Renters' Rights
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Ananda Sandgrain
+0-
Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
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09-06-2005 17:13
All this MJW nonsense has gotten me concerned about the financial and mental stability of some of our biggest landholders. As Linden Lab through their land policies, right or wrong, has handed them control over so many of the other players in this game, I am worried that hundreds could be victimized if one of these landholders takes a dive.
Now, I'm sure many of you would be jumping for joy if these folks could finally be crushed and their sick game of SL Monopoly could be brought to an end. But think of all the renters! What recourse would they have when the financial empire they depend on collapses under the weight of its own greed and paranoia?
So I propose that renters be given some semblance of rights. Most importantly, the right to convert their holdings out from under the landlord and back to Linden Lab ownership, should their landlord kick the bucket.
Secondly, I propose that any group of renters who represent a majority of a sim be given right of first refusal in the case of any sale of the sim that they occupy. It is all too common for a landholder to simply sell off a sim to another party, who then proceeds to wipe out all preceding conditions. Tenants should not have to suffer this sort of injustice.
Don't let the well-deserved comeuppance of the greedy land barons hurt the innocent!
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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09-06-2005 17:20
Some interesting ideas Ananda. It may also be worth looking into the possiblity of intimidation. Do tenants feel comfortable speaking their minds in opposition to their landlords? Do tenants feel indoctrinated in any way? I certainly don't know if anything of the sort is actually happening but these are certainly good issues to consider.
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Ardith Mifflin
Mecha Fiend
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,416
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09-06-2005 17:25
From: Aimee Weber Some interesting ideas Ananda. It may also be worth looking into the possiblity of intimidation. Do tenants feel comfortable speaking their minds in opposition to their landlords? Do tenants feel indoctrinated in any way? I certainly don't know if anything of the sort is actually happening but these are certainly good issues to consider. I rent in Dreamland. After having been called to what was essentially a lynching of someone Anshe suspected to be a griefer (The crimes were constructing a large plywood home, and being under suspicion of being an alt) it's difficult for me to claim that I don't worry when I criticize Anshe. In fact, I worry every time. But I'll be damned if I'm going to remain quiet.
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
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09-06-2005 17:39
While I agree with the spirit of your concern for sublessee "rights", I doubt highly that Linden Lab will enact special provisions for such occurrances as they have declined to involve themselves in what they deem "third-party" transaction as various sims have changed ownership. When such occurrs, Linden Lab will find itself in a position of no revenue from the sublessor and many disgruntled players. If the renters had wanted to be "landed" they likely would have done so already. That the the renters have accepted a lease which has no force in LL parlance, is truly a sad case of caveat emptor. Perhaps, putting on a tinfoil hat for the moment, LL is expecting that breaking up the land cartels will cause much needed conversions from basic to monthly accounts. If so, I fear LL will be as almost as sorely disappointed as the sublessees. But, on the other hand they cannot break up the cartels because such would interfere with their "play SL, make money" marketing pitch. That doesn't mean that one of the large stakeholders won't decide that they are no longer interested, not profitable enough, have a bad hair day, etc. and wind up screwing their renters. My, what a tangled web that makes. Given absent or inscrutable royal pronouncements, who knows? To quote a forum luminary "$$$$  ".
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Anshe Chung
Business Girl
Join date: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 1,615
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09-06-2005 18:04
From: Ardith Mifflin I rent in Dreamland. After having been called to what was essentially a lynching of someone Anshe suspected to be a griefer (The crimes were constructing a large plywood home, and being under suspicion of being an alt) it's difficult for me to claim that I don't worry when I criticize Anshe. In fact, I worry every time. But I'll be damned if I'm going to remain quiet. After 6 months and more than 300 people buying or renting land in Dreamland I can only remember two situation in which a rental contract (as opposed to an ownership contract) was terminated and refund issued. One was about 2 months ago in Midgard and probably what you refer to. The person in question rented one island in that sim and one day later several residents complained to me for being griefed and shot by this resident. I issued an open call to other Dreamland residents to join on site and help me in properly judging the situation. I contacted the griefer and he tried to lie to me. He told me some story of his bad brother using his account which, by his own contradictions, was easily falsified. The account was very new and could have been an alt. His building grossly violated zoning rules, which however was no deciding factor. I polled several residents on their opinions. Since his rental was just one day old, I decided to refund him and terminate the rental agreement. Dreamland is about one pleasant and peaceful environment. Nobody can force us to accept people in our neighbourhood who start griefing existing residents before even settling down.
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Ananda Sandgrain
+0-
Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
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09-06-2005 18:05
That first post is showing definite signs of an overload of forum provocation and of nicotine withdrawal. Nonetheless, I am really concerned about this. Why did Linden Lab continue a policy for so long which discouraged small-time land ownership? Do they have any plans on the way to rectify the situation?
I've been looking into the concept of natural capitalism lately, and while I can't claim to know much about it yet, it is clear to me now how thoroughly the tier discounts pervert the natural growth of our economy and allow these landlording situations to develop.
I hope Linden Lab does intend to correct this grievous imbalance at some point.
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Jauani Wu
pancake rabbit
Join date: 7 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,835
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09-06-2005 18:23
ananda, i don't understand what is the basis of your analysis. how is a renter in a virtual world jeapordized? they rent land and paya monthly fee of a couple of bucks. the landlord is making a profit over the long term. if a landlord kicks the bucket, his/her family is out the 50000 USD worth of equity a landlord might possibly have in sl. the tenant is out maybe half a months rent of 10 bucks.
a player choosing to own land on the grid, say 8k m2, is paying out something in the range of 250 USD on top of the monthly 40$ cost. if this land was siezed, as has been allegedly done in the past (hank ramos vs gigas) the player would be out a lot more than had they been renting.
so really, the rental system allows endusers to offset risk to landlords and allows LL to offset community and zoning management onto the landlord. what does the landlord get in exchange for this hassle? L$=USD. so all is well in the gridverses from where i stand.
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Lisse Livingston
Mentor/Instructor/Greeter
Join date: 16 May 2004
Posts: 1,130
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09-06-2005 18:49
My only concern would be - how would LL determine who the tenants are if a landlord goes under? Just by a tally of the object owners on the land? All the members in a relevent group? Both of these are likely to be out of date and contain resident names who had ceased renting if (as is likely) the landlord had not been doing regular maintenance prior to disappearing. Would they perhaps go through the landlord's accounts, seeing which residents had paid them amounts exactly equal to the advertised rental rates? Another less-than-accurate response. I'd hate to see someone who stopped paying rent and moved out, but left some objects behind, be given the same rights as a tenant who was paid up right till the end. And to ensure that doesn't happen seems like a labor-intensive job for LL. When I was a landlord, I kept rent records on my web site (password-protected for each resident). I'd like to see a complete "here's how you rent land" web-based system set up on the SL web site that allowed for tracking rent payments separate from other payments. With an addition to the land tools that allowed the owner to "Set to Rented" and then there'd be a "Pay my Rent" option in the tools accessible to the designated tenant. Oh, I'm digressing, sorry.... 
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Waves Lightcloud
SexBall Safety Designer
Join date: 22 May 2004
Posts: 193
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In a Perfect World. . .
09-06-2005 19:10
No one is completely stable and anything does and will happen. Waves and I have been renting some houses on some land. We love our renters and the friends we have made. However, our lives has been turned upside down because of the hurricane. Im not sure when he will be back; therefore, we will scale back and fortunately I am here to handle this part.
But it does make one stop and think. A natural disaster such as this, that can totally wipe a person out for months of for life could put some that are surviving on this game at a disadvantage. Believe me the last thing on their mind will be their land holdings or their renters in a internet game, platform, metaverse, or whatever this is called.
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Tang Lightcloud
Sweet & Juicy
Join date: 22 May 2004
Posts: 377
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Anything Can Happen
09-06-2005 19:11
No one is completely stable and anything does and will happen. Waves and I have been renting some houses on some land. We love our renters and the friends we have made. However, our lives has been turned upside down because of the hurricane. Im not sure when he will be back; therefore, we will scale back and fortunately I am here to handle this part.
But it does make one stop and think. A natural disaster such as this, that can totally wipe a person out for months of for life could put some that are surviving on this game at a disadvantage. Believe me the last thing on their mind will be their land holdings or their renters in a internet game, platform, metaverse, or whatever this is called.
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Anshe Chung
Business Girl
Join date: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 1,615
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09-06-2005 19:38
I advocate an independent consumer rights organization that keeps records and publish lists of rental businesses that have prooven stable in the long run.
Of course the trick question here is: what is "independent"?
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Margaret Mfume
I.C.
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 2,492
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09-06-2005 20:26
A number of main grid land owners complained of their surroundings being spoiled by clubs, malls, and what they considered to be unattractive builds. A call was made for some sort of LL intervention, zoning. The LL stated preference was for such conditions to be developed and provided by the residents themselves. Anshe did just that with Dreamland and others followed suit. Land barons provide a service that LL does not want to staff up for. Why it is considered any more greedy than a content baron charging for their services escapes me. I'd rather see LL staff focused on improving the product and not be landlords personally. My guess is that the current system provides the community a service which it wants at a lower cost. I'd expect that land ownership costs would have to increase in order to cover the additional salaries and benefits of increased headcount if LL took it the responsibility on.
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Lynn Lippmann
Toe Jammer
Join date: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 793
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09-06-2005 21:02
Way back when... Philip himself stated that he would like to see "licensed" land resellers (meaning licensed by SL and the community) that would handle all the sales of land and rentals. There was a lot of discussions about how it would be handled; but the idea died soon afterwards, so there are no "inspected and approved by SL" land-landlords.
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Ananda Sandgrain
+0-
Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
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09-07-2005 08:12
From: Lisse Livingston My only concern would be - how would LL determine who the tenants are if a landlord goes under? Just by a tally of the object owners on the land? All the members in a relevent group? Both of these are likely to be out of date and contain resident names who had ceased renting if (as is likely) the landlord had not been doing regular maintenance prior to disappearing. Would they perhaps go through the landlord's accounts, seeing which residents had paid them amounts exactly equal to the advertised rental rates? Another less-than-accurate response. I'd hate to see someone who stopped paying rent and moved out, but left some objects behind, be given the same rights as a tenant who was paid up right till the end. And to ensure that doesn't happen seems like a labor-intensive job for LL. When I was a landlord, I kept rent records on my web site (password-protected for each resident). I'd like to see a complete "here's how you rent land" web-based system set up on the SL web site that allowed for tracking rent payments separate from other payments. With an addition to the land tools that allowed the owner to "Set to Rented" and then there'd be a "Pay my Rent" option in the tools accessible to the designated tenant. Oh, I'm digressing, sorry....  This is one of the reasons I bring this up. Linden Lab has simultaneously decided to encourage large landlords over small landowners, while not providing any means by which those landlords can be held accountable. It is totally up to the landlords to make the case. And if they disappear, no one who rented from them has any way to keep going either.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-07-2005 08:38
Well . . . if you are just renting and they disappear, all you have lost is the remainder of that week's rent (or however much you have paid up for). In Azure Islands, owned by Nexus Nash (and maybe Adam Zaius; I'm not sure who actually owns it), where I live, you "buy" your land from them, then pay "tier" each week to them. I can "sell" my land to anyone else at any time, for any price I choose. As a basic member, I got my "own" land this way when they were still in Meins. Now, in Andromeda, we also have more privileges - such as streaming video, banning people, terraforming - because it is a private island. To start with these guys, I had to "buy" the land - I think it was around 8k or something. I knew perfectly well that they could go under and I would lose my 8k entirely, and I was just a basic member (who never never bought money)! But that didn't bother me; I had a lot of faith in these guys from the get-go, for some reason. (I had no faith in the ability to "sell" my land to anyone else then, though - though I do have increased faith in that today.) Same thing exists today. They could go under, and I would not only lose what remains of my week's "tier," but also my initial investment. So this business about some kind of insurance against this is an interesting concept. But - I'm not sure why - I live in an even riskier arrangement than pure renting, and it just doesn't bother me at all. I guess, if they should go under, I would just be grateful for all the pleasure and benefits I've enjoyed while living on the land they offered. And I guess I have always tended to view it more as a partnership between me and Nexus and Adam - one where I'm willing to risk my investment, the same as they do. (And they aren't going to go under, imo, and if they ever did, they would probably make it fair to everybody, even if they had to go buy money on GOM to repay everybody's investment - such is my estimation of these guys.) coco
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Angel Coral
Otherworldly
Join date: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 224
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Think then act...
09-07-2005 08:42
I believe the warning Caveat Emptor should apply to those who wish to lease in the same manner it should apply to those that purchase land, regardless of the quantity of land leased or purchased. Knowing that anything can change within SL from Linden rules to Resident actions at any time, one should not assume they have the right to be protected. No one can predict what might be built beside someone's purchased lot any more than one can predict how long a "Landlord" may stay in game. It's a crap shoot to some extent.
Knowing that literally nothing is guaranteed, I don't understand why some Residents persist in trying to create guarantees when it's simply not feasible in many situations. If we try to create rules for every eventuality and require Linden Labs to enforce them, they'll never have time to improve SL's platform. Either that or they'll have to hire people just to be watchdogs, thereby pricing some Residents out of SL altogether.
Many seem to want protection these days. Most everything I read on the forums lately is someone expecting protection or rights within SL. We all signed up to SL with the knowledge of what Linden Labs was providing us with and what rules they would enforce. If people choose to act in a manner in which their actions are not protected by LL, then why believe Linden Labs should then change or add rules to protect them? The platform is what it is - enjoy it how we may. I don't think anyone regardless of "stake" should expect LL to protect their personal interests.
Just my two $L.
angel
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PetGirl Bergman
Fellow Creature:-)
Join date: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,414
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09-07-2005 08:45
I live in Dreamland - I do that because here are no malls, no clubs and few ones with weapons..(they looks as they got wrong tp) plus no huge houses that you crash into..most are ok.. or 99 of 100%. And the diff landscapes are mostly great done.. i feel at home..
Why I got my first land in Dreamland? - here I dident need to seek in endless ”find”-... for a land.. after a 1/2 day search I found my place that I love.. and I IM-ed directly to Anshe and got a nice warm contact (Now some out in cyber will ad a note to his book that I am bought by...must be an ”I do that myself..” ).. the affair was done with my fathers PayPal.. al OK in a sec.. no problem.. and still no problem... the few times I want to ”talk” to my landlady I send an IM or a mail and get an answer same day often some hours after or very often directly..
Can it be better??? - easier?
My X and I had same experience with a man called Hiro.. and his own sim,s.. but there it are stores.. ok I have can have wrong about that but we had a store behind us at the part we rented for a while...
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-07-2005 09:07
You cant die of exposure in Second Life
Being Homeless is meaningless since you Sleep , Eat and Drink in your first life anyhow.
I see no reason at all for adding any red tape or rules. Dont pay more than a week or month in advance - minimize any risk, if you feel that the situation is shaky.
Any Landlord who sudenly evicts people without refunds is going to go out of business eventually froim Bad word of mouth advertizing anyway.
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