SL Superior Court now in session
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Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
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09-23-2005 12:45
From SL Herald From: someone We were hoping to see experiments like this. Two law school students, Judge Mason and Judge Churchill (Churchill is the Herald alumnus who wrote about the ESRB under the pseudonym “J"  , have opened a court in second life. The idea is that residents may take disputes to the court to be settled according to The SL Community Standards, Ralph Koster’s “ Declaration of the Rights of Avatars“, and general “real world” principles of law and dispute resolution (e.g. international law, trademark law, international decisions that involve gaming, etc). What we especially like is that residents may also bring suit against Lindens! And vice versa. A press release and FAQ follow, but I’m sure there will be many more questions. Recognizing a need for legal judgment and dispute resolution, the Second Life Superior Court (SLSC) has been created. The SLSC is composed of law students studying the development of legal theory and jurisprudence in cyberspace. The goal of the SLSC is to evolve a body of law that improves the world of Second Life. The SLSC exists not to create its own law, but interpret the Community Standards already set forth in Second Life. (Note: It's Raph Koster, not Ralph. He was "Designer Dragon" back in the original, experimental days of Ultima Online and later was lead designer for Star Wars Galaxies. His Legend MUD website includes his writings on theories of gaming, as well as the aforementioned Declaration of the Rights of Avatars. ) Opinions on this please. I don't see it as any more meaningful than a meeting of the MJW myself (meaning, not much), perhaps less since they're attempting to do little more than establish a means of arbitration that requires the consent of both parties. If one party refuses to participate or abide by the decision, they have NO teeth to enforce anything -- kinda like ANY attempt by the members of Second Life to impose a Bill of Rights, a Constitution, or other instrument of government. No consent of the governed and no law enforcement arm. Thus, futility is born. On the other hand it might make for a good graduate thesis.
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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09-23-2005 12:48
I'm very curious to see their inworld courthouse or office, if they have one. Good courthouses are hard to come by—I recall one being built up in Atoll awhile ago but it's no longer around that I can see. Even something futuristic like from the film Equilibrium to study law in would provide a powerful atmosphere for the studies they're setting forth.  Also of note, and ongoing (trains prolly meet somewhere): Zarf Vantongerloo's notary service. |
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Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
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09-23-2005 13:03
From: Torley Torgeson I'm very curious to see their inworld courthouse or office, if they have one. Good courthouses are hard to come by—I recall one being built up in Atoll awhile ago but it's no longer around that I can see. Haha - typical day in session: "Your honor, may we approach the bench?" <whispering> "Where did you find that awesome texture for the jury box?" |
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Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
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09-23-2005 13:04
From: Cindy Claveau From SL Herald (Note: It's Raph Koster, not Ralph. He was "Designer Dragon" back in the original, experimental days of Ultima Online and later was lead designer for Star Wars Galaxies. His Legend MUD website includes his writings on theories of gaming, as well as the aforementioned Declaration of the Rights of Avatars. ) Opinions on this please. I don't see it as any more meaningful than a meeting of the MJW myself (meaning, not much), perhaps less since they're attempting to do little more than establish a means of arbitration that requires the consent of both parties. If one party refuses to participate or abide by the decision, they have NO teeth to enforce anything -- kinda like ANY attempt by the members of Second Life to impose a Bill of Rights, a Constitution, or other instrument of government. No consent of the governed and no law enforcement arm. Thus, futility is born. On the other hand it might make for a good graduate thesis. Hate to say it, but everything Raph has touched lately has gone to shit, Star Wars Galaxies of particular pointed example. Everyone talks him up, but only in that 'funny intellectual way that we have no intention of pursuing for implementation because let's face it, it won't make us money.' Anyway... his concept of avatar rights might be of interest were it not for his history of utterly ignoring those rights when they conflict with his 'vision' of 'how it ought to be'. Reference the Legend MUD for some pretty good examples of what I mean. (If you weren't there, you'll have to dig a little deep, but there are folks around who can testify.) (yawn) As per utterly usual, the only thing the SL Herald is good for is stirring up dissent and argument. They are a bit late to the 'player rights' tug of war in the forums, but then, they have so many gutters to draw from... 
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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09-23-2005 13:04
Hahaha OMG you crack me up. Sounds like a good setup for a joke. |
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Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
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09-23-2005 13:06
From: Cindy Claveau
Opinions on this please. I don't see it as any more meaningful than a meeting of the MJW myself (meaning, not much), perhaps less since they're attempting to do little more than establish a means of arbitration that requires the consent of both parties. If one party refuses to participate or abide by the decision, they have NO teeth to enforce anything -- kinda like ANY attempt by the members of Second Life to impose a Bill of Rights, a Constitution, or other instrument of government. No consent of the governed and no law enforcement arm. Thus, futility is born.
Interesting, although not entirely new; technically Neualtenburg has had a "supreme court" for quite some time (as the Scientific Council, per our constitution) although it doesn't claim jurisdiction outside N-burg matters and I don't think we've ever actually had a case come before it, at least since the reboot as a private sim. But the idea of some sort of resident-run arbitration for the grid at large is a great one. It won't work to "control" anyone, but it can help two parties negotiate with the aid of a neutral mediator. Between that and the notary, that can handle a lot of agreements between reasonable people. The problem, of course, is the unreasonable ones.
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Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff
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Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
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09-23-2005 13:14
From: Cienna Samiam Hate to say it, but everything Raph has touched lately has gone to shit, Star Wars Galaxies of particular pointed example. Everyone talks him up, but only in that 'funny intellectual way that we have no intention of pursuing for implementation because let's face it, it won't make us money.' Amen, Cienna. I was there in both the original UO and later in SWG, and I saw so many potentially good ideas go from 'theory' to 'crap'. I like Raph as a person, but he reminds me of those nerdy guys I knew who sat around in the dorm til 4 AM blathering on about abstract concepts that never actually work in practice. From: someone (yawn) As per utterly usual, the only thing the SL Herald is good for is stirring up dissent and argument. They are a bit late to the 'player rights' tug of war in the forums, but then, they have so many gutters to draw from... I don't know. The Herald is pretty good as scandal tabloids go. |
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Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
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09-23-2005 16:34
From: Cindy Claveau Amen, Cienna. I was there in both the original UO and later in SWG, and I saw so many potentially good ideas go from 'theory' to 'crap'. I like Raph as a person, but he reminds me of those nerdy guys I knew who sat around in the dorm til 4 AM blathering on about abstract concepts that never actually work in practice. Precisely. From: Cindy Claveau The Herald is pretty good as scandal tabloids go. Hell, they can't even get scandal right, most of their stuff is ill-researched, poorly organized and generally slipshod. I used to call them the 'SL Inquirer', but then I realised... the Inquirer is actually a better read.
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Julian Fate
80's Pop Star
Join date: 19 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,020
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09-23-2005 17:12
From: Cienna Samiam Hate to say it, but everything Raph has touched lately has gone to shit, Star Wars Galaxies of particular pointed example. Everyone talks him up, but only in that 'funny intellectual way that we have no intention of pursuing for implementation because let's face it, it won't make us money.' I'm afraid I agree with this. He's nice as can be, expresses himself well, makes a lot of thought provoking points and his website has many articles of interest to virtual world designers, but he's an idealist to an unhealthy degree. I think most of his ideas would be great if people really were reasonable and good in general. So yeah, I disagree with almost everything he does but his heart's in the right place and I can't say if I won the lottery I wouldn't give him a few million to make his ideas real without worrying about Sony's bottom line. I'm not even so sure SWG is his fault. I was in beta and I remember this sequence over and over: SWG Designers: Here is our design for a groundbreaking, revolutionary virtual world the likes of which no one has seen before. It's daring, challenging, almost frightening in its newness. Community: Yay! We love it! It isn't just Everquest in space!! SWG Designers: Now that we've implemented and tested it, what do you think? Community: We hate it! Make it just like Everquest in space! On topic: What makes this court binding? Will it survive the first suit against a Linden in which the court finds against LL and LL turns around and overturns the court's decision? Interpreting the TOS isn't going to work because we (the community including the interpretors) didn't make it. It's more like saying, "There are flaws in the Ten Commandments," then God shows up and says, "Oh yeah?" The discussion is over at that point. |
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SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
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09-23-2005 17:21
From: someone those nerdy guys I knew who sat around in the dorm til 4 AM blathering on about abstract concepts that never actually work in practice. You mean "intellectuals"?
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Neehai Zapata
Unofficial Parent
Join date: 8 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,970
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09-23-2005 17:26
I'm not sure I understand the value of a court where you cannot enforce judgements.
They should have modeled it after the "People's Court" or "Judge Judy" where both parties make an agreement with LL to obey the judgement of the court for their dispute. That way it can be enforced after the fact.
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Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
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09-23-2005 17:31
God damn, The Intellectual
God damn, I say The Intellectual
I said God damn, God damn The Intellectual man
You know the Intellectual, the Intellectual is a man
With the love of debate in his hand
Oh but the intellectual is a monster
Good God, he's not a natural man
The dealer for an ideal
Lord, will sell you lots of sweet dreams
Ah, but the intellectual will ruin your point of view
Lord, he'll leave your, he'll leave your mind to scream
God damn, The Intellectual
God damn, God damn the Intellectual
I said God damn, God, God damn The Intellectual man
Well, now if I were the president of this land
You know, I'd declare total war on The Intellectual man
I'd cut him if he stands, and I'd shoot him if he'd run
Yes I'd kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun
God damn The Intellectual
Gad damn The Intellectual
I said God damn, God damn The Intellectual man....
(apologies to Steppenwolf)
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
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09-23-2005 17:38
From: Aliasi Stonebender Interesting, although not entirely new; technically Neualtenburg has had a "supreme court" for quite some time (as the Scientific Council, per our constitution) although it doesn't claim jurisdiction outside N-burg matters and I don't think we've ever actually had a case come before it, at least since the reboot as a private sim. Yes, Aliasi. The constitution provides for standard legal hearings and formally defines three methods of dispute resolution: negotiation, mediation, and arbitration. So far it's never been used, as the mention of a hearing before the SC is a great motivator for solving one's own problems. Article III, Section 7 - Alternative Dispute Resolution
SC members will provide alternative dispute resolution (ADR) in the form
of negotiation, mediation, and arbitration to citizens.
In negotiation, participation is voluntary and there is no third
party who either facilitates the resolution process or imposes
a resolution. A member of the SC serves as a witness, recording
the negotiation.
In mediation, participation is voluntary (in that even though a court
may mandate the process itself, the parties are not required to
reach a resolution), and a member of the SC acts as a third-party
mediator, who facilitates the resolution process but does not impose
a resolution on the parties.
In arbitration, participation is ordinarily voluntary, and a member
of the SC acts as a third party who both facilitates the resolution
process and imposes a resolution. ~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
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Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
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09-23-2005 17:41
From: Cindy Claveau ... he reminds me of those nerdy guys I knew who sat around in the dorm til 4 AM blathering on about abstract concepts that never actually work in practice.
God damn, I say The Intellectual
I said God damn, God damn The Intellectual man
You know the Intellectual, the Intellectual is a man
With the love of debate in his hand
Oh but the intellectual is a monster
Good God, he's not a natural man
The dealer for an ideal
Lord, will sell you lots of sweet dreams
Ah, but the intellectual will ruin your point of view
Lord, he'll leave your, he'll leave your mind to scream
God damn, The Intellectual
God damn, God damn the Intellectual
I said God damn, God, God damn The Intellectual man
Well, now if I were the president of this land
You know, I'd declare total war on The Intellectual man
I'd cut him if he stands, and I'd shoot him if he'd run
Yes I'd kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun
God damn The Intellectual
Gad damn The Intellectual
I said God damn, God damn The Intellectual man....
(apologies to Steppenwolf) Where's this anti-intellectual crap coming from, anyway? Virtually everyone who posts on these forums is bright, talented, well-read and aware, creative, and blessed with a twisted POV. In other words - an intellectual. |
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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09-23-2005 17:45
From: Seth Kanahoe
(apologies to Steppenwolf) Don't forget Hoyt Axton...
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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09-23-2005 18:22
From: Cindy Claveau
I don't know. The Herald is pretty good as scandal tabloids go.
I enjoy good drama, but even by the standards of tabloids, the bottomfeeding trash that is the SLH does not even aspire to being a bad tabloid, let alone a good one. That is giving them way too much credit, and I am constantly surprised at how often you reference such a pathetic excuse for "journalism".
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. 
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Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
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09-23-2005 18:28
From: Ulrika Zugzwang ... more bureaucratic blather which Cienna gleefully snipped... Bureaucracy defends the status quo long past the time when the quo has lost its status. SL is what it is because the status quo can bite Linden Lab's collective ass. I say we keep it that way.
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Just remember, they only care about you when you're buying sims.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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09-23-2005 18:32
From: Cienna Samiam Bureaucracy defends the status quo long past the time when the quo has lost its status.
SL is what it is because the status quo can bite Linden Lab's collective ass. I say we keep it that way. You know what I love about your posts, Cienna? 9 times out of 10, I don't understand them, yet I find I agree with them somehow
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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09-23-2005 18:45
I can't wait to get taken to SL Court!
I just wanna see the looks on their faces at the first case of 'Ah did the defendant just tell us to go fuck ourselves?'
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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Julian Fate
80's Pop Star
Join date: 19 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,020
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09-23-2005 18:47
From: Siggy Romulus I can't wait to get taken to SL Court!
I just wanna see the looks on their faces at the first case of 'Ah did the defendant just tell us to go fuck ourselves?' "Move to have that stricken from the record. Move to have the defendant's foot stricken from my ass." |
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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09-23-2005 18:58
hahahahhahaahhaahhaha
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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