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Transcript of Roundtable with Andrew Linden

Iron Perth
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 802
09-18-2005 17:21

Iron Perth: Welcome to a Roundtable with Andrew Linden - he's the one in the big chair.
Iron Perth: Over the next 60 minutes everyone seated will get 5 minutes to have a Q&A session with one of the original engineers of SecondLife and co-inventor (along with Cory and Philip Linden) of the patent application "Distributed Simulation"
Iron Perth: Some may elect to forgo their five minutes. If this happens, I will use the rest of the time for physics related questions. Please IM me if you have such a question and the conch (or particle beam) will be turned over to you.
Andrew Linden: Oh well. I'm seated
Iron Perth: Heh
Hiro Queso is online
Iron Perth: So with that, let's start with the avatar clockwise to Andrew.
Andrew Linden: Hi everybody.
Iron Perth: Huns, did you want to start with the first question?
Huns Valen: Osprey is typing
Osprey Therian: I am passing - CS - you want to ask a question in my stead?
CrystalShard Foo: Not yet.
Huns Valen: alright then
Iron Perth: Please IM me if you'd like to pass.
Huns Valen: Is there a chance we might get a joystick API? Something that would let users map axes, buttons, hat switches etc. in a way our scripts could read. That's all I have to ask.
Huns Valen: (Mouse axes count too)
Andrew Linden: Yes it is possible, but not on the schedule at all that I know of.
Andrew Linden: There is some work to be done in the protocol between the client and server to make it possible.
Andrew Linden: At the moment we really do only send keystrokes.
Andrew Linden: What we would need is a different format, to allow much more resolution in the controls being sent.
Huns Valen: That would be a lot better than "on/off." Thanks for your time :)
Iron Perth: Ok, great.
Iron Perth: Oz?
Oz Spade: I'll wait for andrew to finish typing. :)
Andrew Linden: I don't know what the timeline would be for that, but it seems like it should happen before 2.0... I'll try to make it so.
Huns Valen: splendid
Oz Spade: My question is feature releated, one that might get lower on the list. But would it be possible to add more Chat oriented features? Such as Auto-chat log saving, coloring for meetings such as this (or @ like IRC), optional time stamps, menus from names c
Oz Spade: clicked, and especialy clickable URLS?
Oz Spade: Basic chat features you'd expect in most other programs.
Andrew Linden: Better chat would be really cool, and some of those features you listed don't seem like they would be very hard.
Andrew Linden: I don't know of any of the developers who have better chat on their list of pet projects
Andrew Linden: but I can bring it up in the lab to see if anyone is interested
Oz Spade: Cool, thank you. :D
Andrew Linden: Really, those ideas seem totally doable, we would just have to fit them in.
Andrew Linden: I do know that there has been some talk around the lab about how we need better IM features.
Oz Spade: Yeah, I agree with that as well.
Andrew Linden: In particular, Gwenyth Llewelyn (sp?) had a blog entry
Andrew Linden: criticizing our chat and the link was passed around the office.
Andrew Linden: If we did a major overhaul of IM then I would expect some of the work to spill over into the chat fucntionality as well.
Oz Spade: That'd be awsome. :)
Iron Perth: ok, cool. Just FYI, if you do have something more to say, let me know by enabling your typing animation (hit the 'a' key or something). Strife?
Strife Onizuka: Ok i have a small pile of issues
Andrew Linden: Ask the first.
Strife Onizuka: first being how are the new features slated for 1.7 coming, being the web integration and havok 2
Andrew Linden: Those were the two main features that were cut from 1.7
Andrew Linden: because they were not ready in time
You have offered friendship to Jackal Ennui.
Strife Onizuka: will we see them in a late release of 1.7 or should we expect 1.8?
Blood21 shouts: Host changed to Kinga Svarog
Andrew Linden: We're planning on changing (in the middle of it really) how we work on new features in the lab
Andrew Linden: we used to make a big list of things we wanted to get done by the next point release
Andrew Linden: then start working on them
Andrew Linden: and when we got close to the deadline
Andrew Linden: we would have to cut what didn't make it
Andrew Linden: the key here was that all of the developers were in the same branch of code
Andrew Linden: the new system will be to form small teams, each team working on their own branch
Andrew Linden: when it is done they will check it into the trunk of the codebase
Andrew Linden: (branch, trunk are terms often used in sourcecode management)
Andrew Linden: so the next release will be a product of the new system
Strife Onizuka: sounds reasonable and good idea SL has grown beyond the scale of a few programers now
Andrew Linden: wich means we expect to ship smaller sets of features more often
Andrew Linden: so this means that when the web browser stuff is done, and tested, then we will ship it -- Havok-2 will not slow it down, nor the other way around
Andrew Linden: Lets move on to the next person, I hope to go around more than once
Strife Onizuka: next bone to pick, avatars haven't chanaged much since the system was designed
Strife Onizuka: oh ok ~+~
Iron Perth: heh heh
Andrew Linden: so I'll try to get back to you Strife.
Seifert Surface: we'll go quickly :)
Iron Perth: As andrew said, we should probably try to be fair here 1st go around
Pendari Lorentz: hey everyone =)
Seifert Surface: So I was at the "Accelerating Change" tutorial last Friday, at Stanford, and Cory spoke briefly about extra controls for sim owners - eg turning off energy restrictions on prims and so on.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hiya :)
Iron Perth: Sierfert?
Seifert Surface: Could you expand some on the plans for this sort of thing? What kind of things will sim owners be able to play with?
Andrew Linden: I can't comment much, since some of that is news to me.
Andrew Linden: The details anyway
AnneDroid Lily: (hi pen)
Pendari Lorentz: *wink*
Andrew Linden: I know that we've talked about giving estate owners and parcel owners more control over which script calls can be made on their land
Seifert Surface: right, i guess more generally people have wanted more control over gravity, appearance and so on of private sims
Andrew Linden: instead of just giving them a very blunt tool of "no outside scripts"
Andrew Linden: however it isn't clear how we would implement that yet, and I suspect that controls at that resolution
Andrew Linden: will come after the next script engine upgrade (aka MONO)
Andrew Linden: as to other controls of estate owners...
Andrew Linden: There are a few administrative powers that Linden staff have that I think should be opened up to estate owners
Andrew Linden: that is, existing features that just need the authentication pipeline put in
Andrew Linden: I know that we plan on opening up some of those
Andrew Linden: and we'll probably add some of the ones Cory mentioned, but I don't know what the short list would be.
Andrew Linden: Next.
Seifert Surface: thank you
Iron Perth: heh
Iron Perth: Well I had been hoping for a bit more give and take here, but maybe I can get that going
Iron Perth: Is physics all havoc2 or custom?
Pendari Lorentz: *who do we send IM questions to?
Iron Perth: IM me pendari
Andrew Linden: Could you elaborate on that Iron?
Andrew Linden: I'm not sure I understood the question.
Iron Perth: Well, do you have any custom physics you have implemented or are you just passing through to havoc mostly?
Andrew Linden: Oh, it is all through Havok for the most part.
Andrew Linden: The only custom stuff we have are known as "actions" to the Havok engine
Iron Perth: Ok, for a ball then.. if I wanted to get it bouncing nice what would you suggest then? Get my own havoc engine and play with it?
Andrew Linden: but that is pretty standard for how the havok API is supposed to be used.
Andrew Linden: Well, the only way to do a nice bouncing ball in SL would be to script it
Andrew Linden: One of the reasons we don't have very bouncy stuff here in SL
Andrew Linden: is that back when we first got the physics engine hooked up
Andrew Linden: we had problems making stuff settle down
Iron Perth: How about sinking? Is that havoc or an issue of SL?
Andrew Linden: ... instability issues, so I did much of the work to find the instability issues and fix them
Iron Perth: Like when a ball sinks through the ground
Andrew Linden: if you had bouncy balls then things could go unstable for very small balls
Andrew Linden: Sinking... sinking through the ground, through objects?
Iron Perth: both heh
Andrew Linden: That is a problem with the physics engine... maybe.
Andrew Linden: I can think of more than one situation and I'm not sure which one you're talking about.
Andrew Linden: The bug is that if some of the bounding box information of an object gets corrupt
Andrew Linden: then the physics engine might not detect the collision properly.
Andrew Linden: The other, which is not quite a bug, but more of a limitation to our tuning of the engine
Andrew Linden: is that two objects that get into interpenetration with each other
Andrew Linden: no longer collide
Andrew Linden: they used to get pushed out from each other, but we had too many
Andrew Linden: easy sim-bombs wo we had to
Andrew Linden: eiliminate the interpenetration resolution between such objects.
Andrew Linden: Incidentally, Havok-1 doesn't have a built in interpenetration resolution system
Andrew Linden: but Havok-2 does.
Andrew Linden: Next.
Iron Perth: ahh
Jeffrey Gomez: Sure. Leave it to me to grok the notecard wrong and read 4pm.
Iron Perth: Hey AnneDroid
AnneDroid Lily: Hi and thanks for coming :)
AnneDroid Lily: One thing promised to the community since it's implimentation of XML-RPC outbound, what are the plans currently for in-grid and general use of this, at this time, or possibly other communication systems that might ease coders' work?
Andrew Linden: You're welcome.
Andrew Linden: A long time ago I spoke with Mark Linden about the implementation of XMLRPC outbound
Andrew Linden: and he made it sound like the issue was mostly just time-to-implement it correctly
Andrew Linden: but from what I understand now, the main issue is that we're worried that SL could be used as a giant DOS grid
Andrew Linden: if we don't implement the correct throttling system, so I think the work is pending that design.
AnneDroid Lily: would an authentication system reduce those concerns?
AnneDroid Lily: and it is being worked on currently, or is it a back-burner item atm?
Andrew Linden: Maybe...
Andrew Linden: We would know who was sending outbound XMLRPC traffic
Andrew Linden: that is the easy part I would suspect
Andrew Linden: but we would need a global throttle
AnneDroid Lily nods.
Andrew Linden: it couldn't just be throttlable at the simulator
Jeffrey Gomez: And how scalable would you expect outbound to be versus current inbound traffic?
Andrew Linden: because someone could put a script in every sim that sends a little bit of traffic
Ice Brodie: and you'd have a nice 900 machine DDOS x.X
Jeffrey Gomez: If anyone has a notecard describing the ground rules for this meeting, if any, I'd appreciate it since I just got here.
Andrew Linden: I wouldn't be very involved in that design of that system
Iron Perth: IM me jeffrey
Andrew Linden: so I can only guess
Andrew Linden: I can guess in time-to-implement... probably a month for one developer
AnneDroid Lily: How about sending a handshake to the target webserver first... And only if the server reply properly (means it was designed to work with SL's RPC) make it work?
Andrew Linden: depending on how well we do cleaning up our internal messaging system, which is happening now
Andrew Linden: and will be going on over the next month or more by one of the developer teams.
Iron Perth: Can we move on, Andrew?
Andrew Linden: yes, lets move on
AnneDroid Lily: ok :)
Iron Perth: :)
Andrew Linden: We can talk more about that if we have time AnneDroid.
Alondria LeFay: Actually, I think I'll extend that line of questioning with a follow up suggestion:
Alondria LeFay: What possibility is there for LL to host shell/MySQL accounts on their local LAN thus to improve latency and throughput and likewise solve the current objection of outgoing RPC (and to remove script load from the sims)?
Andrew Linden: That is an interesting question Alondria, because I had the same idea about a year ago.
Andrew Linden: I bounced it off of one of the other engineers (not a mysql guru, if I recall)
Andrew Linden: and got a "that would be neat" response, but not the enthusiasm I was hoping for
Andrew Linden: I think that would be really cool.
Ice Brodie: (it'd be a nice thing to use the class 3's and older, and get more value from the hardware)
Andrew Linden: Basically give each resident a mini MySQL database
Andrew Linden: that they could do whatever they wanted with.
Ice Brodie: llSQL, to take a nickname from my data server query system.
Andrew Linden: I suspect that Ian Linden would groan at such an idea... he would be someone who could think of many reasons why it might be a bad idea
Andrew Linden: He'd probably worry about unintentional locks caused by bad SQL queries
_____________________
http://ironperth.com - Games for SecondLife and more.
Iron Perth
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 802
09-18-2005 17:23
Andrew Linden: made by inexperienced SQL programmers
Jeffrey Gomez: (Like me)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You could simply have people rent server space at the same co-location facility ;)
Andrew Linden: it is pretty easy to write a bad query that can drag an entier database machine to its knees.
Andrew Linden: yes, perhaps a good way would be to have such servers totally separate
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Alondria LeFay: I would also me interested in just a general shell to host rpc recieving scripts... which would resolve the DoS issue of outbound rpc.
Andrew Linden: one problem that comes to mind is database managment
Andrew Linden: does anybody know of a remote db hosting service that gives you lots of control over your db?
Andrew Linden: What happens if you need to roll back to a backup?
Pendari Lorentz: depends on the DB :-p
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Huns Valen: dreamhost is alright.
Andrew Linden: How do you kill a runaway query locking it up?
Jeffrey Gomez: NearlyFreeSpeech (my web provider) offers virtual Apache DB and virtual root for dirt cheap.
Huns Valen: they are being slow about ACID-compliant tables in mysql, but other than that they do ok.
Andrew Linden: I'm not very familiar with all of the issues here
Ice Brodie: my partner and I Realside run a server... he'd know a lot of those answers I'm the admin x.X
Iron Perth: vmware / virtual machines would seem more reasonable
Andrew Linden: but I agree that the potential for such a service is really neet.
Andrew Linden: s/neet/neat
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Oz Spade: /nod
Andrew Linden: next
Iron Perth: Eata? Did you have a question
Eata Kitty: One thing that I feel has been neglected for a long time is SL's user interface, some static content MMORPGs like World Of Warcraft have user customisable interfaces which makes SL look very basic in comparison.
Eata Kitty: Has a switch to a user modifiable interface (Perhaps XUL which Mozilla uses) been considered?
Andrew Linden: Yes, in fact it is one of those projects that we want to start working on soon.
Andrew Linden: Actually, a few engineers have already started
Andrew Linden: although we're trying to get 1.7 out the door too.
Andrew Linden: One of the problems with our current UI system
Andrew Linden: is that it is all hardcoded to some degree
Andrew Linden: and is very difficult for even us to change... time consuming
Andrew Linden: So we really want to make it easier on ourselves.
Andrew Linden: And in the process, open up the ability to skin and modify the UI by the residents.
Andrew Linden: What would you like to see in a better UI system?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: HTML on floating windows....
Eata Kitty: Folding the appearance system into a client side 3D preview
Andrew Linden: Well, the HTML browser is in the works. What else?
Jeffrey Gomez: Templating. :)
Iron Perth: chrome configuration ala mozilla!
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Alondria LeFay: Input boxes similar to llDialog, but direct communication to a script.
Strife Onizuka: (i would like to see tighter intergration and a scriptable interface so inworld scripts can securely effect changes and communicate to the user)
Alexander Yeats: sliders, radio buttons, widgets man, widgets.
Andrew Linden: Wow, detachable UI elements that run in a separate window?
Oz Spade: LSL controlled GUI, both skinning and element making/deleting/replacing.
Ice Brodie: ability to get more data between inworld scripts and the client, I have a prop for LSL landmarks.
Eata Kitty: If the UI was ingame as editable as the Opera internet browsers, EG moving, adding buttons, changing behaviours...
Iron Perth: heh heh heh
Iron Perth: dangerous question, andrew
Andrew Linden: Well, all of that won't come at once.
Pendari Lorentz: lol
Eata Kitty: Setting your own shortcuts etc
Andrew Linden: The plan is to make the UI more data driven
Andrew Linden: so it loads some config files (XML) and builds the UI based on what they say.
Andrew Linden: If it was totally data driven, then much of what you want could be done.
Andrew Linden: But not all... like detachable windows would be extra stuff, and would have to come later.
Andrew Linden: Lets move on.
Iron Perth: ok, I think April and osprey are forgoing
Iron Perth: So Gwyneth?
Iron Perth: Or jeffrey, if gwyneth is gone
Pendari Lorentz: she is there
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I was interested in knowing a bit about your timeline for the future releases... will there be a 1.8, when will we have 2.0
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm up here, lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And what major features will be on either.
Andrew Linden: I don't know what the timelines would be.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok :)
Eata Kitty: A roadmap should really be published on the website...
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Eata
Andrew Linden: I mentioned before that we have a new development system we are going to try
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I'm sorry - I missed that bit :(
Pendari Lorentz: I'm going to give Cris a nuggie for that post :-p
Andrew Linden: which will hopefully allow us to release more features sooner...
Andrew Linden: when they are ready
Andrew Linden: such that no feature has to wait for another indepenedent project that is not ready
Andrew Linden: So 1.8 may come sooner, it that works out
Andrew Linden: As to 2.0...
Iron Perth: well what about warning people what's coming down the pipe? is that a not enough resources thing or a competitive tactic?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps I can ask it in a different way. What earth-shattering features are you planning for the future, beyond those we know? (Havok, new renderer...)
Andrew Linden: we haven't even decided what will be called 2.0
Iron Perth: ie: are you not tipping your hand or do just not have people to tell us what the hand is
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-D
Andrew Linden: People have asked for a roadmap
Andrew Linden: in the forums, I think I read a thread asking for one.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Pendari Lorentz: hehe
Andrew Linden: it turns out, we don't have much of a roadmap internally... at least not one set in stone
Andrew Linden: we have a lot of projects we want to get done
Iron Perth: heheh
Andrew Linden: and we try to prioritize them with high resolution
Ice Brodie: might help to list the more cool projects, and note that they're all on a "when done" status :P
Eata Kitty: I guess it doesnt have to be a literal roadmap, but something explaining new stuff with how it works would be good
Andrew Linden: So we honestly don't sit down and design a big list that we're going to stick to for a year or more.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Eata.
Iron Perth: can we get jeffrey before andrew runs out of time? i'd like to hear his questions..
Andrew Linden: But to get to Gwyneth's question...
Andrew Linden: Big new features... hmmm...
Pendari Lorentz: yeah.. the "gamers" of the SL population have certainly gotten used to fun lists of what is coming.. they *never* hurt =)
Andrew Linden: Havok-2, MONO scripting, data-driven UI
Andrew Linden: then...
Jeffrey Gomez: Don't get me started, Pen. :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, but these are old, Andrew - we've known about them since November 2004 ;)
Andrew Linden: Renderer-2,
Eata Kitty: Is SpeedTree part of renderer 2?
Ice Brodie: or Havok 2.... which is probobly becoming a thorn in poor Andrew's side.
Andrew Linden: yeah, I'm trying to help myself think of them
AnneDroid Lily gave you questions not asked.
Andrew Linden: You know... I haven't thought too hard about waaaay distant work, I've got so much to do now
Andrew Linden: and to tell the truth, it really is easier to think up cool stuff that needs to get done
Andrew Linden: than it is to implement it
Jeffrey Gomez: Indeed.
Andrew Linden: so I just don't dwell too much on the far distant stuff
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Awww I can understand that. Sorry for asking, really. It's just that some of us also like to get eager in antecipation :)
Andrew Linden: however, I think that once those big changes that you already know about are in
Andrew Linden: the next big things will be much more clear
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Andrew Linden: next
Huns Valen: Jeffrey?
Jeffrey Gomez: Just making sure.
Jeffrey Gomez: Really I have one main question that splits into two smaller ones.
Iron Perth: yup, jeffrey?
Pendari Lorentz: I sat on the wrong chair :-p
Pendari Lorentz: *wink*
Jeffrey Gomez: The main question being: Are there any plans in place to get this stuff to where it's truly resident-driven?
Andrew Linden: "this stuff"?
Pendari Lorentz: no i didn't.. any chair with Anne is my favorite.. I was teasing =)
Jeffrey Gomez: Which breaks into: Are there any plans to license/open parts of the software? And when will we be getting a major API?
Andrew Linden: You mean all of SL? You mean, like totally open source?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Jeffrey Gomez: No no no.
Jeffrey Gomez: See above.
Ice Brodie: I think he means APIs, plugins.
Andrew Linden: Ok
Andrew Linden: Yes there are plans, I think, for what you are asking for.
Jeffrey Gomez: My main concern is scalability - I think the Lindens are taking on WAY too much and it's affecting other projects.
Andrew Linden: The MONO script engine will allow residents to write their own scripting language, eventually
Andrew Linden: right now there is LSL
Jeffrey Gomez: For example, I've been waiting a month to get my Game Dev Land now, likely because newer stuff is being pushed out the door.
Iron Perth: heh heh
Andrew Linden: but with MONO bytecode it will be possible for somone to write llPython -- as long as it compiles to the same bytecode
Iron Perth: hands jeffrey soapbox
Andrew Linden: so the bytecode will be a sort of API.
Jeffrey Gomez: Mmmm... Python.
Andrew Linden: As to the client side of an API
Strife Onizuka: what parts of mono are being implemented?
Jeffrey Gomez: That's not really my concern per se. It's more... yeah.
Andrew Linden: yes, utltimately we want to make it more of an API
Strife Onizuka: i presume floating point and kernal?
Andrew Linden: the data-driven UI system will be a big step in that direction
Jeffrey Gomez: A lot of us get annoyed when Philip refers to there *being* an API in that respect, because we *really* just want it. Now. :)
Andrew Linden: because we will have to define an API for the data to talk to
Andrew Linden: Ultimately, I believe the SL client-server communication protocol will be much more API like
Andrew Linden: and opened up so anyone can write their own metaverse browser.
Andrew Linden: Eventually... I dont' know what the timeline would be, but it is a ways off.
Andrew Linden: If LL doesn't do it for SL then someone else will for whatever they have.
Andrew Linden: So it makes sense that we would do it.
Jeffrey Gomez: More to the point, I'm concerned about how this will make the shift to a more accessible environment. By this I mean the ability to host sims on end-user (or webhosting) hardware in the long term as well.
Andrew Linden: I think Philip shares this opinion, and I know some of the LL developers do too.
Andrew Linden: As to hosting simulator engines on private hardware
Jeffrey Gomez: I recall talks on "trusted" protocols.
Andrew Linden: I think that will happen, but it is one of those things that is years away
Andrew Linden: all of this other stuff has to happen first
Andrew Linden: and most people don't have enough outgoing bandwidth to support their own sim today anyway
Jeffrey Gomez: Agreed.
Andrew Linden: but you can be sure that the bandwidth capabilities will happen
Jeffrey Gomez: The major concern is this - excuse me if it's a little overly dramatic.
Andrew Linden: yes, trusted protocols will be needed
Andrew Linden: but sane, easy to change protocols before that ;-)
Jeffrey Gomez: If LL were hit by a major earthquake tomorrow, or just the server house, we're SOL. Whereas the internet has no finite hub.
Pendari Lorentz: *gasp*
Andrew Linden: yes, that is true
Jeffrey Gomez: So it's mostly a concern of central nature and scalability.
Alexander Yeats: god forbid, and not just for this game, for the ppl
Iron Perth: yeah
Iron Perth: you'd think SL wouldn't be a priority at that point
Jeffrey Gomez: It is never truly "open" in that sense if it's centralized.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That reminds me of a 2nd question I had - Cory once mentioned "multiple grids".
Jeffrey Gomez: Iron: This is true.
Pendari Lorentz: really Iron?
Jeffrey Gomez: But it's a point to address. :)
Andrew Linden: yes, we do have plans to decentralize SL
Pendari Lorentz: in times of tragedy.. do we not first turn to our friends?
Huns Valen: could I ask a question? it is not long
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok :)
Andrew Linden: we only have so much room in our colocation facility
Andrew Linden: and there aren't many colos bigger thatn the one we're in.
_____________________
http://ironperth.com - Games for SecondLife and more.
Iron Perth
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 802
09-18-2005 17:25
Andrew Linden: Yes, go ahead Huns
Eata Kitty: They should have hard offsite backups for this
Huns Valen: it's about XML-RPC... are we ever going to get beyond "250 chars and an int" and have something like the trees we can create, query, send and receive in other languages?
Jeffrey Gomez: Rock on, Huns.
Ice Brodie: even just XML-ing a strided list'd be nice o.o
Huns Valen: it's just kind of limiting... XML-RPC is designed to be really flexible, but we get two fixed fields.
Andrew Linden: I don't know what our current plans are for XMLRPC right now.
Sharpy Stonecutter is online
Andrew Linden: I know we want to make it bidirectional.
Andrew Linden: and we certainly want to make it more flexible and be able to handle larger strings
Andrew Linden: So the short answer is "yes".
Huns Valen: NAMED strings, man. Hashes.
Andrew Linden: But I don't know when.
Andrew Linden: Yes, huge XML trees, that would be great
Lucia Lumiere: Oh jeez that would just be craziness
Andrew Linden: and is certainly the goal.
Jeffrey Gomez: This leads into another good question.
Huns Valen: that would be super thanks
AnneDroid Lily blows a *kiss* to kex
Oz Spade: I have an un-related quick question.
Oz Spade: So any related questions can go first.
Andrew Linden: Ok.
Jeffrey Gomez: Are there any waves being made in terms of internal and external security of Second Life?
Andrew Linden: ? Waves?
Jeffrey Gomez: For example, listeners and internal UUIDs are the bane of a lot of people.
Jeffrey Gomez: As is this "copy by numbers in No Mod objects" thing, and ultimately, the permission system itself.
Ice Brodie: texture, and element replication.
Alexander Yeats: inter object comm....
Alondria LeFay: or intra object even...
Jeffrey Gomez: I've always been one to like permissions enforced by the server in a more "linux" sense, but it's less easy to grok by most people.
Andrew Linden: As to inter-object comm... it seems possible to give people their very own channels
Ice Brodie: there's already link message. for in-object comm.
Jeffrey Gomez: Yes Ice, but that doesn't work for complex systems. =(
Alexander Yeats: link msg is intra object
Alexander Yeats: on a realted note
Alexander Yeats: Any mechanisms comming to allow inter-object comm across sims WIHOUT going out of SL that are more reliable and less limiting than llEmail?
Andrew Linden: certainly this can be done on a single sim... across multiple sims would require extra work
Alondria LeFay: link messages can reveal protocols by having a listening script within the object.
Andrew Linden: I believe I've heard other developers talking about that problem
AnneDroid Lily: a quick yes/no: (the same as one of strife's i think): are there any plans to upgrade the avatars?
Andrew Linden: but I'm not up to date on the plans
Strife Onizuka: There have been almost no changes to the avatar system since i joined SL 18 months ago (user animation are a gimics). There are some bugs that point to failings in quality. We could really use some new skeleton types. We could use new attach points.
Strife Onizuka: Attaching multiple objects to a single point. On the issues of animations it seems inefficiant to only allow 5 priorities (0 to 4) when you use a 32 bit integer (-2147483648 to 2147483647).
Jeffrey Gomez: !
Andrew Linden: from what I've heard, I think that such better inter object communication will happen.
Osprey Therian: Jeff Ventrella must be working on avatar movement...
Alexander Yeats: :P
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hopefully :)
Sharpy Stonecutter: wow whats going on oever here lol
Andrew Linden: Strife, as to avatars and attachments
Andrew Linden: I think the attachment system is currently maxed out in its present design,
Andrew Linden: but I suspect that Richard Linden has a plan for making it better
Strife Onizuka: :P i beg to differ it's not hard to add attachment points, it's all done in the settings files
AnneDroid Lily makes a note to hunt down richard. ;)
Strife Onizuka: only trouble is getting them fit into the pie menus
Andrew Linden: however that isn't going to happen until we work our some scalability/messaging issues on our internal system for handling region border crossing better.
Ice Brodie: Related, what abou the mesh, it's getting to be a year and a half and it does have it's flaws (arm textures are mirrored for one)
Jeffrey Gomez: The concern there, by the way, is a more modular design. At the possible expense of sounding like a broken record, I just want to use my own 3D models. :)
Andrew Linden: As to the avatar shape...
Eata Kitty: Id like to see avs updated, the distortion around the shoulders/back is very annoying
Andrew Linden: I haven't heard of plans for doing major work to the avatar fundamental shape.
Andrew Linden: The main problem there would be backwards compatitiblity
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Strife Onizuka: oh and the SL skeleton isn't symetric, you can see it when you edit the applicable settings file
Oz Spade: I think Catherine Omega had a solution for that, allow people to choose Avatar Old or Avatar New shapes.
Andrew Linden: it will probably only be updated by writing a whole new system overhaul of the avatar
James Miller accepted your inventory offer.
Jeffrey Gomez: Now just hold on a sec. That's not precisely true.
Andrew Linden: Jeffery Ventrella has started working at LL and is interested in making better avatars, and other cool things.
Ice Brodie: or a texture mesh handler to make the arm texture mirrored in the upper body texture dialogs... or unmirrored.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Poser 5 figures, with hair growth groups? ;) (bye bye primmy hair...)
Oz Spade: Yay :)
Oz Spade: Can I ask my question real quick?
Jeffrey Gomez: BVH (rigging) can be converted just fine if you use the same offset values and whatnot.
Oz Spade: (that wasn't it )
Jeffrey Gomez: Though the internal DB version may differ.
Andrew Linden: Sure Oz, I'm confused as to where I am in anwering questions.
Jeffrey Gomez: As for textures, you can emulate any given UV map well enough.
Ice Brodie: it does Jeffrey.
Alexander Yeats: lol
Iron Perth: follow the particle beam
Strife Onizuka: ... if there isn't movement in the area of avatar improvements you will be seeing user created ones
Juniper Edelbrock is online
Jeffrey Gomez: So cross-compatability with newer avatar shapes would be less of a problem as minor niggling crossover details. That's my opinion.
Oz Spade: My question is, the avatar Phantoming bug, alot of us found usefull for flying and other things other than exploitation. Is there talks, or would it be possible to make this into an actual feature? Perhaps a setting in About Land to allow/dissallow it or
Huns Valen: hurrrrr
Oz Spade: some such?
Iron Perth: Maybe we can cutdown the crosstalk a bit to simplify things
Jeffrey Gomez: Sorry. I had to get that out. :)
Andrew Linden: Yes Oz, many people liked that mis-feature.
Pendari Lorentz: back.. so sorry
Andrew Linden: I think that would be a good candidate for giving as an option to land owners and estate owners
Andrew Linden: relating to the discussion about extra features for them earlier.
Ice Brodie: (it'd be a simpler LSL call, rather than hack at that point too, hopefully)
Oz Spade: Yes, the only concern that comes up with land parcel settings is taking away the usefullness the non-feature had for flying through annoying buildings.
Iron Perth: yeah
CrystalShard Foo: Yus.
Andrew Linden: Yes Ice, it would be simpler to do... not just a hack, if we were to open it up.
Jeffrey Gomez: And rezzing telehub catchers.
Ice Brodie: "here is your wall."
Oz Spade: But I can't think of better ways to implement it.
Iron Perth: i have an easy one
Oz Spade: Ok :)
Ice Brodie: yeah, I've been stuck in 3 of them ..<
Andrew Linden: I can't think of better ways either at the moment.
Iron Perth: physics coefficients, laws, math etc
Iron Perth: HOw do we go about getting that info?
Iron Perth: like does f=ma?
Andrew Linden: f=ma, yes however...
Ice Brodie: that's valid, I think, we need time with the LL physicist....
Andrew Linden: the current physics engine is pretty correct for some objects
Seifert Surface just does the experiments
James Miller: Sorry I'm late, the lines at Costco were terrible.
Andrew Linden: but many of you have surely noticed its failures for small ones
Iron Perth: hmmm.. how do we get that kind of information?
Iron Perth: do we just keep bugging you everytime something doesn't match up?
Andrew Linden: bascially, one way to think about it is that small but macroscopic objects in SL
Andrew Linden: are in fact very close to the "quantum domain"
Andrew Linden: where the macroscopic laws start to fail
Iron Perth: oahhh
Ice Brodie: personally I've wondered why the world wast't scaled to compensate, though I don't know what point that'd be.
Ziggy Puff: or maybe disallow physics on objects smaller than a certain size?
Andrew Linden: You could scale it Ice, but then the cost of runing it would just increase
Andrew Linden: that is, you'd have to also scale time, so your effective timestep would be less effective
Seifert Surface: are we talking rl quantum or...?
Ice Brodie: ahh, kay, thank you.
Andrew Linden: you'd have to step the physics engine more often to achieve the same result
Iron Perth: I guess the assumption that we can't get detailed docs on this is accurate then?
Andrew Linden: and the end would be much more CPU time spent on the simulation
Andrew Linden: We're talking a sort of equivalent quantum...
Ice Brodie: (I'm sure our friendly Linden here would rather impliment Havok 2 than document Havok 1)
Andrew Linden: the region where the behavior of physical objects cease to behave like macroscopic rigid bodies with conserverd momentum and energy
AnneDroid Lily has a question that's likely to be longer to ask than to answer.
Alexander Yeats: Are there plans to incorporate fluid dynamics and/or particle dynamics?
Andrew Linden: because of floating point errors, finite timesteps, and errors from the numerical methods used
Pendari Lorentz: what is the lineup for questions right now? just curious =)
Iron Perth: I'd like to give Alexander an opportunity to ask a question, after all he did donate and RSVPed
Jeffrey Gomez: Alex, if you'd like there are links for that subject.
Alexander Yeats: runge-kutta is your friend :)
Andrew Linden: Ok, I have lots more to say on that subject, but lets move ont to Alexander
Alexander Yeats: I asked :) any plans for fluid and or particle dynamics?
Andrew Linden: Oh ok.
Alexander Yeats: considering the current particle system seems billboard based
Andrew Linden: Yes Alexander. We've talked about what would be possible if we were to put some physics simulation into the client.
Andrew Linden: At the moment the client does nearly no simulation at all
Andrew Linden: however particles, volumetric smoke, and some eye-candy stuff could be done client side
Andrew Linden: But that work would have to be post Havok-2 and some other stuff
Andrew Linden: so it is a ways off
Alexander Yeats: right :)
Andrew Linden: oh, fluids could be done client-side
Oz Spade: Would that include improvements to our water? :P
Ice Brodie: (you can tell when a Linden likes a topic, ^.^ this is interesting though)
Andrew Linden: yes, potentially for water effects that did not really matter for real physcics interactions
Andrew Linden: sprays, streams, and small waves
Iron Perth: anyone else with physics related questions?
AnneDroid Lily: me
Strife Onizuka: ^^ could we get negitive hover over water?
AnneDroid Lily: long question (3 lines)...
AnneDroid Lily: Is there any possibility of using "masks" on physical items (particullarly vehicles)? By mask, i mean a wrapper of sorts that could be made by the designer to be low-prim (and presumably convex) - that would define the physical properties of the build..
AnneDroid Lily: while detail prims simply ride along in a phantom mode? It would probably require another checkbox (or even drop-down choice) for prims, but I think it'd allow a great deal of flexibility in building vehicles...
AnneDroid Lily: (up to the 255 prim object limit, minus mask prims), and allow designers the ability to make the physics engine load low (most vehicles i've seen could use a mask made from 8 prims or less).
Jeffrey Gomez: AnneDroid: You mean a collision mesh, basically.
Andrew Linden: AnneDroid, that is work that is a major part of the Havok-2 work.
Ice Brodie: a bounding box.
Andrew Linden: So yes.
Ice Brodie: yay
AnneDroid Lily: ahh.. thanks :)
Seifert Surface: and there's your phantom av back ;)
Pendari Lorentz: hehe
Andrew Linden: It might not be implemented in its full glory when Havok-2 comes out
AnneDroid Lily nods.
Andrew Linden: however, consideration of how to make that possible has been a big part of the design process
Andrew Linden: of how to use Havok-2's API.
Andrew Linden: next
Iron Perth: Can we stay focused on physics?
Alexander Yeats: i know I can lol
Ziggy Puff: i have a havok question, unless someone else has something
Strife Onizuka: negitive hover over water for vehicles
_____________________
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Iron Perth
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 802
09-18-2005 17:27
Oz Spade: I have a rather quick one I think.
Andrew Linden: You werent' asking me were you Iron ;-) ?
Iron Perth: Heh
Andrew Linden: Negative hover...
AnneDroid Lily: I expect many people will grumble about the difference between what's included at first release of havok-2... but let me issue a pre-emptive thanks, because getting this far must have been a lot of work
Jeffrey Gomez: Stuff like that drives me insane.
Andrew Linden: you mean like specifying you want to hover -3 meters below the surface?
Strife Onizuka nods
Ice Brodie: it'd be nice for subs.
AnneDroid Lily: (between what's expected and what's included)
Ice Brodie: or swimming :D
Strife Onizuka: it's a pain to have to run a time to check what the water level is in the sim and adjust the global hover
Andrew Linden: it is possible I think... you can't do it now on vehicles?
Andrew Linden: What? Is hover clamped to be positive?
Strife Onizuka: yes
Andrew Linden: yes, it is possible to do that I think. And I would be the person to do it so you're asking the right guy ;-)
Jeffrey Gomez: To be fair, you could do stuff like that simply by writing vehicle code from scratch... but is a pain.
Jeffrey Gomez: I have a Physics-related question.
Iron Perth: any other physics questions? Im me and I will pass you
Iron Perth: the conch
Iron Perth: so to speak
Andrew Linden: I'll let Iron pass the conch.
Pendari Lorentz: aww man.. mine is not physics.. but I've been so patient
Pendari Lorentz: *cry*
Andrew Linden: Oz had a question too I think.
Iron Perth: jeffrey?
Jeffrey Gomez: Sure Pen. Just a sec. :)
Jeffrey Gomez: Mainly, will we be getting more commands to harness traditional physics?
Andrew Linden: Please elaborate Jeffrey.
Jeffrey Gomez: Things like llFriction, as well as several "Get" functions we currently do not have.
Iron Perth: clap
Jeffrey Gomez: Basically, like implicitly documenting Havok (2)
Jeffrey Gomez: The workarounds drive me insane.
Andrew Linden: Ah. I don't see why that couldn't be done. Access to more interesting physical properties.
Iron Perth: clap clap
Jeffrey Gomez: Using the rubber ball as my example:
Seifert Surface: being able to turn off friction on a prim... just like turning off collision sounds...
Andrew Linden: I'm definitely not going to tackle that until Havok-2 is done.
Jeffrey Gomez: There is no way to set its bounce, or the impulse defined once it strikes a surface.
Alexander Yeats: along those lines how about more events, like VelocityChanged ? heh
Ice Brodie: a fair answer, I think.
Jeffrey Gomez: So I fake it by multiplying its velocity.
Jeffrey Gomez: On a collision.
Andrew Linden: Alexander, velocity changes all the time for most objects.
Andrew Linden: But really the answer is "yest eventually".
Seifert Surface: horizontal velocity doesnt, or shouldnt
Alexander Yeats: well, you could define the event so llSetVelocityChanged(<delta>;)
Iron Perth: We should give pendari, a chance..
Andrew Linden: Havok-2 provides a lot more hooks for getting special event code called at the right places
Jeffrey Gomez: I agree, Iron. My apologies.
Andrew Linden: so more kinds of event callbacks would be possible.
Alexander Yeats: nice
Jeffrey Gomez: Andrew: Thanks.
Pendari Lorentz: honestly.. my question will require a short answer I'm certain.. and I am so facinated by all the wonderful questions and answer already.. I hate to deter.. but
Jeffrey Gomez: So fire it Pen. :)
Pendari Lorentz: Andrew.. are you feeling better after your horrid flu bout?? I hope so!! and, Do you have more working with you on Havok2 Now?? Either way.. Has Phillip given you a raise yet?? *grr*
Jeffrey Gomez: o.0
Iron Perth: donate your stipend to havoc2
Pendari Lorentz: lol Iron
Iron Perth: next fundraiser
Ice Brodie: heh.
Andrew Linden: Flu? I haven't had the flu in a long time. I had a cough in May I think.
Pendari Lorentz: yes.. that was when havok2 seemed to falter Andrew :-(
Alexander Yeats: LOL
Pendari Lorentz: rumor had it you were sick with a bad flue
Ice Brodie: XD Pen did make it Havok 2 related.
Andrew Linden: As I mentioned the plan is for the LL developers to break up into small teams to work on features.
Andrew Linden: I had a very small team for Havok-2 so far (Don Linden, Kelly Linden, and Jonathan Linden helped).
Andrew Linden: But when I get back into it I expect to have a bigger team to help wrap it up.
Oz Spade: Ah, so it wasn't just you working on it! Glad to hear that. :)
Ice Brodie: yay
Alondria LeFay: Will there be a listing perhaps of whom is working on what? (so we bug the correct people)?
Pendari Lorentz: yay!! good to hear!! =) though I would still pres Phillp for a raise =p
Alexander Yeats: and give the proper ppl respect :)
Iron Perth: Can we move on to Seifert? he has a physics question :)
Andrew Linden: yes, in fact Don Linden has been doing a lot of the new code for managing object shapes
Ice Brodie: not bug people unrelated to the particular project.
Jeffrey Gomez: And build our own altars to them to route sacrifices (and stipend) to. :)
Oz Spade: I have one too after Seifert
AnneDroid Lily: hehe
Alondria LeFay: hehe
Seifert Surface: so, the limitations we currently have - prim size limits, building height limits, speed limits... any movement on these with havok 2?
Andrew Linden: which is a big part of how to make the engine fast and resistant to deep-thinks
Pendari Lorentz: thank you Andrew =) I appretiate your hard work! =)
Andrew Linden: My pleasure, working on the physics engine is very fun.
Seifert Surface: can i throw an avatar at faster than 52m/s?
Andrew Linden: I think you can fly faster than that, but you can't throw them faster.
Seifert Surface: (for perfectly legitimate purposes i assure you ;)
Andrew Linden: That is, a jetpack continually pushing will go faster
Ice Brodie: catapolts are fun
Iron Perth: what's the max velocity?
Andrew Linden: but an object in free-fall will be slowed down
Seifert Surface: right - will havok 2 change any of these limitations?
Tab Scott is offline
Andrew Linden: the reason for the max velocity has more to do with the rate at which the physics engine is stepped than anything else
Andrew Linden: we currently step the phys engine at 45 frames a second
Strife Onizuka: keep people from going through walls
Andrew Linden: which means the distance an object travels each step is its speed * 1/45 sec
Andrew Linden: so objects moving fast can tunnel through others
Iron Perth: tunnel?
Andrew Linden: one way to reduce that problem is to step the phys engine faster
Seifert Surface: i heard that havok 2 would solve the quantum tunnelling problem - by detecting against line between prev and current pos?
Andrew Linden: say... 60 frames a second or more
Strife Onizuka: like in quantom mechanics
Andrew Linden: No, Havok-2 does not solve tunneling
Seifert Surface: ah ok
Andrew Linden: Yes, this gets back to the quantum analogy
Andrew Linden: reducing the time between each step of the phys engine will reduce the quantum effects
Iron Perth: right
Iron Perth: finer granularity
Iron Perth: i guess that goes with collision detection, etc
Andrew Linden: There are also some parameters in the phys engine collision system that can be tweked,
Iron Perth: can we have a sim with high fps for certain games?
Seifert Surface: once upon a time I had a dream of doing motion by piecewise parametric equations, rather than incremental steps
Andrew Linden: however there isn't much that can be optimized in our current engine
Andrew Linden: when we move to Havok-2 I'll take the time to search for a more optimum FPS for the phys engine
Andrew Linden: the FPS of the phys engine is a tradeoff between max objects in the sim and allowing some CPU for other stuff like scripts and streaming of information
Alexander Yeats: obj-obj interpenetrations? Like a link of chains? Possible with the implementation of H2 you got going?
Iron Perth: cool be nice to have that sim changeable. I think Jeffrey had a question..
Ice Brodie: joint revamping'd be nice.
Andrew Linden: Chains will work better in Havok-2, but they won't be supported as a special class of objects right off the bat
Oz Spade: I had a question as well.
Iron Perth: ok go ahead oz
Iron Perth: I think we lsot jeffrey
Andrew Linden: we've talked about allowing residents to make ropes of objects
Andrew Linden: which would work for chains a little bit
Jeffrey Gomez: Yeah.
Jeffrey Gomez: You did.
Jeffrey Gomez: ISP hiccuped.
Strife Onizuka: does that mean we might get script functions to manipulate them?
Oz Spade: I was wondering if we'll see more material type features, such as more material types, but also more uses for materials, such as shiny reacting differently for different materials and/or phsysics being different for them, etc.?
Andrew Linden: not first... initially I'll work on using some better "actions" under Havok-2
Jeffrey Gomez: Rehash of Oz's question: Will that be solved by the new texture system we were told is in the works?
Andrew Linden: joints, ropes, vehicles, hover, move-to are actions or constraints
Oz Spade: I just think it's a shame for Material to be used for so little as it is now. :)
Andrew Linden: Havok-2 comes with a bunch of constraints and actions that could be added to SL as features
Ice Brodie: SL, welcome to the big blue room your friends warned you about.
Oz Spade: Ah, Joints, the bane of non-working physics feature.
Iron Perth: i have a very quick question, is it possible to get a list of the havoc APIs that SL is using or is that nda?
Andrew Linden: yes it is a shame Oz, material should be more useful
Iron Perth: yes/no is fine
Jeffrey Gomez: To be fair, virtual joints are totally possible Oz. They just fall onto the hell that is the communication system.
Jeffrey Gomez: Let me whip out the usual example.
quick suggestion: (via Strife Onizuka) could we have a material type that doesn't have a collision sound or particles?
Andrew Linden: havok has a set of API's, it might not be too hard to get your hands on a copy of their documentation
Iron Perth: ahhh cool
Andrew Linden: I don't think it would help you much with SL though.
Jeffrey Gomez: Thunk.
hip: Done.
Iron Perth: but i thought sl was pass through to havoc
Jeffrey Gomez: Excuse the minor spam.
abdomen: Done.
Iron Perth: if havoc is handling all physics, that should give me significant insight
chest: Done.
CrystalShard Foo: You can turn off collision sounds actually.. but not particle,s yea
Andrew Linden: Yes, Strife, such a collision material is possible in theory
lCollar: Done.
lShldr: Done.
lForeArm: Done.
Jeffrey Gomez: I should have moved this away.
Jeffrey Gomez: Sorry.
Seifert Surface: i thought setting collsound to zero killed particles too?
lHand: Done.
rCollar: Done.
Andrew Linden: Iron, the Havok API is general for games
rShldr: Done.
AnneDroid Lily: you ould replace colision particles with an all-alpha texture (at least for objects you own)
rForeArm: Done.
Andrew Linden: it matters very much how you use it, and which parts
rHand: Done.
Jeffrey Gomez: </spam>
Oz Spade: The colision particles are still from Beta it seems too. :P
Andrew Linden: The collision particle generation code is inside the Havok collision callback hook
Strife Onizuka: i sorta remember that if you remove the script you loose the attribute
Iron Perth: IM me if you have a question and you'd like the conch
Andrew Linden: so yes, the material could be queried and particles generated or not depending on the material.
Ziggy Puff: well, ive sent you 3 im's so far, not sure if you got them :)
Andrew Linden: yes, the no-collision sounds is a script-only feature right now
Iron Perth: actually sierfert has a really great question
Andrew Linden: some features started that way and later became UI controls tool
Seifert Surface: any plans for tree like structures for links?
Andrew Linden: s/tool/too
Strife Onizuka drules at the idea of tree based links
Iron Perth: don't crash the sim, jeffrey, heh
Seifert Surface: sorry, that one was me
Jeffrey Gomez: The tenticle isn't mine.
Andrew Linden: Yes Seifert, but definitely post Havok-2
Iron Perth: treebased objects have amazing potential
AnneDroid Lily: hurray for heirarchial links
Iron Perth: anyoone else?
Ziggy Puff: me?
Seifert Surface: good to know theyre coming at some point!
Andrew Linden: Don Linden and I talked about how to keep trees possible in the Havok-2 work
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Iron Perth
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 802
09-18-2005 17:31
Jeffrey Gomez: My question is still in queue, Iron.
Iron Perth: ok siggy
Oz Spade: I vote for Ziggy
Jeffrey Gomez: Go ahead.
Andrew Linden: so we're thinking about it and trying not to write new code that makes it difficult.
Ziggy Puff: if this is public knowledge, someone just point me to a link
Iron Perth: ziggy, sorry.
Ziggy Puff: is there a list of havok 2 features that are known to be coming?
Ziggy Puff: so we dont try to implement things thatll be a lot easier in the near future?
Alexander Yeats: hear hear :)
Andrew Linden: No, no list other than the one in my head
Ziggy Puff: lol
Ice Brodie: reinvention of the wheel is annoying.
Jeffrey Gomez: Ice: Yus.
Strife Onizuka: (each prim has a link list of child prims?
AnneDroid Lily: :o
Ziggy Puff: ok, so leaving out stuff thats still in the works
Andrew Linden: and what we decide once Havok-2 is done, so the list isn't solid anyway
Ziggy Puff: anything thats done and implemented and you can talk about?
Andrew Linden: You mean, like coming out in 1.7?
Ziggy Puff: or any time
Andrew Linden: Or like, written code that will be out someday.
Andrew Linden: Yes, there is a little bit...
Ziggy Puff: im assuming theres some features that youre good to go on, with whatever timeline
Andrew Linden: we have a better vehicle that is partially done
Ziggy Puff: and others that are still being worked on
Andrew Linden: but still needs a little bit or work
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A better vehicle?
Andrew Linden: a land-vehicle with bouncy shocks specifically
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, wow!
Jeffrey Gomez: As a long-time naysayer of the vehicle system, that makes me happy.
Ice Brodie: hee, the HL2 land rover.
Andrew Linden: lessee... what else?
AnneDroid Lily: SL2 land rover? ;)
Andrew Linden: not much else that is written, unless you count the halfway done havok-2 port itself
Andrew Linden: which has almost no new features
Alexander Yeats: lol
Andrew Linden: except a different phys engine
Jeffrey Gomez: Strife is going to love my question.
Jeffrey Gomez: This goes back to Mono.
Ziggy Puff: so that wouldnt directly translate into new api calls that are known today
Andrew Linden: yes ziggy, no new api calls yet
Ziggy Puff: thanks
Jeffrey Gomez: Ready?
Andrew Linden: Ready.
Ziggy Puff: yep, im done
Jeffrey Gomez: Will the conversion to mono allow new, more efficient variable types?
Andrew Linden: yes, I believe so
Jeffrey Gomez: By this I mean real: Booleans, Doubles, and multidimensional arrays.
Strife Onizuka: ^^
Andrew Linden: Oh... maybe not, at least not right off the bat.
Jeffrey Gomez: !
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or even one-dimensional arrays ;)
Andrew Linden: LSL won't change much in the transition.
Jeffrey Gomez: Then rehash to: Are there any plans to implement said (fundamental) var types?
Andrew Linden: But once llPython is written then you would have access to supported variable types, including arrays.
Seifert Surface: but with everything 100 times faster lists might be viable?
Jeffrey Gomez: It drives me INSANE!
Andrew Linden: As long as it compiles to MONO bytecode (the supported subset) it will run.
Jeffrey Gomez: I guess what I'm working at is the ability to be more efficient in the 16k we have without wasting bytes writing long conversion algorithms.
Strife Onizuka: On the issue of Mono we are going to have a big problem if all the scripts are recompiled from source and the states are lost, i would imaging a bytecode converter would be better
Jeffrey Gomez: And the dreaded "list is not a stack" phenomena.
Strife Onizuka: there are manyscripts designed not to be recompiled like DarkLife
Andrew Linden: No, they are working on a converter from existing compiled bytecode to MONO.
Strife Onizuka: ^^ good
AnneDroid Lily: I'd like to ask about the feasability to store semi-permanent data as (possibly invisible) "properties" of a prim, accessable from a script. You can store some info in name and description... but that's quite limited, and visible to others.
AnneDroid Lily: ...or is that something that would be deferred until the implementation of MONO?
Pendari Lorentz: pardon me.. I must poof.. thank you Andrew.. and thank you Iron.. amazing discussion tonight! =)
AnneDroid Lily: bye pen :)
Ice Brodie: related to Anne's, perhpas a asset object that worked like a stroage, using the same systems as LSL itself?
Jeffrey Gomez: AnneDroid: Virtual methods and objects of prims?
Ziggy Puff: or even just shared variables across scripts
Andrew Linden: I think semi-permenant data for a prim... dunno if that will be supported in that form.
Andrew Linden: Better access to notecards maybe... no that wouldn't cut it.
Jeffrey Gomez: It gets back to the whole SQL thing.
Alexander Yeats: altrhough being able to WRITE to notecards would og a long way right now :)
Andrew Linden: I don't know what the future is for that Ziggy.
Ice Brodie: the bytecode storage system for LSL, without actually putting the bytecode in? or alternatively llSQL
Andrew Linden: You guys might try to recruit Babbage Linden for his own roundtable.
Andrew Linden: He would know more than I do about the future of LSL.
Jeffrey Gomez: Dunno. Personally I like objects more than relational database calls, Ice.
Ice Brodie: he'd hate us coders after a few minutes, questions galore XD
Strife Onizuka nods
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, he is usually very patient, Ice :)
Ziggy Puff: well, if mono lets us move away from lsl ause use say C
Alexander Yeats: yeah he would get swarmed lol
Ziggy Puff: does that means an extern or #include will work?
Seifert Surface: another phys question over here...
Ice Brodie: Jeffrey, I think that LSL's mechanism for state stroage could be used.
AnneDroid Lily: alex: wtire to notecard has been given the thumbs-down - i've been toying with concepts to get the same effect without the same problem
Alondria LeFay: Kill the 16k and perminate storage is less of an issue.
Jeffrey Gomez: Ziggy: You're my hero of this meeting.
Iron Perth: I think ice is next in the queue
Ice Brodie: re-hashed into pure storage, no bytecode.
Andrew Linden: Yes, C# would probably be supported sooner than anything else.
Seifert Surface: oh sorry go ice
Alexander Yeats: amen to C# rapid protyping
Ice Brodie: one of the things that was abuzz in the forums a while ago was hardware physics... I know near term is getting Havok 2 out, but long term?
Andrew Linden: Well, we should probably wrap up.
Iron Perth: ok
Andrew Linden: It has been an interesting talk.
Strife Onizuka: how would includes work? would we use the UUID?
Iron Perth: before you all poof please doante to katrina
Trinity Cole is online
Iron Perth: Let me know how much and where you have donated
James Miller: Iron, where do I donate? GIve to you?
Iron Perth: So I can tally for hamlet
Iron Perth: Uhh
Iron Perth: I prefer you donate via some other mechanism or buy the katrina tshirt from slboutique
Link here: (via Gwyneth Llewelyn) http://www.slboutique.com/index.php?&p=buy&itemid=17616
Iron Perth: flipper shapres the password with pathfinder, so it is safe
James Miller: Well, I've given L$2000 to Pathfinder's machine a few days ago.
Oz Spade: Thanks :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don't mention it, Oz :)
James Miller: Does that count?
Seifert Surface: thanks to andrew!
Alexander Yeats: Andrew, awesome talk, glad to have been here.
Andrew Linden: You're welcome.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
James Miller: Oh, hey, Andrew. :)
Iron Perth: yes, thank you very much!
Andrew Linden: Thanks for the opportunity, it was fun.
James Miller: Thanks for coming.
Iron Perth: you stayed way longer then I (or probably anyone) was expecting
Jeffrey Gomez: Thanks, Andrew.
Osprey Therian: Thank you, Andrew.
Oz Spade: Thank you Andrew, we really appreciate it. :D
Ziggy Puff: thanks
James Miller: Will a transcript be made available? I came late.
AnneDroid Lily claps.
Ice Brodie: I'll hit Path's machine, I don't have a login for SLB.
April Firefly: I had a lovely time, all this tech talk is so enjoyable
Oz Spade: Yes James
Iron Perth: I'll post a transcript in the general / scripting tips forums
James Miller: Cool, thanks.
James Miller: I'm sure most of it will go way over my head.
Ice Brodie: Andrew, thank you very much for letting us pick your brain tonight ^.^
Andrew Linden: See all another time.
James Miller: Bye
Jeffrey Gomez: Here's to reading Prok's "Scripterati" blog on the subject.
Oz Spade: See yah
Iron Perth: bye Andrew
Oz Spade: Brb, afk

Formatted and colorized with transcript.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
09-18-2005 18:38
Very interesting talk. Thanks much for posting the transcript Iron. :)
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Frans Charming
You only need one Frans
Join date: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,847
09-18-2005 20:26
Very nice. I feel so much more enlightend.
great work Iron, for making it happen.
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
09-18-2005 20:34
From: Frans Charming
I feel so much more enlightend.

about what? or are you joking? that would make sense.
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Iron Perth
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 802
09-19-2005 02:14
Well, the bit about the quantum analogy, physics FPS, and interpolation resolution makes things much more clear for me.

I can now revisit my Bowling Lane and upcoming basketball game with a lot more insight.
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
09-19-2005 07:04
From: Iron Perth
Well, the bit about the quantum analogy, physics FPS, and interpolation resolution makes things much more clear for me.

I can now revisit my Bowling Lane and upcoming basketball game with a lot more insight.

Well that's good. Is that why you kept steering the confab back to physics. I suppose that's what we all need to start doing. Talk to Lindens about existing features. All we ever get back when we talk about future ones is "great idea," "yeah we've looked at that <insert possible technical problem>," and "it's on the table not on the list on the ceiling not on the board."

Now I understand why we always get that response. What I don't understand is why the Lindens have hidden behind the idea that people are working in solid dev teams on lists of features in priority order based on our input and votes as much as possible. That's simply not true. They just hack at features until they lock a release then graft the branches in until it's ready for release. The new dev routine should work a lot better for them. Understanding what their doing without the marketing facade will definitely be better for us.
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Davan Camus
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 67
Cool
09-19-2005 10:22
Thanks, Iron, for the transcript. That was some great stuff!

As a new SL convert, and longtime software guy... I feel their pain of short-term/long-term tradeoffs, reworking first-architectures and backwards compatibility, API's, branching strategies, &c &c &c.

So, Lindens, if you read this: carry on, keep up the freakin' great work!
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Iron Perth
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 802
09-19-2005 16:38
Snapshot of the discussion
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
09-20-2005 05:55
Thank you so much for making this available. With your permission, I would like to include this material on http://history.secondserver.net
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
09-20-2005 18:41
Great stuff! Thank you for taking the time to post it. It's the kind of information that the General forum was made for.

~Ulrika~
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Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
09-20-2005 19:07
The admitted lack of structure in planning, development, and project management is not a surprise, but it is really quite disappointing.

LL is going to have to tighten up if they want to grow.
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Andrew Linden
Linden staff
Join date: 18 Nov 2002
Posts: 692
09-20-2005 23:26
From: Cienna Samiam
The admitted lack of structure in planning, development, and project management is not a surprise, but it is really quite disappointing.

LL is going to have to tighten up if they want to grow.


To tell the truth, that lack of structure is by design. We have deliberately tried to keep company culture flat and the development process design-light.

By "flat culture" I mean each employee bears most of the responsibility of prioritizing what are the important thing to work on each week, and we are all encouraged to participate in the conception/design/implementation/deployment of features we find important and interesting -- there is almost no middle management. In particular, there is no one whose sole job is to design SL and delegate the jobs to others. Of course some features and tasks get labeled as "high priority" and then a search goes out for the right person to get it done, but there is more overlap and less structure than a typical company of the same size.

By "design-light" I mean we try not spend a lot of time thinking about how we're going to implement some particular thing -- we get something working quickly, then evaluate it and change it as necessary. Smaller steps with more frequent evaluation rather than big ponderous steps. The theory is that despite a lot of pre-ponderance the step would not be in the most ideal direction and the smaller steps will get there faster.

The main advantage besides speed is that most everyone is usually working on something in which they are interested and/or passionate, so they have fun doing it.

The system does have its drawbacks. The first one that comes to mind is that such a development process is resistant to complete reconstruction of its sub parts. They happen, but typically not when they are first recognized as necessary, rather when the need is painfully clear. That this is a drawback is debatable since some might argue that this is a way of prioritizing the high nails -- waiting until the nails are clearly higher than the rest and then nailing them down.

The lack of a road-map is a characteristic of the system. It is no one's job yet to write the long detailed road-map into the distant future. For someone to embark on the responsibility would be counter to the system. Under the current system it could only be done in the form of a list of details that are suggestions and proposals, or as a vague outline of true generalities.

Growth is not our main problem at the moment. With growth comes changes in group dynamics ==> the challenge is to maintiain a flat culture and an agile development process in spite of growth. Will LL remain a fantastic and challenging place to work? Or will it become just another big, better than average, tech company?
Iron Perth
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 802
09-21-2005 01:36
I think this is great, in fact I think it is the ideal way to run a company working on a project with the leading edge nature of SL.

Because let's face it, you can not waterfall SecondLife, it has to be hyper-evolutionary.

Now that we realise this, I think going forward there will be less frustration in general as we understand that we're all apart of that evolutionary process and our lobbying will begin to reflect that.

How will it reflect that? I see a type of lobbying that involves less requests for specific pet features and more attempts at educating one another and the lindens about what's going on in terms of facts and figures regarding our present day SL experiences.

Out of that mix of enlightenment, hopefully the prioritization will become more obvious for everyone involved.
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