiot/evil/nazi/hitler-esq/murderer/whatever, saying that anyone who voted for bush is a monkey/idiot/evil/nazi/hitler-esq/murderer/whatever, saying there needs to be an invasion of America, and all sorts of other fun crap. I'm not defending some of the nonsense my side spews, don't get me wrong. But understand that both sides do it, don't make it out like the left has any sort of moral highground to preach from in that regard. This is why anything regarding politics is generaly a waste of time on the internet. Both sides are so full of hate and derision that they don't even try to actually discuss anything, it just degenerates into name-calling and mockery. I always see people say "I don't discuss politics with friends"... That's a troubling notion. It means that either your friends aren't really all that much of a friend, or that you are just incapable of discussing politics in a civil matter. Some of my best friends are quite liberal. We discuss politics all the time. It's civil, it's polite, and neither side walks away mad or insulted. Party loyalty is such a stupid concept. I'd far rather parties were abandoned and people ran simply on issues, but that's not really possible... It would automaticly gravitate towards a party-based system anyways. Here are some helpful hints to keep political debate civil on the 'net: 1) Before slinging a wad of mud at the 'other side', make sure your party isn't guilty of the same thing. Otherwise you just come off looking like a jackass. And I'll tell you this right now: Your party is guilty of it. I don't care what your talking about, or which party you are, your party is probably guilty of it. This is politics, after all. End result? Stop slinging mud. Debate issues, don't attack. 2) Don't assume your party is perfect. It isn't. This is similar to point 1, but slightly different: If you agree with /everything/ your party does, or hell, even everything one /canidate/ does, you are a sheep. Plain and simple. These people are human. They aren't perfect. For example, I don't like my party's (I'm nominaly a republican) stance on homosexuality, at all. I don't agree with Bush's policies sometimes. I'm able to admit he isn't perfect, and I don't brush them aside with "Oh, it doesn't matter". If you can't do the same, regardless of if you are conservative or liberal, there isn't any point to discussing things. 3) Don't attack people for holding an opinion. It isn't called for. It's not going to accomplish anything (I promise you, nobody is going to go "Oh, you're right, I am a moron." after you call him one), and it's going to make you look like a jackass for having done so, not make the person you insulted look like one. This one can be hard - and hell, I've broken it a number of times -, but try your best. Yes, when someone comes in defending what appears to be the obviously indefensable, it may be hard. But if you actually want to accomplish anything, it's not the right way to do it. Now, of course, if all you WANT to do is be an ass and insult people, feel free to ignore these suggestions. _____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Rose Karuna
Lizard Doctor
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,772
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05-22-2005 06:53
Actually NeoCon is the name of our space station in orbit (it's the one with the Southern Cross painted on it) from which we members of the VRWC plot the next war on some unsuspecting murderous totalitarian regime (I'm looking at *you*, Kim Jong Il). That is, when we're not plotting to murder thousands of our fellow Americans in order to justifty said war. With all that it's hard to find the time to rape people of their Constitutional rights (you can see just how squelched the Liberals are in America-can barely burn a flag or a president in effigy without getting arrested) but somehow we manage. When we get some free time up here in NeoCon (which we affectionately call the "Ivory Tower" we like to hunt deer with our AK-47s, watch NASCAR, and listen to country music.-Kiamat Dusk Commander In Chief of the NeoCon armada Does this mean that your working toward legalization of fishing with dynamite? 'Cause I'm all for that.  Regarding the question - Media always will present the most extreme views. Personally, either party has done an adequate job of representing my interests. The economy continues to go to hell in a hand basket while corporate raiders steal our pensions, 401K's and Social Security, American debt is higher than it's ever been. Census data released August 26, 2004 show that the number and percentage of Americans living below the poverty line increased for the third consecutive year in 2003, and the number and percentage of people without health insurance also climbed for the third straight year, leaving 45 million Americans uninsured in 2003 — the largest number on record, with the data going back to 1987. Prisons and jails hold one out of every 142 U.S. residents. The prison and jail population, long the world's largest, has doubled since 1990. 1,630 Americans dead in Iraq and thousands of Iraq citizens have died with no end in sight. Global warming, water and fuel shortages are all issues that profoundly affect our countries future. No one that I see from either party appears to be addressing these issues. It's sort of like they are saying: "Hey keep your eye on Terry Schiavo, gay marriage, abortion and the fillibuster while we run up a nation debt that steals your children blind and while were at it, we'll clean out grandma's savings too and just for shits and giggles, let's leave an uprecented environmental mess for our future generations to clean up." The fact is, I'm sick of all of them democrats and republicans alike and their rhetoric. I've decided to put my money, time and vote into a third party. It may be a waste of a good vote, but in all honesty, I can't support any of these asshats any longer. . _____________________
I Do Whatever My Rice Krispies Tell Me To
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Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
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05-22-2005 13:47
Hello, my name is Hiro and I am part of the ignored moderate majority.
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Hiro Pendragon
------------------ http://www.involve3d.com - Involve - Metaverse / Emerging Media Studio Visit my SL blog: http://secondtense.blogspot.com |
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Icon Serpentine
punk in drublic
Join date: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 858
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05-22-2005 16:07
Does this mean that your working toward legalization of fishing with dynamite? 'Cause I'm all for that. Regarding the question - Media always will present the most extreme views. Personally, either party has done an adequate job of representing my interests. The economy continues to go to hell in a hand basket while corporate raiders steal our pensions, 401K's and Social Security, American debt is higher than it's ever been. Census data released August 26, 2004 show that the number and percentage of Americans living below the poverty line increased for the third consecutive year in 2003, and the number and percentage of people without health insurance also climbed for the third straight year, leaving 45 million Americans uninsured in 2003 — the largest number on record, with the data going back to 1987. Prisons and jails hold one out of every 142 U.S. residents. The prison and jail population, long the world's largest, has doubled since 1990. 1,630 Americans dead in Iraq and thousands of Iraq citizens have died with no end in sight. Global warming, water and fuel shortages are all issues that profoundly affect our countries future. No one that I see from either party appears to be addressing these issues. It's sort of like they are saying: "Hey keep your eye on Terry Schiavo, gay marriage, abortion and the fillibuster while we run up a nation debt that steals your children blind and while were at it, we'll clean out grandma's savings too and just for shits and giggles, let's leave an uprecented environmental mess for our future generations to clean up." The fact is, I'm sick of all of them democrats and republicans alike and their rhetoric. I've decided to put my money, time and vote into a third party. It may be a waste of a good vote, but in all honesty, I can't support any of these asshats any longer. . Probably the best idea I've heard so far. I never understood how America became a two-party country? It's a shame Canada is starting to head that way, but it's not there yet. Thankfully. _____________________
If you are awesome!
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Kiamat Dusk
Protest Warrior
Join date: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 1,525
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And now a message from your conquerors....
05-23-2005 18:38
As Commander In Chief of the NeoCon Armada I'd like to personally apologize to Ardith and everyone else who has endured Blue Collar TV on Comedy Central. I have no idea how that got past the Big Brother censorship bereau. I can only suspect that they were busy keeping inlfammatory books like "Hucklelberry Finn" from the hands of our impressionable youth. Rest assured that those repsonsible (or at least some one from a minority group) will be found and summarily executed.
Also, allow me to express my earnest desire to see that the God given rights of blue blooded, God fearing, dynamite bearing anglers everywhere are protected...just as soon as we take care of that whole filibuster thing. -Kiamat Dusk Speaking from NeoCon 1 _____________________
"My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape." -Bret Easton Ellis 'American Psycho'
"Anger is a gift." -RATM "Freedom" Eat me, you vile waste of food. http://writing.com/authors/suffer |