Is OpenGL the right choice for SL?
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blaze Spinnaker
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Join date: 12 Aug 2004
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08-06-2005 12:48
I found this article interesting: From: someone Now, let's get another little thing out of the way for just a moment, and that's OpenGL versus DirectX. Four or five years ago, OpenGL was the bees knees and DirectX was the red-headed stepchild. No longer. Pretty much every game released today is DirectX. There are a few notable exceptions, but they are the exceptions. OpenGL largely has itself to blame for this, for while it took ages for OpenGL to reach the 2.0 milestone, Microsoft has been radically increasing the functionality of DirectX. Game developers, knowing their largest market is the Windows platform, have gone where the money is, and Microsoft has done a lot to make DirectX very, very attractive to them, both from a financial standpoint and a performance standpoint. And while the idea of cross-platform gaming is a neat idea, I don't think too many game developers and producers lose too much sleep wondering how they're going to market to Mac OS X or Linux gamers; there are simply too few of them to matter. It's not nice to say that here, but it is the truth.
As for professional applications, typically the stronghold of OpenGL, even that has been fading. 3D Studio Max, one of the most popular 3D applications for the Windows platform, now strongly recommends you use the DirectX drivers versus OpenGL. Performance is usually better, and you get to make use of all the DirectX features implemented in hardware on gaming-derived video cards like nVidia's Quadro line. For a while, DirectX stability in these apps was dicey and OpenGL was rock solid, but even that has now been reverse. 3DS Max 7.5's OpenGL is noticeably slower and buggier than its DirectX, again a reflection of where developers are spending their development and Q&A time. Maya, Lightwave, and others are in similar positions. OpenGL won't go away, but it is slowly being marginalized. That's been going on for a while.
There's a lot of angst over what this will do the OSS platform since DirectX is solidly proprietary. Unfortunately, the answer isn't one you're going to like. Nobody, not Autodesk, not Microstation, not Adobe, not anybody in the large-scale commercial software space really gives two damns about the OSS market right now. And why should they? It represents an amazingly tiny fraction of their global market, yet would very likely consume a disproportionate amount of the overall support, troubleshooting, and Q&A resources available. That's not a winning combination for any company. Furthermore, most OSS adherents don't like paying for their software, and they certainly don't like paying $4,000-$10,000 for major OpenGL-based design packages. Thus, not only is the market tiny, it's unreceptive as well. Again, if the OSS market is wondering why no one is paying them attention, you don't have to think on it very hard to see why.
The good news here is that the OSS community can do whatever it damn well pleases with OpenGL. Don't want to follow the DirectX bandwagon? Write your own OpenGL app. Who knows? If it's done well, it might actually gain a foothold. But I sure wouldn't bet on it. I wish I could, because I'd love to see more competition in this arena, but I'm too much of a pragmatist to really have much faith in this area. Companies are going to keep using -- and paying for -- what works for them, and what works for them is what has always worked for them. Microstation shops generally stay Microstation shops. Ditto for Autodesk. Ditto ditto for Maya, Lightwave, 3DS Max, Photoshop, After Effects, and every other major commercial media app out there. OSS alternative may be available and free, but companies aren't going to convert to them just because they're free. They need to be better and free. They need to work well with all the entrenched applications. Without that, the TCO of a conversion far exceeds the cost of the commercial software, so nobody's going to do it except a few OSS diehards willing to put up with the tremendous risks, costs, and headaches associated with a platform move.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
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08-06-2005 13:00
How much DirectX is there on Linux or MacOS? How much OpenGL on those?
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Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
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08-06-2005 13:05
as Jillian says: cross platform. I think that makes opengl a very good choice, according to LL
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Tiger Crossing
The Prim Maker
Join date: 18 Aug 2003
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08-06-2005 13:17
Is air the right choice for breathing?
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paulie Femto
Into the dark
Join date: 13 Sep 2003
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Open Gl 2.0
08-06-2005 13:25
OPEN GL 2.0 can perform the same tricks as DIRECT X: v2.0 of the OpenGL specification has been released by the OpenGL Architecture review board. The release brings the specification right up to date, with the following features added (as stated on the opengl.org announcement): * Programmable shading [because] both OpenGL Shading Language and its APIs are now core features of OpenGL. New functionality includes the ability to create shader and program objects; and the ability to write vertex and fragment shaders in OpenGL Shading Language. * Multiple render targets that enable programmable shaders to write different values to multiple output buffers in a single pass. * Non-power-of-two textures for all texture targets, thereby supporting rectangular textures and reducing memory consumption. * Two-sided stencil, with the ability to define stencil functionality for the front and back faces of primitives, improving performance of shadow volume and constructive solid geometry rendering algorithms. * Point sprites, which replace point texture coordinates with texture coordinates interpolated across the point. This allows drawing points as customized textures, useful for particle systems. OPEN GL 2.0 is now supported 100% by the latest Nvidia drivers. Not being an ATI user, I couldn't tell you ATI's level of support for OGL 2.0. Microsoft phears OPEN GL and has a strategy to kill it. See this thread: /120/eb/56685/1.htmlI hope Linden Lab stays with an open standard instead of falling for the MS Marketing hype that only serves to enrich MS and reduce choice for users.
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blaze Spinnaker
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Join date: 12 Aug 2004
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08-06-2005 13:29
It's a very interesting dicussion, and one I wasn't even aware of.
Microsoft has a lot riding on killing open GL. In some ways, Open GL is a competing operating system.
Would SL be more stable if it wasn't built on open GL?
Given that more people use the microsoft technologies, it no doubt gets far greater QA resources than Open GL.
Maybe a lot of the bugs and crashing are caused by not completely QA'd versions of OpenGL rather than something LL is doing wrong.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
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08-06-2005 14:15
The new version of Windows being developed "emulates" OpenGL support THROUGH DirectX, but only up to version 1.4. This is Windows Vista, the oft-delayed and features-gutted replacement to Windows XP. Current features seem to be: 1) Decreased control over your own computer; 2) Increased stranglehold on competetive products (MSIE is being re-integrated, OpenGL is being shafted); 3) A shinier, 3d-accelerated GUI that will slow down your computer, 4) Higher minimum specs. I'll be sticking with XP for a while, I think.  LF
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Lordfly Digeridoo
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08-06-2005 14:16
From: blaze Spinnaker Would SL be more stable if it wasn't built on open GL?
Well, it simply wouldn't be running on Linux or Mac, so I guess that would make it more "stable"...
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Cristiano Midnight
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08-06-2005 14:36
From: blaze Spinnaker It's a very interesting dicussion, and one I wasn't even aware of.
Microsoft has a lot riding on killing open GL. In some ways, Open GL is a competing operating system.
Would SL be more stable if it wasn't built on open GL?
Given that more people use the microsoft technologies, it no doubt gets far greater QA resources than Open GL.
Maybe a lot of the bugs and crashing are caused by not completely QA'd versions of OpenGL rather than something LL is doing wrong. You are asking an interesting question, Blaze - which boils down to - would the Windows client perform better if it used DirectX as its underlying graphics library instead of OpenGL. Unfortunately, you have to wade through a lot of anti-MS zealotry to get to any kind of real answer. I do think that ultimately, they made the right choice in using OpenGL from a cross-platform standpoint (so that they don't have to have different graphics code essentially) - However, as Microsoft and hardware companies both have moved very aggressively with DirectX to offer new features and get support built into hardware, the answer is yes, most likely the Windows client would perform better had it been built for DirectX, especially on higher end video cards optimized for DirectX.
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Cristiano Midnight
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08-06-2005 14:41
From: Lordfly Digeridoo The new version of Windows being developed "emulates" OpenGL support THROUGH DirectX, but only up to version 1.4. This is Windows Vista, the oft-delayed and features-gutted replacement to Windows XP. Current features seem to be: 1) Decreased control over your own computer; 2) Increased stranglehold on competetive products (MSIE is being re-integrated, OpenGL is being shafted); 3) A shinier, 3d-accelerated GUI that will slow down your computer, 4) Higher minimum specs. I'll be sticking with XP for a while, I think.  LF  Have you even used Vista, LF? 1) Decreased control in what way exactly? 2) Re-integrated? IE has remained integrated into Windows - including XP - there is no deeper integration in Vista - there is however an updated version of IE. How exactly is Open GL being shafted? Video card makers put support directly into their drivers - so unless you are using a built in Microsoft driver for your video card, which would be stupid, it has zero impact. 3) A hardware accelerated, scaleable interface - on lower end video cards, it does not look much different than XP, and it is completely configureable. 4) Windows XP had higher minimum specs than Windows 98 and ME. Mac OS X had higher specs than MacOS 9. What exactly is the point?
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Lordfly Digeridoo
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08-06-2005 16:04
Okay, I'll admit, I'm half trolling. However... From: Cristiano Midnight 3) A hardware accelerated, scaleable interface - on lower end video cards, it does not look much different than XP, and it is completely configureable.
But I don't WANT a hardware accelerated desktop. I want it to run quietly, efficiently in the background while I run, you know, STUFF... games, SL, etc. I don't want the 30,000 polygon start bar twirling around in the background, eating ram, processor speed, and video power. Even the current Windows shell is annoying for me; I'd love to be able to strip it down further (ala Aston or Litestep), but alas, I'm too lazy. From: someone 4) Windows XP had higher minimum specs than Windows 98 and ME. Mac OS X had higher specs than MacOS 9. What exactly is the point?
If I'm not mistaken, Windows XP had some major feature enhancements over 98/ME, and so did OSX over MacOS 9. What, exactly, is Vista bringing to the table for me, the clueless end user? Every time I read something about MS's new operating system, it's either a) delayed, or b) the shiny new feature that would have revolutionized everything ever has been taken out. LF
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Andrew Linden
Linden staff
Join date: 18 Nov 2002
Posts: 692
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08-06-2005 16:21
I wouldn't compare OpenGL to an "operating system" as was suggested above. It is merely an API standard to speciailized hardware.
The only thing MicroSoft has to gain by degrading support for OpenGL is to foster monopoly advantages to the Window's operating system. However,I believe the recent news about MicroSoft hobbling OpenGL on their next version of Windows is either alarmism or FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt). In short, much ado about nothing. I expect OpenGL to perform very well on Longhorn when it actually launches.
In any case, as far as I can tell there is unanamous approval of OpenGL over DirectX within the LL developer pool. Primarily for portability, but also for helping to maintain sanity. I don't expect we'll be switching to DirectX soon.
The answer to the question is: "Yes.".
Edit -- fixed typo.
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Zonax Delorean
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Join date: 5 Jun 2004
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08-06-2005 16:36
From: someone Furthermore, most OSS adherents don't like paying for their software I think this is a misconception, though, especially in SL, everyone pays, so this part is not even applicable. I have some non-OSS friends who copy ("steal"  all kinds of software without raising an eyebrow: be it Windows, Office, 3D Studio, Photoshop. But me? I use OpenOffice, GIMP, etc., but when I need to, I shell out money if it seems reasonable or unavoidable -- 15 USD Transgaming WineX - didn't work with SL + ATI though  , 100 USD Windows XP Home, 10 USD GetRight, etc.. Granted, I would've saved all that if I could run SL on Linux, and okay, maybe I'm not 'most', but I still think Windows home users are more used to not paying a dime than Linux ppl.
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Adam Zaius
Deus
Join date: 9 Jan 2004
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08-06-2005 16:39
Having coded a good deal of time in both DirectX and OpenGL, I do feel somewhat qualified to agree with LL. There are a few reasons (I'm busy right now, so I cant go into too much detail however, as follows  1- DirectX has zero crossplatform compatibility.OpenGL can run on over 47 architectures (and has 3D accelleration on a good deal of them.) 2- DirectX is slower than OpenGL for similar apps, OpenGL also introduces less library bloat into your application in most situations. 3- OpenGL is more versatile,and gives the programmer more control over the final rendering output.This is extremely important for something like SL where standard 3D ground rules go out the window. (no BSP trees, no prerendering or prelighting) 4- OpenGL is a nonproprietry open standard; it's direction is headed by an architecture review board who is controlled by all the major players in the 3D industry; not just Microsoft. 5- OpenGL 2.0 brings OpenGL to, and beyond the latest DirectX feature sets.The current OpenGL 1.4 spec is roughly comparable to DirectX 9, with the exception of some Vertex/Pixel shaders which have to be handled through OpenGL extensions. As a general preference, I find OpenGL is much faster to work with, requires a lot less debugging in the end - and of course there is the final reason for LL to stay with OpenGL: to switch would require them to rewrite all their rendering code, without a good reason. -Adam
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blaze Spinnaker
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08-06-2005 16:57
From: someone I wouldn't compare OpenGL to an "operating system" as was suggested above. It is merely an API standard to speciailized hardware.
The OS is all about the API. And maybe it's not a full class OS, but it could be considered an OS for the gaming industry. Some people obsess over MFC others obsess over OpenGL ISVs don't produce for other OSs because of the cool start button. They do it because, like Adam said, the switching costs are too high. However, things can be done, such as coding a facade which decreases the switching costs. One question though, an important one I think: what is industry QA like for OpenGL versus Microsoft graphics technologies on the hardware? If OpenGL isn't getting the QA time Microsoft is, then we (the SL residents) are the ones suffering. I'd like to think we're a priority over the LL developer pool.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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blaze Spinnaker
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08-06-2005 17:07
From: someone 1- DirectX has zero crossplatform compatibility.OpenGL can run on over 47 architectures (and has 3D accelleration on a good deal of them.)
Yeah.. I'm not sure how practical that reason is. Sometimes our zealotry makes us do foolish things. From: someone 2- DirectX is slower than OpenGL for similar apps, OpenGL also introduces less library bloat into your application in most situations.
How much slower? I wasn't getting that impression. As for the library bloat.. in the high bandwidth world of SL, it's not clear that it matters. From: someone 3- OpenGL is more versatile,and gives the programmer more control over the final rendering output.This is extremely important for something like SL where standard 3D ground rules go out the window. (no BSP trees, no prerendering or prelighting)
This seems to me the number one reason. From: someone 4- OpenGL is a nonproprietry open standard; it's direction is headed by an architecture review board who is controlled by all the major players in the 3D industry; not just Microsoft.
Interestingly, it may be pretty hard to get bought out by microsoft because of this choice. From: someone 5- OpenGL 2.0 brings OpenGL to, and beyond the latest DirectX feature sets.The current OpenGL 1.4 spec is roughly comparable to DirectX 9, with the exception of some Vertex/Pixel shaders which have to be handled through OpenGL extensions.
Cool, but what's the support like. How stable is it on the hardware.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
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08-06-2005 21:13
OpenGL is OS independant, DirectX is Microsoft. I think that's reason enough. The Internet is a global, OS independant standard. Likewise, so must the Metaverse, and consequently, SL.
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Pol Tabla
synthpop saint
Join date: 18 Dec 2003
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08-06-2005 22:28
I think having Mac users is an important competitive advantage for SL. A small one to be sure, but they do add up. And when our Linux brethren finally have a client of their own...
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
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08-07-2005 04:51
VRML hasn't yet noticed it is dead but I lean toward Videotex myself. Nine million Minitel users can't be wrong.  As Linden Lab moved from DirectSound to FMOD when they realized that developer support from Microsoft was an oxymoron, I think the likelihood that they'd return to BDMS for any tech is very low.
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blaze Spinnaker
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08-07-2005 05:00
I often wonder how much of this open source is a battle for VC attention.
I know in the valley there is a lot of VC money thrown at competitors to microsoft so when new companies come along that join the forces of "good", they get a piece of the action.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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