Can we learn anything from There?

So I tried There yesterday for the first time. I'd seen an interview with the There founder in February's issue of ACM Queue and he seemed like an intelligent guy with a clear vision, and I wanted to see where that vision had led.

This post is about what SL can learn from There. It's structured in two sections:

- Things I liked about There
- How we can apply them to SL

Things I liked about There:

- lots of people in the world. I logged in and was surrounded by a party of maybe 50 people
- I clicked on Events, and there were tons of events, being created all the time. Want to go buggy racing? There's maybe 5 buggy racing events going on right now!
- the buggy was pretty cool. Realistic looking aerial. Maybe I'll take back my idea on scrapping the physics engine in SL because these buggies looked *cool*.
- and then I went buggy racing, and it was really fun!

So, can we learn from this for SL?

Lots of people in the world.

I was in a sim with 50 people next to me, and no discernible lag at all. Maybe SL could create permasims, with no editing allowed, optimized for high av-count and low lag?

Events

Tons of events. It's easy to create an event in There. You just click a button and Boom! there it is. In SL it needs you to plan ahead by a couple of days (depending on timezone), which is a loooonnggg time. So my suggestion for SL events is:
--> make Linden funding retroactive. ie, you can apply for your event two days in advance, but if you create an event right now, the Lindens can look at it tomorrow and decide to pay you for it
--> prize-money can also be retroactive, or just abolished altogether to be honest. Personally I attend events that are fun, and earning money or not doenst come into it. In any case, retroactive prize-money is not a problem: just tell the Lindens who came 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and they'll assign prize money retroactively if they approve the event for funding

Buggy racing

The buggy racing was very cool, and surprisingly simple. How come we/I missed this? Their buggy racing takes place in a single-sim sized area, and the impression of speed is given by the slow-motion jumps. Race control is by raising the whole track fractionally from the ground so if you fall off you gotta do a little U-Turn. I think we can probably make one of these in SL right? Think I might give it a try.

To summarize, couple of suggestions for SL:
- create permasims, optimized for high av count and low discernible lag
- make event funding retroactive to encourage real-time event creation

Azelda

one thing that makes a big difference is that SL is streaming and There is mostly all preDLed.

You're saying ditch the streaming? A radical move. Or maybe you're saying it has to be this way in order to keep streaming.

Going back to basics. For me personally, what I'm looking for in a generic sense, like what I've been looking for since starting to play Everquest, is:
- a MMOG
- who's world I can modify, contribute to

Like, at a basic level, I had a picture for Everquest of being able to point at the ground, cast a MakeTree spell and Boom! a tree would appear.

My vision was that these would be spells taht would use mana, and larger creations would need more mana.

One of the bigger creations would be to create a new zone, and you'd actually need maybe a hundred people all meditating together in order to create enough mana to cast the CreateZone spell.

You'd be able to create a zone anywhere you like, and this would basically create a portal to the new zone.

This was my vision, and that's what I'm looking for.

To what extent is SL consistent with this vision?

- Well, we have the ability to create stuff. We can create trees, and we can build
- If we compare SL to my vision, in my vision we have the ability to create new zones, which would be empty 3d pockets of space where you can do what you like.
- We need a MMOG
- And we'd need building to be done by spells, based on mana

I think there's nothing here that SL is not capable of, and the amount of backend SL modifications to make this possible is very trivial in the grand scheme of things.

Going back to streaming or not... well, to fit in with this vision it's got to have streaming in it. However, that doesnt preclude "baking" large parts of the game into something more permanent. To what extent that is different from efficient caching I'm not actually sure.

I think it could be interesting to have at least one or two pre-baked sims, like maybe Ahern which is mostly all Linden-owned anyway, and possibly one other, for parties and conferences.

How cool would it be if the TownHalls and the SL Developers Conference could take place in a single prebaked sim

Azelda

I've always felt that the differences between There and SL made SL better. I really don't care for buggy races, so there's half the events. Also, why do the buggies look so cool? Because they're pre-made.. no making your own, AFAIK.

I like the freedom of SL and we need the streaming because the reason that There is pre-DL is that it's all static content, very limited building.

Well, you can make your own buggies...however, that's only paintjobs. People spend tons of ThereBucks on different buggies, just for their looks -- they all act the SAME. They plan on having some scripting within a year, and the same with their building system, which will be similar to ours. However, both systems will be expensive to use. For scripts, they'll charge to create a script, then you'll have to submit the script for review, and then they have to accept it, and in order to use it, that'll cost more money, and to sell it, that'll cost more money. Same with building.

and, to top it all off...will There even survive long enough to add those things? Who knows...

Well, I wasnt actually intending this thread to discuss whether SecondLife is better or There is better. I'd imagine there are some people who prefer one, and others who prefer another. It's probably a fairly safe bet that those people playing SL prefer SL

Azelda

Yes, back to the original topic as it was intended by the creator...

1) SMOOTHER ANIMATIONS! Ugh, the smooth, realistic anims of There make me jealous when I go back to SL and see the fake, clunkiness. Yes, I know it may or may not all be solved with custom gestures, but why not just make animations like that the default? PLEASE?

2) The world's hella big. Litterally, it's as big as Earth. What I would want is to have a sim that can't hold any building or any scripts, but is just really hella big. That can be done, right? I mean, this is basically the same as Aze's perma sim idea.

Without devolving into There vs Second Life rhetoric, there are a couple of things There definitely has a slight advantage over SL.

1) The often mentioned animations are a two fold thing. They do have a smoothness of movement, and a randomness of movement that adds a lifelike nature to the avatars. This has improved in SL over time as well, but it is still noticeably smoother. A major reason for this is all avatars in There are basically the same size and body model - there is no variety, so it is much easier to create stock animations.

2) Group system - groups in SL are pretty much useless to a large degree. There gives much more structure to groups by providing a web site for them with forums, chat, member lists, and group related events. SL definitely needs to build on its group functionality, which is rudimentary.

3) I am torn on the events functionality. It is still awkward to have to do it through the web site, but otherwise I think the field is level. Yes, There has seemingly more events, but many are self running repeats of the same bland events. I think SL has a much wider variety of events, and you won't find mature events easily in There.

4) The vehicle physics in There are wonderful - again, because the vehicle support is built into the engine, you have a limited amount of vehicles but they perform well. SL vehicles are still in their infancy. While there is a huge variety, let's be honest. Cars SUCK. Boats are done well, but cars still are way too twitchy and hard to control - even the best scripted ones. It is why no one uses the vast road network (other than you can't rez any goddamned place on it, which is just, um lame). The hoverboards were also quite fun to play on - there is nothing equivalent in SL - the SL hoverboards are odd. More attention does need to be given to the vehicle engine in SL - it will add a lot more recreational options.

5) There does allow custom models to be created in 3d Studio - there are limitations, but some pretty unique items have been created - the shopping cart hoverboard and the dolphin hoverboard, and the high heel shoe chair all come to mind. Our prim system does limit some of our creativity. Granted, it is an arduous process to get any content into There, but for 3d modellers, it is an option we don't have.

So there you go - no hyperbole, just observations about There. These strengths are basically the only strengths it does have - so ultimately is outweighed by all that is Second Life.

Cristiano

PS - one thing I wanted to mention are groups of avatars. The people commenting on 50 avatars being around failed to note that half of them become unrecognizeable block people - it is a creepy technology they use to handle load. If you can't tell who someone is or see their chat text, what is the point of having them there. Sometimes you can even be in a chat circle and someone across from you becomes a block person. Also, There's world is no bigger than SL's - in fact at this point I think SL has much more geography (and water, as opposed to blue cement).

Azelda you could make your own thing like that very easily, kind of like a cross between Dark Life and regular building.

Anyway, my usual list...

1) animations, I'm thinking, and hoping, that custom animations will fix this, so I'm going to drop it untill we see some production roll out on this.

2) Vehicle physics, once again, havok 2 may fix this (eventualy, not right away) when/if we get suspension controlls and such. Another large problem is that currently the physics are so wonky in SL, theres the gap between the objects, and the fact that you can sometimes go through other objects with enough force/push. There's physics engine is pretty nice (its home brewed), although they too sometimes suffer the going through stuff (houses are especialy fun).

3) Providing a easier and more friendly communication between users, that sounds odd, but basicly what I mean, by design, There is built around communicating with other people, "communication first". While SL is too, its not as much. We could make more locations to chat at and different ways to chat to fix that. Facial expressions and movements of avatars are another part of this, but that falls back on 1).

4) Expansive world. One of There's unique things about it, is its "planet size". I think SL would be wise to do something like that, the ocean being blocked off is just freaking annoying as hell. It would be awsome if you could go boating out there or something. Building is not needed, just let us use those huge open waters.

5) Integration, A large part of There is done trough websites, but since most of it is integrated within There you can't really tell (unless you don't use IE by default, then you tell). Not as much of SL is on websites, but what is needs to be integrated somehow with the actual program, you shouldn't have to leave SL to do something that will effect you inside SL. This includes forums, auctions and event setups (XML-RPC may make this possible). Also if we could launch the default browser via LSL, to prevent stuff from showing up you don't want, I'd put in a dialog "objectname) wants to open your browser to (website address), would you like to allow it to?".

6) Content users can't create, the ability to upload models would be neat, but not really needed, what I mean is things like a dog skeleton, sure we can script animals, but we can't make the mesh and such for them, in the end they still look like a pile of prims even if they act like the There dogs. Custom land textures would be nice too, would really help with creating a setting. Custom sky for sims, this would probly only work for island sims, but custom skys and backdrops would be neat to have.

Thats about all I can think of right now, while There does have alot to offer, not all of it is great and alot of it has its pitfalls, the designer submissions and such especialy, the price of everything. The thing about the events is, and it has already been braught up, but there are alot of events that people just don't show up to for whatever reason, when you have 50 events going on, only 10 of those will get any show up, and about 30 of those events are made just to "skill up" in event hoster or whatever other thing. So while it would be nice to have alot more options, untill SL is alot bigger having that many events isn't really that great.

Alot of what There has *can* be done in SL, we just haven't done it, I think just about any build and model from There could be recreated in SL, there may be a few that could be trouble to make, but its all just polygons, drinks can be easily recreated, the racing tracks could too, even some of the scripted elements, the seating, chatgroups (which I'm actualy working on), most stuff from There can be remade, alot of it you really wouldn't care to, but the possibility is there.

The biggest thing for me in There was that the avatar animations were very natural.

1. When someone's talking, everyone who is idle looks at him/her, and sometimes nodding heads, as you'd expect in a conversation group.
   
2. Animation tweening is very smooth and natural. When moving from one posture to another, it looks like your avatar has a center of gravity, and is affected by inertia.
   
3. Body posture, especially while just idly standing around was very natural. Hands did not penetrate hips.
   
4. At no point during my time spent in There, did I ever see someone twist their arm into some dislocated-appearing position.
   
5. Faces were much more emotive.
   

Unfortunately, custom animations will *not* fix this for SL.

The problem is lower-level than the level at which custom animations will operate at.

To make much of this work in SL will require changes to the code which is run when we idle, when we're conversing or are near someone who is conversing, inter-animation tweening, and setting better i-k limits so we don't twist our arms around into impossible locations.

Beyond all of that, better *default* animations need to be implemented, because that is what everyone starts with, and will tend to stick to for some time.

I think it is a good thing people in SL need to submit events a day in advance and post them via the website. If somebody is too lazy to even go through this, then he/she is not serious enough to run a worthwhile event. Yes, sorry, quality also matters not only quantity.

I agree that character animations and movement on the ground (walking, running, climbing stairs,...) in SL are very bad, kinda spastic. They are bad enough to make people who take a look at SL quit right after seeing them. It is the kinda thing that makes potential players decide not to give SL a chance, before they really get into the game.

What SL is also missing badly, not compared to There but compared to most MMORPGs, is guided gameplay. A quest/task system that gives new players goals and a purpose. Players can build things to look at, but it is not easy/intuitive to build gameplay, to tell a story. Of course theoretically people could somehow script almost everything. But in practise the tools are missing. There are some text MUDs that allow players to script quests and quest NPCs. This would be nice to have in SL

There and SWG have chat bubbles. SL only has one chaotic text stream that tends to be spammed when more than 5 people are in a room. The SL chat interface is a mere desaster. Lots and lots of room for improvement

I don't understand why in SL you can only cache 1 GB of things. I have 10 GB on my harddisk that I could easily donate to caching. And why does my client seem to download buildings that I visited just a short while ago, kinda everytime I teleport? Even my own house? Most objects don't change that often. Wouldn't it be enough to only stream those objects that have been changed since downloaded the last time?

Mmmm, I think adding perma zones so that more people can play there with less lag would be very bad. They would compete with player owned areas and kinda render them obsolete. However I could think of a nice improvement. Why not allow players to turn their land into a permanent zone? They could decide when they are done building and turn off all editing. From that moment onwards their zone would only be downloaded once by visitors and remain cached on harddisk. Players could leave completed zones unchanged for weeks, maybe only do some maintenance once a month

IMHO flying is hurting SL. People only teleport and fly around, loosing every sense of geography or immersion in the world. Vehicles and roads also loose their meaning. Why get a car, boat or plane if I can teleport/fly anyway? Movement/travel becomes all arbitrary, easy, boring. In Shadowbane we had flying too, but it used up stamina really fast. Mmmm, yes, I think introduction of stamina would be really really nice To fly should be something special you can do sometimes for a short time. Of course you first have to implement walking/running that desserves to be called "walking" or "running

Ok I have never played There...just a few words:

Cris...yeah not being able to rez on the streets is kinda lame - having to look for a place to rez and then move the vehicle to the street isn't exactly user friendly.

Anshe...vehicles can be fun...not for transportation...for the hell of it...racing around in airboats...running cars off the end of a bridge that is unfinished sticking out over water...its a blast. Getting stuck in a lag attack when flying a chopper...looging back in to find you apache stuck in the side of a venice building...now thats hilarious.

The chat system itself is something I personally like...ok but I am also a net dinosaur who can remember text based browsers and html 1.0. I wouldn't want some Disney bubble popping up next me every time I say something.

Caching...is always kind of a split problem..on the one hand yes it may help a bit on the lag issues..on the other hand a too big cache will creat client lag as well as the tendency to not update correctly...meaning you might see stuff from your cache that is actually changed just because your cache still has that data stored.

For the guided gameplay...well there are the game devs...
I for instance do not play classic MMORPG's...they bore me to death...Planetside is ok...but its not really a RPG...its more of an FPS on a very large scale. If Planetside had some creativity features like SL I would be the first to jump onto Planetside.

I think the problem is that SL lacks definition...this not being a negative problem....it just poses a problem to many players - trying to decide what SL actually is. Just think about how often you are at the welcome area and some newcommer drops in and asks 'how do you play this' and the stuttering starts...


For the animation part....if we could slow the walk animation down to a non olympic marathon runner it would do wonders.

All in all I have the feeling that (this is only from impressions of There I got over hearsay so don't nail me down on this) There is a more sociable system where as SL bases a lot more on creativity. In the last while quite a few people are trying to bring that sociable feeling into SL - with some difficulties I suspect - seeing server limitations and such. It is definitely an idea to create a sim or two for large events...on the other hand I see the problem with that being costs...

Dropping in my $1L:

Calling the SL chat interface a 'disaster' is pretty strong, IMO. It's pretty much the same as IRC and any IM clients that have multiple people in the same window.

I've been a rabid IRC'er since college, so multithreading conversations isn't an effort for me. I'm not sure that chat bubbles would help sort this out to an appreciable degree, though, as it would seem to have the same end result of multiple conversations at the same time onscreen.

Yes, but in IRC and your normal chat client, there's no "world" in the background that's hidden by the chat window.

As a former long-time beta tester and player of There, I can tell you that I like the SL chat interface a lot. Those word balloons are tough to sort out at times and hopeless when it comes to holding large group conversations. I was in the Member's Advisory Committee and I can tell you we typically went into a chat program outside of There to hold meetings. Partly to avoid evesdropping, partly because it was just so tough to hold meetings of thirty or even a few less in a group.


Granted the vehicles are wonderful, the gravity engine is sweet and I loved being able to go around the world without running into blank areas. It was a lot of fun exploring that world and finding the 'seams' between zones and things the designers put there for us to find.


Having said that, I think I like our non-standardized, sometimes chaotic world. I love the freedom it offers.

Lumi

I did not say IRC or IM is better than SL chat interface. But compared to Star Wars Galaxies, or even Anarchy Online or Shadowbane, the SL chat interface falls short big time.

The big advantage of chat bubbles over IRC is that if a person speaks in a crowded room you can visually locate her speech. In big IRC meetings you have to turn on moderation and mute people. With chat bubbles people simply watch the speaker and ignore other people.

I know that it looks cartoonish, especially if badly implemented as in There. But it is no argument against the fact that it is both practical and immersive. Immersive because it allows you to look at the speaker AV's face at the same time as reading his/her speech.

Chat bubbles should not replace chat windows though. People should have a choice, like in SWG, and be able to use one or both the way they feel most comfortable

The biggest lesson SL can learn from There? Pardon my shouting, but...

Never ignore your customers so you can focus on developing a GUI for other companies to buy.

In response to ANshe's posting, chat bubbles are a terrible design decision. There has no chat logs that I know of, so once someone says something, it's gone.

Not to mention that chat bubbles take up a ton of screen real estate, where a chat log would take up a lot less and be more orderly.

However, Anshe did bring up a good suggestion... making SL more "structured" for the incoming newbie. It would be trivial to script a "welcome bot" that flies in front of an avatar, talks them through some basic stuff, and then gives them a "quest" to do (get a free scooter at the telehub, or go find the Digeridoo Tower in Tan). Doing such things will immediately immerse someone into the world, AND give them a better grasp of the SL universe.

In fact, I'm going to post this idea in general discussion so more people see this. Thanks anshe!

LF

There has a *chat history* feature that allows you to see what was typed, if you miss anything

Leilany

And text logs of all IMs and conversations in There are automatically kept in a There program subdirectory.

To be honest, when suggesting chat bubbles I more have Star Wars Galaxies in mind. I once looked at There screenshots and realized that chat bubbles in there look kinda awkward. Maybe There also runs with lower screen resolution than SWG or SL.

Of course any such feature like chat bubbles needs to be optional so you can turn it on and off as you like. And you should be able to configure the maximum AV distance to display chat bubbles, font size and how long bubbles are displayed before they fade

SWG also has, in addition to chat bubbles, a full fletched text windows chat interface. When I played SWG then I tended to read the text window in less crowded situations and when things became too much I turned my attention to the chat bubbles. This was so intuitive I usually not even noticed me doing that