Oh tut tut. Naughty Syrian government didn't want to leave territory it had "occupied" and has actually illegally killed one politician on someone elses soil. They definitely deserve international denunciation, and even sanctions, for this single act of murder (extra-territorial non-judicial execution ?).
But has anyone noticed that one of the main denouncers carries out such illegal "executions" of political leaders it regards as its enemies, on other peoples territory? Using helicopters, and missiles fired straight into busy streets, with substantial collateral damage to innocents ? And not always someone suspected of personal acts of violence. Political leaders too. Mere suspicion is enough. You, and often those around you, simply get blown to pieces whilst going about your personal business. Not a hint of "innocent until proven guilty".
Not one such murder. Not ten. But dozens and dozens, quite openly, routinely and regularly and without remorse. And virtually free of determined condemnation.
Is there a double standard here, perhaps ?
Bit like having (but denying) 200 nuclear warheads while tut-tutting at a neighbor who might just possibily feel they might need something themselves to feel less threatened.
The country with no WMD gets international condemnation for mere possibility of thought-crime.
The adjacent country, with almost certainly more nukes than Britain , and missiles aircraft and submarines to deliver them, is allowed to deny they even have any, and to avoid all inspections and international non-proliferation obligations without facing anything more than a smidgeon of slightly nervous comment, and that pretty vigorously suppressed.
Murders and nukes. Two simple examples of one rule for some, another rule for others. Shows the power of media and propaganda.
Whats that ? Ah yes! The wonderful power of language. Of course!
Its the difference between "terrorists" and "not-terrorists", isn't it ? How is that word defined again ?
Is it something like the following ?
Terrorist :
Opposed to, and taking action against, a government friendly to the interests of the west. The actions taken are usually hugely underresourced, and thus forced into "amateur" methods, often against soft targets, which naturally makes it easy to characterise them, and their not-quite-impotent perpetrators, as "criminal".
And please try not to let your own prejudice show by noticing anything special about the country I am partly criticising here. I at least, am blind to such questions. My attitude would be identical if the culprit were Switzerland.
And anyway, I regard the protector as almost more to blame. What little schoolyard bully could resist abusing his position if he has a big brother who keeps feeding him knives and catapults and pocket money, and bashes anyone who resists him, or tries to get a catapult of their own, or even just complains ?
I loathe all hypocrisy, and it has grown into a towering giant which bestrides the world.
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Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
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10-31-2005 11:18
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Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
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11-01-2005 07:59
Yep - I guess that IS the most appropriate reply - silence.
I should have known better than to post this, but it was a little cathartic at the time. Sometimes just watching all the endless self-congratulatory hypocrisy just gets that little bit too much to bear in silence. Ah well, I guess the big powers always have lied and lied, to keep their populations silent and compliant. Nothing new or surprising about it to those who know history - the foolishness was in believing anything had changed. |
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Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
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11-01-2005 09:32
.
_____________________
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Gabe Lippmann
"Phone's ringing, Dude."
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 4,219
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11-01-2005 09:33
the foolishness was in believing anything had changed.  _____________________
go to Nocturnal Threads
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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11-01-2005 09:34
I completely agree, Ellie. We don't only use planes and missiles either. The US tried for years to kill Castro through covert operations. They installed a covert agent in an ice cream parlor Castro frequented and planned to poison him. The plan fell apart because the "special" flavor got frozen to the inside of the freezer and they missed their chance. I'm sure that's just one of many such misadventures. The US is the most hypocritical nation on earth. We do all the same shit we point the finger at others about, while claiming it somehow doesn't count when we do it because we're fighting for freedom, or god is on our side. We detain our own citizens without charges or legal representation. We torture prisoners. We start wars without UN approval and without provocation. We kill innocent civilians by the tens of thousands. We suck.
_____________________
 My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
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Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
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11-01-2005 09:37
I completely agree, Ellie. We don't only use planes and missiles either. The US tried for years to kill Castro through covert operations. They installed a covert agent in an ice cream parlor Castro frequented and planned to poison him. The plan fell apart because the "special" flavor got frozen to the inside of the freezer and they missed their chance. I'm sure that's just one of many such misadventures. The US is the most hypocritical nation on earth. We do all the same shit we point the finger at others about, while claiming it somehow doesn't count when we do it because we're fighting for freedom, or god is on our side. We detain our own citizens without charges or legal representation. We torture prisoners. We start wars without UN approval and without provocation. We kill innocent civilians by the tens of thousands. We suck. USA Sucks! Jews Suck! Murdering Hypocrites! _____________________
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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11-01-2005 09:39
There aren't many nations on Earth that don't suck, if any.
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Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
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11-01-2005 09:56
There aren't many nations on Earth that don't suck, if any. I guess if I knew the standards by which you judged all nations I would be in a better position to agrre or disagree. If you mean to say that "there aren't many nations who live up to my definition of excellence" then I have to ask by what standards are you judging? |
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Mike Westerburg
Who, What, Where?
Join date: 2 May 2004
Posts: 317
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11-01-2005 10:25
It all boils down to:
You kill one, your a murderer. You kill many, your a conquerer. You kill thousands it is considered a statistic... _____________________
"Life throws you a lemon, you make lemonade and then plant the seeds"
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Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
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11-01-2005 11:21
USA Sucks! Jews Suck! Murdering Hypocrites! Many Israeli citizens, of different religions, are as appalled as you and I. And even the Israeli government has an excuse, as it is continually armed and supported in its illegal activities by the militarily strongest nation on earth. Hardly surprising, with such a backer, that they keep on with it. Nor is it the USA which sucks. You need to distinguish a nation, and it's people, from it's government. Admittedly, in a democracy, the people must take heavy responsibility, but remember that half of them (or even more) may be strongly opposed. If you do a training course in therapeutic counseling, as I did, one of the first things you learn is the importance of carefully distinguishing between a person and that person's behaviour. The same goes in international affairs, with the behaviour being that of their government. |
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Dark Korvin
Player in the RL game
Join date: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 769
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11-01-2005 11:36
Oh tut tut. Naughty Syrian government didn't want to leave territory it had "occupied" and has actually illegally killed one politician on someone elses soil. They definitely deserve international denunciation, and even sanctions, for this single act of murder (extra-territorial non-judicial execution ?). But has anyone noticed that one of the main denouncers carries out such illegal "executions" of political leaders it regards as its enemies, on other peoples territory? Using helicopters, and missiles fired straight into busy streets, with substantial collateral damage to innocents ? And not always someone suspected of personal acts of violence. Political leaders too. Mere suspicion is enough. You, and often those around you, simply get blown to pieces whilst going about your personal business. Not a hint of "innocent until proven guilty". Not one such murder. Not ten. But dozens and dozens, quite openly, routinely and regularly and without remorse. And virtually free of determined condemnation. Is there a double standard here, perhaps ? Bit like having (but denying) 200 nuclear warheads while tut-tutting at a neighbor who might just possibily feel they might need something themselves to feel less threatened. The country with no WMD gets international condemnation for mere possibility of thought-crime. The adjacent country, with almost certainly more nukes than Britain , and missiles aircraft and submarines to deliver them, is allowed to deny they even have any, and to avoid all inspections and international non-proliferation obligations without facing anything more than a smidgeon of slightly nervous comment, and that pretty vigorously suppressed. Murders and nukes. Two simple examples of one rule for some, another rule for others. Shows the power of media and propaganda. Whats that ? Ah yes! The wonderful power of language. Of course! Its the difference between "terrorists" and "not-terrorists", isn't it ? How is that word defined again ? Is it something like the following ? Terrorist : Opposed to, and taking action against, a government friendly to the interests of the west. The actions taken are usually hugely underresourced, and thus forced into "amateur" methods, often against soft targets, which naturally makes it easy to characterise them, and their not-quite-impotent perpetrators, as "criminal". And please try not to let your own prejudice show by noticing anything special about the country I am partly criticising here. I at least, am blind to such questions. My attitude would be identical if the culprit were Switzerland. And anyway, I regard the protector as almost more to blame. What little schoolyard bully could resist abusing his position if he has a big brother who keeps feeding him knives and catapults and pocket money, and bashes anyone who resists him, or tries to get a catapult of their own, or even just complains ? I loathe all hypocrisy, and it has grown into a towering giant which bestrides the world. The thing in Lebanon with Syria isn't new. We did send actual troops there in the beginning. We did do many bombings, including naval bombings that in the articles I read had normally around 10% accuracy of actually hitting military targets. Was a big contraversy, because civilians were being killed, farms were being destroyed, and buildings were being destroyed owned by innocent people. Hard to hit the enemy with bombs when they camp among civilian populations though. In reality I think Iraq was only hit, because of the memory everyone had of the gulf war, where fewer people remember the civil war in Lebanon. I think Afghanistan was the only target selected for an actual reason besides popularity, and even that gets questionable as we fail enter Pakistan where the leaders are known to be, and we know good and well that most of the terrorist weren't in Afghanistan to begin with. This is nothing new though. Somalia is a good example. What made Somolia so much more important than all the atrocities happening elsewhere in Africa. The answer is diamond mines. There are alot of people in a few countries in Africa that could use both protection and food, yet Somolia was very important to American business. Americans like to think of their country as being on the perfect moral high ground, but things start to look a little shady if you look at where we do and don't go. Attacks on our soil, communism, and money is what drives us to battle. It is not morality. These things are understandable motivators, but they are not things that make us moral fighters. |
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Aleister DaSilva
insert witty phrase here
Join date: 19 May 2005
Posts: 168
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11-01-2005 11:45
shhhhhhhh........you know this is thought crime and probably punishable under some clause of the Patriot Act. <puts tinfoil hat back on>
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Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
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11-01-2005 11:55
Maybe the reason that the hypocrisy seems harder to bear than before is because of the media, and our vastly enhanced communications.
Before television, and then the internet, things were different. Far fewer people knew anything about what was going on, and even those that did had little chance of even glimpsing how it differed from what they were being told. So perhaps the quantity of hypocritical propaganda required was less. Now it takes much more to keep the masses compliant, and of course we have the means to deliver that "much more" with hugely increased effectiveness into every home. Better communications increase the danger of dissenting views, but at the same time they provide the tools for better suppression of those views. Result - increased stress for those capable of resisting the brainwashing. They are stressed by realising what is actually going on, and stressed again by having to see the hypocritical propaganda being deployed to such effect against their less perceptive fellows. And maybe even stressed a third time by wondering whether just possibly these appalling governments may actually be doing their duty, in the sense that deceitfully murdering other nations citizens may actually be in the best short-term interests of the lowest-common-denominator of their own people. Wondering whether at rock-bottom there is no morality between nations. Just dog-eat-dog, with a veneer of hypocrisy to conceal it. I did only say "wondering".............. |
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Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
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11-01-2005 12:10
shhhhhhhh........you know this is thought crime and probably punishable under some clause of the Patriot Act. <puts tinfoil hat back on> It's getting closer day-by-day. The one essential tool of the police state is the ability to "disappear" people without legal hindrance. This is what generates the fear that enforces silence. They already have it via Guantanomo. Tell me I'm being paranoid please someone. Convince me, can't you ? |
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Memory Harker
Girl Anachronism
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 393
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11-01-2005 12:36
Just dog-eat-dog, with a veneer of hypocrisy to conceal it. That sounds about right, Ellie, sadly enough. Wait, did I say "sadly"? Pfft. It strikes my own life obliquely, for the most part, the same way in which life-harshening, potentially life-threatening nonhuman environmental factors do. Human hypocrisy (is there any other kind?), humans' cruelty to other humans, our long long history of violence and devastation: it can be as disgusting as runny, disease-ridden dogshit on a hot sidewalk; as scary as encountering the rabid Rottweiler that excreted that shit before staggering off, foaming and bearlike, to ravage the flesh of children. And when such things invade one's own life or the lives of one's loved ones, it's all we can do to deal with the operational stresses, much less the emotional ones. But this is what invades everyone's life, eventually, in one way or another, at one level of intensity or another: like weather. Raineth drop and staineth slop, and we all sing Goddam. But when such horrors are at a distance, when they're enough in the realm of the relatively abstract for atttention to be paid to the rest of existence on this spinning ball of rock? There are meadows for running in, chinchillas bouncing in the underbrush, the rust-and-concrete ruins of an abandoned factory begging exploration, friends to talk and dance with, beer to be drunk, chocolate to be licked off a lover's fingers after an afternoon of too much sex ... there are, for fuck's sake, babies to be smiled at and books yet unread on the living room table! "Sadly," did I say? It's all sad, ultimately. Life itself, yes, is sad: I will be the last to deny this. But in order to experience this world of relentless sorrow? We must be alive. And being alive? Participating in all the miracles this momentary taste of being allows? Sweet bleeding Jesus, that's the most happy-making thing in the world!  kk Cue the R.E.M. Memory fades ... |
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Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
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11-01-2005 13:15
That was lovely, Memory, thank you.
I think my problem is that I still haven't quite given up. I don't yet accept that it is all inevitable, and that I am totally helpless to improve the outcome. I see this particular time as balanced on a knife edge. It could fall either way, and even an almost pointless thread right here might make just a couple of voters hesitate and investigate. Enough to influence a couple more...... A feathersbreath could maybe tilt it either way. I'll get over it. I'm already trying to avoid contact with the news media. They say drowning is a delicious experience, once you accept it and take that first huge inbreath of cool water. Once I accept that it is hopeless, I'll find it easier to put it aside in the way you so wisely suggest. Its that tantalising little voice that suggests maybe just possibly something can be done to better the world. I at least had that illusion for a while. That's the problem. I just can't quite give up yet. |
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Memory Harker
Girl Anachronism
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 393
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Dear Ellie:
11-01-2005 13:32
This is an address (cut & paste) which will let you download Annie Dillard's "The Wreck of Time," an article published in Harper's several years ago.
The essay offers the most eloquent sort of consolation (in its bleak way) that I have ever encountered. Along with that, I offer, if only virtually and abstractly, a big hug. I'm so glad you're a part of this world! portal.chaminade-stl.com/Portals/211/The%20Wreck%20of%20Time%5B1%5D.doc |
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Roland Hauptmann
Registered User
Join date: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 323
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11-01-2005 14:36
It all boils down to: You kill one, your a murderer. You kill many, your a conquerer. You kill thousands it is considered a statistic... The way I heard it ended in: Kill them all, and you're a god. |
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Aleister DaSilva
insert witty phrase here
Join date: 19 May 2005
Posts: 168
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11-03-2005 13:22
Yes, Aleister. I guess you are only half-joking. At some point we go over the line, and people begin to be afraid to speak their minds. We may indeed be getting close. I feel it just beginning in myself. Only a little time may be left before it is all too late for us to turn back towards a free society, and to reverse the drift towards a police state and thought crime. It's getting closer day-by-day. The one essential tool of the police state is the ability to "disappear" people without legal hindrance. This is what generates the fear that enforces silence. They already have it via Guantanomo. Tell me I'm being paranoid please someone. Convince me, can't you ? Well today's news reveals that we prolly have secret prisons in eastern Europe.... http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17136204-1702,00.html?from=rss Find out lots more than you really wanna know at tvnewslies.org then tell ME you're being paranoid. |
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Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
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11-04-2005 02:44
No Jack. That's exactly what I am NOT saying. It's the actions of the Israeli and US governments that suck. Many Israeli citizens, of different religions, are as appalled as you and I. And even the Israeli government has an excuse, as it is continually armed and supported in its illegal activities by the militarily strongest nation on earth. Hardly surprising, with such a backer, that they keep on with it. Nor is it the USA which sucks. You need to distinguish a nation, and it's people, from it's government. Admittedly, in a democracy, the people must take heavy responsibility, but remember that half of them (or even more) may be strongly opposed. If you do a training course in therapeutic counseling, as I did, one of the first things you learn is the importance of carefully distinguishing between a person and that person's behaviour. The same goes in international affairs, with the behaviour being that of their government. I was referring to Chip's post above mine. |
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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11-04-2005 03:02
Ellie,
Your thoughts echo mine, exactly.  _____________________
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