Second Life Forums Archive - Why is Open GL so great?

Peggy Paperdoll

A Brat

Join date: 15 Apr 2006

Posts: 4,383

05-23-2007 19:03

I'm what most would call a lower end advanced user of computers. I build my own machines (meaning I eitther buy a "barebones" box and add to it or I buy individual components and put them together to get what I want.......install my OS and go with it). My question is really related only the the graphics card(s) that are available for most any machine. So much talk about ATI vs Invidia and Invidia being superior to ATI because of the Open GL rendering. Whats better about Open GL than any other rendering engine? SL apparently works better because they chose Open GL for their rendering..........why did they do that? Is Open GL so much better? What do the other engines lack that Open GL has that Linden Labs based their whole platform around it? I'm comfused.

Thanks.

Rusty Satyr

Meadow Mythfit

Join date: 19 Feb 2004

Posts: 610

05-23-2007 19:17

It's great because the alternative is limited to MS-Windows platforms.

SecondLife has a lot of mac and linux users who'd be shut out without OpenGL.

_____________________

Cory Linden: "As we’ve talked about, the long term goals for Second Life are to make it a more open platform."

SecondLife: LL made the bottle... we made the whine, er, wine.

Peggy Paperdoll

A Brat

Join date: 15 Apr 2006

Posts: 4,383

05-23-2007 19:38

Okay.............that makes sense.

But does that mean that ATI is catering to Microsoft? And another (sort of related...........in a round about way) question. Why can't Java not be used? I'm a huge NASCAR fan and every Sunday I use my computer to enhance my TV watching of the races. NASCAR.com has a feature called "Trackpass" which lets subscribers have in-car video, in-car audio, real time telemetry, computer generated views from three different angles of any car racing at any track they race on. That's not less than 43 cars with three options (changable at my whim) of views...........audio, video, and animations. NASCAR has way more subscribers than SL has participating members. It's all done in real time (I know when cautions are out 5 secs before the the TV viewers.........they are on a 5 sec delay). It's all Java. Could SL not be run something like that? I'm sure there are three or four times the Trackpass users on Sundays as SL has on it's busiest day.

I'm no network person and my programming is very limited....but I don't know why it can't be done. NASCAR.com is worldwide...........not just US. Maybe Linden Labs with their mindset neglected to even consider it?

Tod69 Talamasca

The Human Tripod ;)

Join date: 20 Sep 2005

Posts: 4,107

05-23-2007 19:46

Rusty's right. OpenGL is cross-platform. DirectX is not.

While I've seen more done in a game with DirectX, from what I've read, OpenGL & DirectX can do the same things. Its just the way stuff is coded thats different. Each has pros & cons.

Peggy Paperdoll

A Brat

Join date: 15 Apr 2006

Posts: 4,383

05-23-2007 20:16

Thanks Todd

Now just for me or someone to figure out how to put an ATI card and an Invidia card in the same computer to automatically switch to the best for the application LOL No IRQ conflicts mind you .

Ahhhh................give it a few months

Thanks guys.....you both answered my question

Osgeld Barmy

Registered User

Join date: 22 Mar 2005

Posts: 3,336

05-23-2007 20:18

open GL is generally faster, its cross platform, its open source

why not use something like java, well without a 3d graphics card interface like DX or GL you use software based rendering which is REALLY SLOW and crappy too, think playstation 1 running at 1fps

yea

so even if they choose to use a interperted language like java, theres a good chance to produce the level of quality they would still use on of the 2

what your seeing on nascar is 2d vector graphics, which is much much simplier for a computer to render (think about asteroids and how little computer power that had, same tech)

Jacques Groshomme

Registered User

Join date: 16 Mar 2005

Posts: 355

05-23-2007 20:44

From: Peggy Paperdoll

Okay.............that makes sense.

But does that mean that ATI is catering to Microsoft? And another (sort of related...........in a round about way) question. Why can't Java not be used? I'm a huge NASCAR fan and every Sunday I use my computer to enhance my TV watching of the races. NASCAR.com has a feature called "Trackpass" which lets subscribers have in-car video, in-car audio, real time telemetry, computer generated views from three different angles of any car racing at any track they race on. That's not less than 43 cars with three options (changable at my whim) of views...........audio, video, and animations. NASCAR has way more subscribers than SL has participating members. It's all done in real time (I know when cautions are out 5 secs before the the TV viewers.........they are on a 5 sec delay). It's all Java. Could SL not be run something like that? I'm sure there are three or four times the Trackpass users on Sundays as SL has on it's busiest day.

I'm no network person and my programming is very limited....but I don't know why it can't be done. NASCAR.com is worldwide...........not just US. Maybe Linden Labs with their mindset neglected to even consider it?

While it's a lot more subscribers, it's alot less work to stream that.

They only have to keep track of 43 objects, all with any of only 4 meshes, in relation to each other. And on these maximum 43 objects is a maximum of 43 textures. Then, create 43 different "camera view" streams to be consumed. The viewer isn't streaming anything back except when telling it to change views. That format allows to be extremely optimized, with

In a single Second Life sim, there can be potentially 15000 objects with continually changing textures and parameters, each with their own scripting subsystem, and up to 60 or 70 avatars such that every single thing needs to be constantly updated on the behavior, location, and appearance of every single other thing. This, multiplied by, what, nearly 5000 sims? This system can't really be optimized except for in a local cache.

It's really apples to oranges, without even comparing and contrasting the Java language compared to C# or C++ or bringing server database backends or operating systems into it.

Tod69 Talamasca

The Human Tripod ;)

Join date: 20 Sep 2005

Posts: 4,107

05-23-2007 23:24

From: Peggy Paperdoll

Thanks Todd

Now just for me or someone to figure out how to put an ATI card and an Invidia card in the same computer to automatically switch to the best for the application LOL No IRQ conflicts mind you .

As to the "Why" of ATI having so many issues, from what I've read about & talked with to others on Tech Forums, ATI uses a slightly different implementation of OpenGL (or did) while NVidia sticks with a standard.

Some reading about the differences:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_and_Direct3D

http://www.toymaker.info/Games/html/directx_q_a.html#DX7

A nice lil' bit at the bottom of the 2nd Link which makes me want Vista to get the "kinks" out before I'd consider it:

What is shader model 4?

Shader model 4 is only supported by DirectX 10 running on Vista, it provides:

A unified shader - no more differences between vertex and pixel shaders
Geometry shaders - ability to create vertices on the GPU
Resource virtualisation - virtual memory support

Basically, it's gonna take a load off the CPU and make your video card do the work.

Rusty Satyr

Meadow Mythfit

Join date: 19 Feb 2004

Posts: 610

05-23-2007 23:44

From: Peggy Paperdoll

Okay.............that makes sense.

But does that mean that ATI is catering to Microsoft?

Whether it was arbitrary executive decisions... or closed-door agreements for certain parties advantage, who knows. I just know the MS-Vista, OpenGL drivers and ATI issue has really annoyed a lot of people.

_____________________

Cory Linden: "As we’ve talked about, the long term goals for Second Life are to make it a more open platform."

SecondLife: LL made the bottle... we made the whine, er, wine.

Tod69 Talamasca

The Human Tripod ;)

Join date: 20 Sep 2005

Posts: 4,107

05-24-2007 01:16

Well, in a way its the fault of Microsoft AND the companies. From what I understand, MS kept changing stuff for Vista and the video & sound card companies had a hard time getting any up-to-date info outta them, which is why the drivers are so buggy right now.

Like I've been saying all along: Don't buy an OS when it comes out! Wait a year!! Wait for the first Service Pack & see what people are saying.

I wont say "Vista Sucks" just yet. Of course, when I do get it, it'll be 'Ultimate Edition' and I'll be turning off any "eye candy" graphics. Dont really need that to use an OS and it just eats up system resources.

Learjeff Innis

musician & coder

Join date: 27 Nov 2006

Posts: 817

05-24-2007 07:50

HAHA, SL implemented in Java! Talk about LAG CITY!

ROTFLMAO

Java is way cool. It's also way slow. The NASCAR applications you're talking about don't hold a candle to the intense processing and networking requirements for SL -- the two applications are not comparable.

Peggy Paperdoll

A Brat

Join date: 15 Apr 2006

Posts: 4,383

05-24-2007 20:52

It was only a question...........and serious one on my part. But I'm glad you got such a kick out it anyway.

mectron Noodle

Registered User

Join date: 23 Feb 2006

Posts: 21

Flawed from the start?

05-24-2007 21:13

From: Jacques Groshomme

While it's a lot more subscribers, it's alot less work to stream that.

They only have to keep track of 43 objects, all with any of only 4 meshes, in relation to each other. And on these maximum 43 objects is a maximum of 43 textures. Then, create 43 different "camera view" streams to be consumed. The viewer isn't streaming anything back except when telling it to change views. That format allows to be extremely optimized, with

In a single Second Life sim, there can be potentially 15000 objects with continually changing textures and parameters, each with their own scripting subsystem, and up to 60 or 70 avatars such that every single thing needs to be constantly updated on the behavior, location, and appearance of every single other thing. This, multiplied by, what, nearly 5000 sims? This system can't really be optimized except for in a local cache.

It's really apples to oranges, without even comparing and contrasting the Java language compared to C# or C++ or bringing server database backends or operating systems into it.

So what your saying is that SL was flawed from the start and that there is no way of having a distributed virtual world that will run at a decent spead? That world of warcraft, Active World, Lord of the ring online and all the other online software that do more then 100 FPS on my machine are errors and every program should be as pathetic and slow as SL? and while a lot of 3d game offer the option of openGL or Direct X, SL should not because it will make Windows client more stable?

Kitty Barnett

Registered User

Join date: 10 May 2006

Posts: 5,586

05-25-2007 05:25

Someone far more versed in it that me should probably explain, but

.

The main reason why something else can work better and faster than SL I think is because most of it is static content which goes through quite intensive precalculating to help determine what can be occluded or significantly reduced in detail.

On the flip side SL builds are quite horrible when it comes to texture usage. We'll all slap a 512x512 or 1024x1024 texture on a prim that's 10cm and that noone is ever going to zoom in on.

If there was a way to mark builds (actually not sure if you could mix static and dynamic content) as static so that everything can be precalcuated, and people mind their texture usage, then that would be a significant improvement.

Then again, I'm only repeating what someone tried to explain to me and most of it just made my head hurt rather than make sense so I'm not all too sure how much of what I said is accurate

.

Brenda Connolly

Un United Avatar

Join date: 10 Jan 2007

Posts: 25,000

05-25-2007 07:09

From: Peggy Paperdoll

Okay.............that makes sense.

But does that mean that ATI is catering to Microsoft? And another (sort of related...........in a round about way) question. Why can't Java not be used? I'm a huge NASCAR fan and every Sunday I use my computer to enhance my TV watching of the races. NASCAR.com has a feature called "Trackpass" which lets subscribers have in-car video, in-car audio, real time telemetry, computer generated views from three different angles of any car racing at any track they race on. That's not less than 43 cars with three options (changable at my whim) of views...........audio, video, and animations. NASCAR has way more subscribers than SL has participating members. It's all done in real time (I know when cautions are out 5 secs before the the TV viewers.........they are on a 5 sec delay). It's all Java. Could SL not be run something like that? I'm sure there are three or four times the Trackpass users on Sundays as SL has on it's busiest day.

I'm no network person and my programming is very limited....but I don't know why it can't be done. NASCAR.com is worldwide...........not just US. Maybe Linden Labs with their mindset neglected to even consider it?

Isn't Trackpass great? iusually got to a friend's house to watch races on Direct TV. They have the Ride along with a driver deal. But if I am at home on raceday, Trackpass is great.

_____________________

Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.

http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com

Osgeld Barmy

Registered User

Join date: 22 Mar 2005

Posts: 3,336

05-25-2007 19:36

From: mectron Noodle

and while a lot of 3d game offer the option of openGL or Direct X, SL should not because it will make Windows client more stable?

it wouldnt make a difference, alot of the highest speed most stable games of all 32 bit windows time have been open GL based, its proven technology, and its not anything else but an option for developers

spend alot of time writing code for direct X so it can play on MS based products

OR

spend alot of time writing code for open GL so it can play on any product that meets the requirements

Spew Planer

Registered User

Join date: 27 May 2007

Posts: 2

05-27-2007 19:46

OpenGL allows SL to run on OS X + Linux + Windows in the same manner.

However, from personal experience, the OpenGL driver support + performance on Windows for all video cards is rather uneven.

Also OpenGL is software-friendly standard the video cards try to implement whereas DirectX is "hardware-oriented." The take the graphics language problem from different angles.

Why is Open GL so great?
Peggy Paperdoll A Brat Join date: 15 Apr 2006 Posts: 4,383	05-23-2007 19:03 I'm what most would call a lower end advanced user of computers. I build my own machines (meaning I eitther buy a "barebones" box and add to it or I buy individual components and put them together to get what I want.......install my OS and go with it). My question is really related only the the graphics card(s) that are available for most any machine. So much talk about ATI vs Invidia and Invidia being superior to ATI because of the Open GL rendering. Whats better about Open GL than any other rendering engine? SL apparently works better because they chose Open GL for their rendering..........why did they do that? Is Open GL so much better? What do the other engines lack that Open GL has that Linden Labs based their whole platform around it? I'm comfused. Thanks.
Rusty Satyr Meadow Mythfit Join date: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 610	05-23-2007 19:17 It's great because the alternative is limited to MS-Windows platforms. SecondLife has a lot of mac and linux users who'd be shut out without OpenGL. _____________________ Cory Linden: "As we’ve talked about, the long term goals for Second Life are to make it a more open platform." SecondLife: LL made the bottle... we made the whine, er, wine.
Peggy Paperdoll A Brat Join date: 15 Apr 2006 Posts: 4,383	05-23-2007 19:38 Okay.............that makes sense. But does that mean that ATI is catering to Microsoft? And another (sort of related...........in a round about way) question. Why can't Java not be used? I'm a huge NASCAR fan and every Sunday I use my computer to enhance my TV watching of the races. NASCAR.com has a feature called "Trackpass" which lets subscribers have in-car video, in-car audio, real time telemetry, computer generated views from three different angles of any car racing at any track they race on. That's not less than 43 cars with three options (changable at my whim) of views...........audio, video, and animations. NASCAR has way more subscribers than SL has participating members. It's all done in real time (I know when cautions are out 5 secs before the the TV viewers.........they are on a 5 sec delay). It's all Java. Could SL not be run something like that? I'm sure there are three or four times the Trackpass users on Sundays as SL has on it's busiest day. I'm no network person and my programming is very limited....but I don't know why it can't be done. NASCAR.com is worldwide...........not just US. Maybe Linden Labs with their mindset neglected to even consider it?
Tod69 Talamasca The Human Tripod ;) Join date: 20 Sep 2005 Posts: 4,107	05-23-2007 19:46 Rusty's right. OpenGL is cross-platform. DirectX is not. While I've seen more done in a game with DirectX, from what I've read, OpenGL & DirectX can do the same things. Its just the way stuff is coded thats different. Each has pros & cons.
Peggy Paperdoll A Brat Join date: 15 Apr 2006 Posts: 4,383	05-23-2007 20:16 Thanks Todd Now just for me or someone to figure out how to put an ATI card and an Invidia card in the same computer to automatically switch to the best for the application LOL No IRQ conflicts mind you . Ahhhh................give it a few months Thanks guys.....you both answered my question
Osgeld Barmy Registered User Join date: 22 Mar 2005 Posts: 3,336	05-23-2007 20:18 open GL is generally faster, its cross platform, its open source why not use something like java, well without a 3d graphics card interface like DX or GL you use software based rendering which is REALLY SLOW and crappy too, think playstation 1 running at 1fps yea so even if they choose to use a interperted language like java, theres a good chance to produce the level of quality they would still use on of the 2 what your seeing on nascar is 2d vector graphics, which is much much simplier for a computer to render (think about asteroids and how little computer power that had, same tech)
Jacques Groshomme Registered User Join date: 16 Mar 2005 Posts: 355	05-23-2007 20:44 From: Peggy Paperdoll Okay.............that makes sense. But does that mean that ATI is catering to Microsoft? And another (sort of related...........in a round about way) question. Why can't Java not be used? I'm a huge NASCAR fan and every Sunday I use my computer to enhance my TV watching of the races. NASCAR.com has a feature called "Trackpass" which lets subscribers have in-car video, in-car audio, real time telemetry, computer generated views from three different angles of any car racing at any track they race on. That's not less than 43 cars with three options (changable at my whim) of views...........audio, video, and animations. NASCAR has way more subscribers than SL has participating members. It's all done in real time (I know when cautions are out 5 secs before the the TV viewers.........they are on a 5 sec delay). It's all Java. Could SL not be run something like that? I'm sure there are three or four times the Trackpass users on Sundays as SL has on it's busiest day. I'm no network person and my programming is very limited....but I don't know why it can't be done. NASCAR.com is worldwide...........not just US. Maybe Linden Labs with their mindset neglected to even consider it? While it's a lot more subscribers, it's alot less work to stream that. They only have to keep track of 43 objects, all with any of only 4 meshes, in relation to each other. And on these maximum 43 objects is a maximum of 43 textures. Then, create 43 different "camera view" streams to be consumed. The viewer isn't streaming anything back except when telling it to change views. That format allows to be extremely optimized, with In a single Second Life sim, there can be potentially 15000 objects with continually changing textures and parameters, each with their own scripting subsystem, and up to 60 or 70 avatars such that every single thing needs to be constantly updated on the behavior, location, and appearance of every single other thing. This, multiplied by, what, nearly 5000 sims? This system can't really be optimized except for in a local cache. It's really apples to oranges, without even comparing and contrasting the Java language compared to C# or C++ or bringing server database backends or operating systems into it.
Tod69 Talamasca The Human Tripod ;) Join date: 20 Sep 2005 Posts: 4,107	05-23-2007 23:24 From: Peggy Paperdoll Thanks Todd Now just for me or someone to figure out how to put an ATI card and an Invidia card in the same computer to automatically switch to the best for the application LOL No IRQ conflicts mind you . As to the "Why" of ATI having so many issues, from what I've read about & talked with to others on Tech Forums, ATI uses a slightly different implementation of OpenGL (or did) while NVidia sticks with a standard. Some reading about the differences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_and_Direct3D http://www.toymaker.info/Games/html/directx_q_a.html#DX7 A nice lil' bit at the bottom of the 2nd Link which makes me want Vista to get the "kinks" out before I'd consider it: What is shader model 4? Shader model 4 is only supported by DirectX 10 running on Vista, it provides: A unified shader - no more differences between vertex and pixel shaders Geometry shaders - ability to create vertices on the GPU Resource virtualisation - virtual memory support Basically, it's gonna take a load off the CPU and make your video card do the work.
Rusty Satyr Meadow Mythfit Join date: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 610	05-23-2007 23:44 From: Peggy Paperdoll Okay.............that makes sense. But does that mean that ATI is catering to Microsoft? Whether it was arbitrary executive decisions... or closed-door agreements for certain parties advantage, who knows. I just know the MS-Vista, OpenGL drivers and ATI issue has really annoyed a lot of people. _____________________ Cory Linden: "As we’ve talked about, the long term goals for Second Life are to make it a more open platform." SecondLife: LL made the bottle... we made the whine, er, wine.
Tod69 Talamasca The Human Tripod ;) Join date: 20 Sep 2005 Posts: 4,107	05-24-2007 01:16 Well, in a way its the fault of Microsoft AND the companies. From what I understand, MS kept changing stuff for Vista and the video & sound card companies had a hard time getting any up-to-date info outta them, which is why the drivers are so buggy right now. Like I've been saying all along: Don't buy an OS when it comes out! Wait a year!! Wait for the first Service Pack & see what people are saying. I wont say "Vista Sucks" just yet. Of course, when I do get it, it'll be 'Ultimate Edition' and I'll be turning off any "eye candy" graphics. Dont really need that to use an OS and it just eats up system resources.
Learjeff Innis musician & coder Join date: 27 Nov 2006 Posts: 817	05-24-2007 07:50 HAHA, SL implemented in Java! Talk about LAG CITY! ROTFLMAO Java is way cool. It's also way slow. The NASCAR applications you're talking about don't hold a candle to the intense processing and networking requirements for SL -- the two applications are not comparable.
Peggy Paperdoll A Brat Join date: 15 Apr 2006 Posts: 4,383	05-24-2007 20:52 It was only a question...........and serious one on my part. But I'm glad you got such a kick out it anyway.
mectron Noodle Registered User Join date: 23 Feb 2006 Posts: 21	Flawed from the start? 05-24-2007 21:13 From: Jacques Groshomme While it's a lot more subscribers, it's alot less work to stream that. They only have to keep track of 43 objects, all with any of only 4 meshes, in relation to each other. And on these maximum 43 objects is a maximum of 43 textures. Then, create 43 different "camera view" streams to be consumed. The viewer isn't streaming anything back except when telling it to change views. That format allows to be extremely optimized, with In a single Second Life sim, there can be potentially 15000 objects with continually changing textures and parameters, each with their own scripting subsystem, and up to 60 or 70 avatars such that every single thing needs to be constantly updated on the behavior, location, and appearance of every single other thing. This, multiplied by, what, nearly 5000 sims? This system can't really be optimized except for in a local cache. It's really apples to oranges, without even comparing and contrasting the Java language compared to C# or C++ or bringing server database backends or operating systems into it. So what your saying is that SL was flawed from the start and that there is no way of having a distributed virtual world that will run at a decent spead? That world of warcraft, Active World, Lord of the ring online and all the other online software that do more then 100 FPS on my machine are errors and every program should be as pathetic and slow as SL? and while a lot of 3d game offer the option of openGL or Direct X, SL should not because it will make Windows client more stable?
Kitty Barnett Registered User Join date: 10 May 2006 Posts: 5,586	05-25-2007 05:25 Someone far more versed in it that me should probably explain, but . The main reason why something else can work better and faster than SL I think is because most of it is static content which goes through quite intensive precalculating to help determine what can be occluded or significantly reduced in detail. On the flip side SL builds are quite horrible when it comes to texture usage. We'll all slap a 512x512 or 1024x1024 texture on a prim that's 10cm and that noone is ever going to zoom in on. If there was a way to mark builds (actually not sure if you could mix static and dynamic content) as static so that everything can be precalcuated, and people mind their texture usage, then that would be a significant improvement. Then again, I'm only repeating what someone tried to explain to me and most of it just made my head hurt rather than make sense so I'm not all too sure how much of what I said is accurate .
Brenda Connolly Un United Avatar Join date: 10 Jan 2007 Posts: 25,000	05-25-2007 07:09 From: Peggy Paperdoll Okay.............that makes sense. But does that mean that ATI is catering to Microsoft? And another (sort of related...........in a round about way) question. Why can't Java not be used? I'm a huge NASCAR fan and every Sunday I use my computer to enhance my TV watching of the races. NASCAR.com has a feature called "Trackpass" which lets subscribers have in-car video, in-car audio, real time telemetry, computer generated views from three different angles of any car racing at any track they race on. That's not less than 43 cars with three options (changable at my whim) of views...........audio, video, and animations. NASCAR has way more subscribers than SL has participating members. It's all done in real time (I know when cautions are out 5 secs before the the TV viewers.........they are on a 5 sec delay). It's all Java. Could SL not be run something like that? I'm sure there are three or four times the Trackpass users on Sundays as SL has on it's busiest day. I'm no network person and my programming is very limited....but I don't know why it can't be done. NASCAR.com is worldwide...........not just US. Maybe Linden Labs with their mindset neglected to even consider it? Isn't Trackpass great? iusually got to a friend's house to watch races on Direct TV. They have the Ride along with a driver deal. But if I am at home on raceday, Trackpass is great. _____________________ Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen. http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com
Osgeld Barmy Registered User Join date: 22 Mar 2005 Posts: 3,336	05-25-2007 19:36 From: mectron Noodle and while a lot of 3d game offer the option of openGL or Direct X, SL should not because it will make Windows client more stable? it wouldnt make a difference, alot of the highest speed most stable games of all 32 bit windows time have been open GL based, its proven technology, and its not anything else but an option for developers spend alot of time writing code for direct X so it can play on MS based products OR spend alot of time writing code for open GL so it can play on any product that meets the requirements
Spew Planer Registered User Join date: 27 May 2007 Posts: 2	05-27-2007 19:46 OpenGL allows SL to run on OS X + Linux + Windows in the same manner. However, from personal experience, the OpenGL driver support + performance on Windows for all video cards is rather uneven. Also OpenGL is software-friendly standard the video cards try to implement whereas DirectX is "hardware-oriented." The take the graphics language problem from different angles.

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