What's the problem with opt-in listing search systems?

I've seen it said that a search system in which people have to choose to have items listed won't work. I don't understand why anyone would make this claim. There's all sorts of places to look for information that are widely used where the information in the list was placed there in an "opt-in" basis. Classified ads, for example, are opt-in, and not only exist but in some cases they are perceived as worth paying to get listed in and paying to read.

Basically the claim that opt-in search systems for Second Life objects for sale is completely unworkable, nearly impossible, patently absurd, etc., seems like total nonsense to me. Is there something I'm missing?

Sounds crazy to me, too. What are the arguments that have been put forward thus far against opt-in?

I can't think of a plausable argument for 'things for sale' either.

However, I can think of a (weak) argument that its common to list directory-type things in an opt-out format rather than opt-in:

For example - my local phone provider will list my name, address & phone number in the telephone book without my consent. (Or my consent is 'implied' by using their service). If I want to opt out, and have my telephone number unlisted - I actually have to pay a fee for that.

Really?

So, um, how many successful internet searches are based on opting in?

Could you imagine the support requests from people wondering why they don't show up in search? (Whereas if you have something inadvertently showing, it's pretty obvious to look to uncheck something to get out if it's a problem...)

For the corporation, just like number of residents, isn't there an obvious benefit to having more listed rather than a tiny fraction?

If the search only provided results from people who read the blog/forums and knew to opt in, it would be less useful than even the old search, and we'd have to search first SLX, then the new search, then the old classifieds, then the old places to find something!

Maybe here is an example, compare inworld for sale items to SLX? SLX is free, offers better descriptions, a boolean search sortable by more factors, has faster loading and pictures, discussions and ratings. SLX also offers multiple payment options and gifting even! I listed and sold items on SLX before doing so in world, and also have more items on SLX than offered in world. Yet in general, the opt in SLX service has a fraction of the offerings.

Classifieds are a good example too ironically, in that many choose not to pay for a classified and are only listed in places, or vice-versa for someone like me. How many users search both? Most of my friends didn't a year ago when I was listing things and asked them how they found things...

In trying to use the new search, I am frustrated that it isn't fully populated yet, others might not know if they don't find what they are looking for, to also search the old way and voila, there's more stuff!

I'd much rather have something that doesn't require action than the other way around! Think of the outcry if anyone who wanted to be listed had to go through all their currently for sale/priced items and also check an extra box that said "AND list in search". OMG!

I think the outcry would be words of praise. If you are too lazy to check a box on something you want to sell, I doubt you have anything worth selling anyway.

The problem is basically that it'd be caught in a loop.

No content opted in -> search doesn't find anything useful -> nobody searches that way -> everyone goes to Grid Shepherd -> why bother opting in?

Well. Firstly there's the purpose. A _search_ system, one that is meant to allow people to find anything in SL, is pretty pointless if opt-in, but a _product-for-sale search_ system isn't, as people selling things are definitely motivated to opt in.

There is also the issue of customer knowledge... this could potentially be a problem for a third party, as they don't have the ability to make sure everyone in SL is aware that they can sign up for their site. They might argue that the benefit that they are offering people who would wish to list if they could counteracts the privacy implications, which isn't a terribly convincing argument for me, but it is one that might be used.

On the other hand the last point clearly isn't a problem for LL, who can put in reminders in Classifieds and profile tabs and welcome messages and so on.

I am certainly of the opinion that opt-in would be far better, even if it would mean that quite a lot of SL would be search-invisible. I said it for the Sheepbot and I'm saying it here, too.

Personally, I'm undecided on whether opt-in or opt-out is better. I'm torn, because I see the importance of a viable search engine vs. the potential abuse that will inevitably result.

I think though, that there's a much greater philosophical issue here:

Where is the dividing line between public vs. private in SL?

Of course, when an object is sitting in my inventory - that's private. But what happens once I rez it in-world? Is it still private, or is it now public? (Public from a 'viewable' perspective, not edit or copy)

I don't know if I have a clear answer for that one. Some may say that if its sitting behind a virtual locked door, that object is private. Others may argue that inherently with the way the camera works - there's no such thing as private.

If there is no such thing as privacy in SL, the question of opt-in or opt-out may be irrelevant. If there *is* indeed such a thing as 'privacy behind locked doors' in SL, this may be less an opt-in or opt-out problem, but rather - Linden needs to solve the technical problem of "Rezzed In World" and "Private" being mutually exclusive

Its opt-out because the computer geeks think thats the only viable system.

Its not the only viable system of course, but some people see the world through Google Colored glasses.

Ouch!

Sorry I offered other perpectives...

Actually, my few items are mostly in a vendor, so there's no impact to me either way!

But the trick to answering the original question is thinking beyond yourself, or your opinions of individuals, to Linden Research's needs, users actually searching, then those who have opted to pay to have their parcels listed and have items set for sale.

I obviously gladly spend time setting my things for sale, I also have happily unchecked things that I didn't create from resell, maybe that's why I'm not bothered?


Isn't it a key difference though, with LL's approach, that it's in our hands? Someone has to choose to list their parcel (pay to even?) plus opt to keep items set for sale? (Plus we were told about it well ahead of time?)

The thing is that once something is opt-out, it remains opt-out forever. Even if the system stops, somebody could have scraped it, and there will be archives and caches. In fact, opting out is of limited use in terms of a public system anyway for that reason.

Systems which are opt-in do not have that issue; they can always become opt-out in the future if need be. Thus I always tend, if in doubt, to prefer opt-in - and in this case I'm not really in doubt, as opt-out in Linden Search is a huge change in world behaviour and has several identified problems already, whereas we already have a perfectly functional economy based on opt-in-except-for-parcel-details.

To be honest I think this a moot point. There are different levels of privacy of information based on how difficult it is to access that information (and what any penalties for doing so might be) just as in the real world. There is no real dividing line between "private" and "public".

The question is how easy it is made to access the information, and that is a deliberate act. My location is public in that if I am in a sim, I can be scanned and listed as being there, but there is no SL client tool to allow people to map me without my explicit consent, and there is always lots of trouble when something enables that.

I wasn't being personal, I was using the general 'you'. I'm actually in the same situation, everything I sell is in vendors. But I just thought your comment that there would be this huge rush of upset people over the system being opt in was a bit of an exaggeration. Well more properly a *huge* exaggeration. 90% of the people probably don't care, as they don't sell anything. The other 10% who do, are going to take the necessary steps to be listed in search, *if* that is their desire. As Ordinal has stated, erring on the side of caution is best, not listing someone who wants to be listed is preferable to listing someone who does not want to be listed. A Non-Listing can be corrected, but once listed, it's out there for perpetuity. (and that's a long time. )

Aren't the telephone yellow pages basically an opt-in search? They seem to work...

I didn't ask which is better, opt out or opt in.

There have been many a post made by supporters of opt-out search that act like opt-in search is some kind of physical impossibility or logical contradiction that only a crazy person would even think of supporting. There's never any evidence to support it.

So far I'm not seeing any statements that indicate opt-in search wouldn't work just fine.

The impression I get from what I've read is that opt-out supporters think that only a few people would list items for search, even if there was a box in the object editor to check for being included in search. What would lead them to believe this, I have no idea. They say people wouldn't know about it except for those that read the forums or the wiki. Why they say this I don't understand. Most of what gets done in SL is done by people that don't read the forums or the wiki or much other off-world documentation. Why clicking a "List This" box in the editor would be different I don't know.

Come to think of it, a "List This" box in the editor might be a way to get the items sold in vendors listed in search.

Not sure how this would work. The idea, I guess, is that items in an object's inventory (objects, animations, textures... well, anything, I guess) could have a "List This" property that would get them included in Search from within inventory. Presumably that property would apply regardless of the object in which the item was contained. That is, how to know if something is a vendor or not? Judging on the basis of the presence of a hander for money() events would miss the items in a networked vendor's server. And probably those items wouldn't want to be associated with a parcel, since the inventory of items for sale from networked vendors isn't necessarily anywhere near the vendor. Maybe these things don't matter... or possibly I'm just not understanding.