Some TOS help please?

Hi,

I own a texture store.

I sell all my textures with full rights, I have met customers who also own texture stores who IM me first asking if I did indeed offer full resell rights as they want to resell them in their store.
They like me realise most sales are down to luck of the draw, if some-one happens to be on your land and sees the textures they like..they will buy.
So I sell them like that and am aware people will no doubt go and resell them in some cases. Thats economy to me...its the way of the world
we buy 12 DVDs from a store and have the right to sell them on in eBay...so long as they have resell rights then thats the rules yeah?


Anyhow...thats the MORAL thoughts.

I was given a whole bunch of really good textures 2 mths ago from a friend of a friend

They had full rights, he simply said " here...i have too many textures..maybe you could use these?"

So I loaded them into the store. ( i would like to point out that I do upload a lot of textures from the NET and spend a lot of time looking for unique stuff for ppl ) anyway I had seen these textures in other ppls texture stores..the exact same ones...so assumed like my shop many textures in SL were recycled eventualy ...got passed about and resold time & time again

So i get an IM from a person today asking why I was selling their textures which were in actual fact freebies in SL...i exlplained were I got them from...and that I wasnt aware they were 'freebies' that most of my texture were uploaded ..blah blah..she/he got very upset...had already reported an abuse report?

went on about ' didnt it occur to me to contact the creator b4 I resold?' and no It didnt as i sell mine with full rights and no-one had ever asked me if they could resell.

So anyway...this is a first for me...I am confused as Ive looked in the TOS and community standards and cant find anything that indicates I have been 'abusive'

I found this 'Linden Lab does not exercise editorial control over the content of Second Life, and will make no specific efforts to review the textures, objects, sounds or other content created within Second Life but thats it.

Is this just a moral factor? Or am I indeed being abusive?

I have deleted the texture bundles in question and told the person how sorry I was and that I had deleted them but they were STILL banging on about me ripping off other ppl so im afraid I got naffed off and told him/her to get a REAL LIFE!

This is a reflection of the real world...in the real world..when ppl buy something..it becomes THEIRS to do as they wish. In SL if the perms are set to 'resell & transfer' then you must be aware that they will be used just as the perms are set...to resell and transfer.

Its upto the owner to set it that way.

I am truely sorry i had sold textures that had been handed out freely in sandboxes...but as i say i saw them in other texture stores and sold all my stuff with the same rights...I know the outcome and there-for cannot complain if i see my stuff being resold..thats economy folks...

So just a moral difference or legal issue? ( in a SL way? ) as im unsure what to do...with an abuse report now?

Many Thanks

Lillybeth

Textures are a sticky issue.

Becaue for them to be usefull, they basicly have to have full perms...

But full perms are flawed, because then the next owner has the right to do ANYTHING with them.

Textures need an option that reads like "Transfer only if applied".

If the textures are actually original textures, though, the creator still has copyright on them.

And if they are freebies, and you're reselling them, that's just wrong.

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Yes, I agree ( hence I have deleted them from the store)
But as i explained. They were given to me..I didnt pick them up from some 'junk yard' as apparently they are left...had i seen them at junk yards I certainly wouldnt be so bold as to bang them up for sale...cuz thats dumb...obviously sooner or later id get an ear full of verbal abuse...
I was given them from a guy who simply said ' i have too many..here maybe you could use them'
They were REALLY good...and certainly something I wouldnt expect to see as a freebie.

Anyway...i am not debating the moral rights & wrongs..i know this will be a never ending debate..what I am asking is

' is this a moral wrong or does the person in question have grounds to report me under the 'abuse' TOS?'

As from what I have read....they dont.

Thanks In advance

If the ToS gives them any recourse or not is iffy; it has sometimes, sometimes it hasn't.

They do, however, have the right to file a DMCA takedown order with Linden Labs, which will force LL to take action if ownership of IP copyright can be established. LL has said in the past that this is the last recourse of anyone if all else fails.

You are refering to if they actualy made them in a paintprogram?

well im not sure , doubt it but really dont know.

As far as I can see...if said person has ticked ' resell/transfer' then they dont have a SL legal leg to stand on.

Right or wrong...thats the way SL has set its legalities in world to the sale of items.

Unfortunatly your correct. It's not right, but that is the unfortunate state of things.

However, don't dismiss the DMCA threat. THere are people in SL who take things like this very, very seriously.

As many in-game textures are imported by texture vendors from copyright encumbered sources (If no statement is made about granting usage rights on an image, it is by default copyright) you may wish to inquire of the complaintant if they assert copyright over the texture or are just upset that you are benefitting from their upload fee. Please note that finding a web image and making it tilable or blue does not typically turn it into a novel creation and the copyright still adheres to the original. One of my favorite vendors clearly notes that the sold textures are open-perm to allow them to be useful, but please don't resell as textures. I respect that as a matter of courtesy, not of law, as I don't believe that vendor to hold the copyright to many of them (nor do I sell textures). Many conciencious merchants of this type often put such a request in the description field.

I view most of the value added by texture vendors - as opposed to bona fide creators - in the organization and cataloguing of their wares, a service that I am willing to pay for. Moreover, it is better to have multiple copies of one texture than multiple imports of the same bitmap as SL treats multiple copies as one asset which makes for one fewer (expensive) download to everyone's client.

That said, do respect DMCA take-down requests as they require the complaintant to swear (affirm) that they are the copyright holder. Going against that affirmation (even if untrue) does make you look like a miscreant.

Reitsuki

Textures are a sticky issue.

Becaue for them to be usefull, they basicly have to have full perms...

But full perms are flawed, because then the next owner has the right to do ANYTHING with them.

Textures need an option that reads like "Transfer only if applied".
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I think 'transfer only if applied' is an excellent solution. I have given up buying textures in SL purely because I cannot apply the texture to an item whhich I then wish to sell. No transfer makes the texture useless to me, and I suspect to the majority of other residents.

LillyBeth

In your circumstances, I think I would have checked to see who the creator of the textures was. If it was not the person who gave them to you, I would probably not put them up for sale. But its easy to say this in hindsight isn't it. I hope it works out well for you.

Alexa

I don't even want to vote on your poll as i feel it don't have enought options
You are reselling my textures. they were sold with all rights becouse they are useless for builders to use in funitures that they sell otherwise.
but i stated on selling point that they were not to be resold.
Anyway i knew it always a danger that they are resold. and all thought i would never even consider doing this to another person in sl, that is just my own morals. reselling once an object that is no copy yes . reselling again and again to make money on something you bought of others, well that is just not something i would do.
but you are right we don't really have a leg to stand on.The lindens better figure a better way of doing it. i have asked you to remove the textures with me as creator and i hope you will follow my wishes.
And for everyone else that want those textures, they are going to be sett as freebies in a friends shop, look in picks on my profile to see where.

And have you considered if your friend tells you here maybe you can use them he is not telling you to resell them but to use when you build?

If you actually created the textures, from scratch as opposed to modifying ones you bought in a texture collection, or found on google or something, there IS something you can do. File a DMCA takedown request with Linden Labs.

The ebay/DVD analogy mentioned does not apply because it would still cost resources/money to duplicate the DVDs and then deliver them, regardless of permission to do so.

Yes, I have removed all textures now that werent origianly uploaded or created by myself.
This whole experience has opened my eyes as I REALLY didnt see textures as a creation unless of course they were made by a playerin a paint program.
I assumed textures to be simply images found on the NET or graphic websites that are downloaded to your PC then uploaded to SL ( in some cases I have added alpha layers when required) and then ticked all the perms on each. file them in your inventory then bundle them up with the TU script..etc...it is a painfully long drawn out process that does cost to upload BUT by no stretch of imagination is it a 'creation'
I would NEVER sell something over & over again such as a fashion design or something that required the time & talent of a player in photoshop...I can fully understand how imoral that is...infact thats theft in my view...but in all honesty..I had bought many textures when I first started in SL...later I decided to start a Texture store as I cant design for love nor money so it seemed the obvious choice and I simply didnt think twice when I went through my textures both those I uploaded myself mixed with those I had bought in world..and started putting them out for display...no I didnt think twice...thats the truth.

After starting to sell textures...I would notice odd sales...one person had bought one of everything I owned almost...and I just KNEW this person was more than likely going to resell but I she/he had spent 5K on buying them from me...it had cost me much less to upload them ( plus the searching and work involved filing and displaying and rent on the land ect) so I didnt see the harm...they paid for them...so its upto them what they do...they werent 'mine' to start with...as you pointed out...I got them from the internet..so all I can complain about is the cost of the upload and the time I took to find them.

Had I found them reselling some outfit or avatar I had created HELL yeah id be very angry..thats personal...thats MY talent...

But Textures? anyone can find them on the net...ppl pay for the convenience of not 'having' to search for them so I dont get so uptight about what happens to them after a player buys them off me.

Its a personal issue I suppose. But one I have learnt from...I could of got all stubbor about it and refused but Im not here to make enemies...I have done the right thing...removed the textures in question...said sorry and will ensure this never happens again..other than that...I cannot do anymore really,

The matter is now closed as far as I am concerend..a lesson learnt.

LillyBeth

The problem is you have no way of knowing where most textures came from. Plenty of people do make their own textures. Most people I know personally do, actually.

Yes, don't assume that noone in SL is capable of creating their own textures from scratch. The internet is there for those who ca't, but a lot of the really good textures you se in SL were created, from scratch, by those who can.

As for reselling textures and your poll, the problem is that the creator can't insert a notecard into that texture to retain rights. The only way a creator can retain rghts current;y is by adding a copyright or terms of use text directly on the texture. This is fine for non-tile textures which can then be stretched/positioned to hide the copyright statement. But, LL neds to allow space somewhere for a creator to retain rights... maybe a locked "Rights" text field like the "Description" field... which only the creator (not owner) can modify.

But Arwen, did you or did you not create those textures yourself in a paintprogram? I would really like to know!

WHY, why is it so importent for you to know?

but hey i have nothing to hide so i will let your mind at rest.
it's about 50-50. half of them are downloaded. some i have payes the maker rl money for rights to use. some i don't even now who made. most of those are downloaded from nett then fixed to be tiled.
The rest i made myself. And to say i used to sell them off for 5L a texture. so you got tiled and ready to go textures for less then upload cost.
Of coursenow they can be found free

Did that answer your question?

ANdLillybeth when it comes to have removed them..., you seem to have forgotten to remove alot of mine then. i am sure that is just a miss and it will be done

Okay kids, its pretty simple. Here are the two rules on how to be a decent person with respect to "fair use":

1. If its available for free ANYWHERE - on the web or in SL - do *NOT* sell it. If you downloaded it for free from a texture web site... don't sell it. If you downloaded an animation BVH file for free from the web... don't sell it. If you found Jai's stuff at the dollar store with full permissions... don't sell it!

2. If you didn't make it, don't sell it, unless you have a notecard from the creator giving you expressed written permission to sell it.

The one exception would be reselling something that you don't have copy permissions on, that you bought on a one time sale. Live by these two rules and you'll be making an honest dollar. Break them, and you may even be committing a crime, besides lacking common sense. Most free texture sites are free for NON-COMMERCIAL use, IE, don't make money on them. That doesn't mean the person who created the anim or texture in Poser or Photoshop wants you getting rich off their hard work.

I've always found it kind of amusing when I see things like a Matrix movie poster on a prim for sale for L$200 - OOOO, it takes a lot of skill to download a JPEG online, upload it, and put it on a prim. YE GADS!

Just my two cents!

-Muppet

Arwen, while it sounds like you may be doing a service with tiling certain textures, be sure you get permission from the original creators, or check the sites to make sure you have the right to do so.

You could be violating someone's intellectual property and most textures are made by starving artists... not big megacorps like Microsoft!

-Muppet

First of hun, i went out of the sellign texture biz months ago i just entered it again but i am not selling they all set at 0.
Done so so there is no need for anyone to steal anything of mine it's easy to find all free.
So please read my post again and if it was not clear i'm sorry.

Anyway did i have a need to defend myself or something? i don't belive so.