Time to Upgrade, Wheeee!

Hey folks,

I have finally saved enough money to upgrade my silly old computer. I just have a question on which graphics card would be best for me. I'm looking for the top of the line, 256mb. And something with Nvidia, because my current card is one, and I'm happy with it.

Here are my current specs:
Dell Dimension 2350 Series
Intel Pentium 4 1.8 GHz
256 MB RAM
Geforce4 MX 440 64MB
PCI (not Express) Slots (Yes, it's OLD!)

I'm already getting two 512mb RAM for my computer, and I have found two possibilites for the graphics card.

1. Geforce FX 5200 PCI 256mb
2. PNY Verto Geforce FX 5500 128mb (DDR) <----I know it's not 256mb, but I guess if I can't find anything else, I would have to downgrade
3. Radeon 9200 128mb <---same as above

I was wondering if either of these are good enough to get the best possible graphics in Second Life without my computer exploding. OR if you have a better suggestion for a graphics card, I surely would appreciate it.
Thank you so much!!

Arbel, looking over your existing system specifications, as well as some of the options you are considering, I'm left wondering: What, specifically, are you hoping to improve by your upgrade? E.g.: what's the intended outcome? I assume that it is improved client FPS.

A 256mB Nvidia card is certainly going to help, especially since more video RAM may reduce texture swapping in Second Life, but you may want to think about the longevity of any PCI-based video card these days (as opposed to AGP and PCI-Express). PCI is typically 33mhz 32bit and was becoming obsolete for 3D performance video in 1998...

You may benefit from a system with a faster front-side bus and/or more memory bandwidth, like an i865/875 Northwood P4, an Nforce2 Ultra 400 Athlon XP, or a Socket-939 Athlon 64, all of which offer dual-channel PC3200 support.

Well, let me tell you the problem that I'm having now. When I boot my computer, and start SL, everything is working fine, FPS is good, I have everything on the lowest setting, except Avatar Detail (Max). After a half hour or so, things get a little choppy. An hour passes, things get bad. This happens when there are other avs around. When I decide to go someplace else, either one of the two, or both happens: I lose all my objects and I have to relog, the whole environment doesn't load, so I have to relog. When I do relog, the system runs slow and it takes a good while to get back to SL. And sometimes when I get back, my objects are still gone, but things run slower than the previous time I logged. So I really don't know well enough about the technical part of SL, but I hope what I'm getting out of a really little upgrade is a better than what I have now.

I know PCI is obsolete, but I have a few options...if I do an upgrade on my old computer with an AGP or PCIX slot, I have to also replace the motherboard, which I have no idea what to do on that part, I read that if I did replace it, I might as well buy a fitting case for it all, because the type of motherboard for this series of Dell is uniquely shaped, or something like that. I also have to make sure that the Dell parts that I already have, including the Dell memory cards I plan to purchase, is compatible with the new motherboard, and all that other hoo-plah. I really don't want to go through all that, unless I hire someone who knows what they are doing, which I don't think I have the money to pay.

I also have the option to purchase a new computer altogether. I looked online at Alienware and found my dream computer.....for a little over 3k, lol. Either I pay monthly with a 21% APR, or save the whole amount and purchase it full amount. But that will take forever to save.

So to tell you the truth, I have no idea what I want. Maybe I shouldn't upgrade at all. I'm just looking for more affordable and productive options, I want to be able to enjoy all that SL has to give. I can only hang out at no more than three places until it's time to log off and turn off the computer. I just need something, or someone that can help me on this.

Edited: I hope one day I can start a clothing biz on SL also, but that may not happen until I get the gist of the whole texure making and following patterns. I have experiemented some. I don't know if I should even mention it, but I hope it gives an idea what I want...

I feel somewhat discouraged at the moment...

Thank you both for the fast replies and the really great input.

As far as the CPU goes, I had no idea you can just replace that! *smacks forehead* And that's what I want to upgrade too, just the processor. I need to be more specific next time...

After looking at Powerleap.com, I thought to myself...."Should I really put all this money into an old, "obsolete" computer or keep saving my money for a decent one?" I mean, I already have enough money to buy a standard computer, in about a month or two, I'm sure I'll have enough to get a really decent computer with the right specs that I need to enjoy SL and other graphics programs needed to create my future clothing line...

Maybe right now I need to find the right desktop in its entirety.

I already looked through Dell....great prices except for the fact that they don't give you the choice to switch out their integrated card....Alienware....haha...

I'm so sorry to bother you guys about an issue I don't even have a decision for. It's kind of hard to be in this situation, I'm sure you had this problem before...maybe...

Arbel -

Yes, Alienware and Falcon make awesome machines that are truly top-of-the-line-make-you-drool systems.

BUT, you really don't need an absolute top-of-the-line system to play SL. Any basic sound-card is good enough, any basic networking card is fine, etc.

The big items are: CPU speed, System RAM, and Video Card. Those three things are responsible for about 95% of the performance of any 3d application. If you want to get crazy, the motherboard can account for the other 5% - but it's really not as much of an issue. Video Cards come with different amounts of RAM as well. These days, 64MB is a minimum you should go with. 128MB is nice, and 256MB is nice to have but more than you need - and pricey!

You can swap out CPU and RAM on almost any machine - but motherboards all have limits as to the speeds and types of CPUs and RAM they will accept; so you'd have to do your homework on your Motherboard before embarking on a major upgrade.

My suggestion is this:

You already have a Monitor, Speakers, Keyboard, Mouse, etc. You also already have Hard-Drives and CD-ROM drives you can swap into the new machine, if you want "extra" drives.

With your current system, even a "Budget" PC from a place like Gateway or Dell is going to be almost twice as fast - when it comes to the CPU speed.

The achillies' heel in these Budget systems, is the limited RAM that they come with; and the crappy integrated-video. BUT, most Motherboards with integrated video still come with an AGP slot. So Call Dell, find out if their Budget PC's have an AGP slot. If they do, spring for the cheapest model that has an AGP slot. If it has an AGP slot, the Dimension 3000 looks nice, for $449. Upgrade the Processor to 2.60 Ghz ($36), upgrade it to at least 512MB RAM ($36), choose either the free DVD drive or the free CD-RW drive, choose "No Monitor" (save $45). That totals $476 + tax & shipping. Then, go buy a good AGP video card for around $200 (right now I'd go with a Radeon 9800 Pro with as much memory as you can get - 128MB models are sufficient and go for about $150; 256MB models go for around $250).

You'd be all set up for around $750. (And although Dell rarely says how much, going with the shortest warranty period can save a few bucks, too)

That will give you a system that's going to perform decently-well over the next 2 years. You can get deals on video-cards if you look online - www.pricewatch.com is a great place to search (www.newegg.com is one of my favorite companies to check as well). HOWEVER, the world of Video Cards is a very tricky one, so before going to Pricewatch, figure out the exact model & specs you want to buy, then use Pricewatch to find a company selling it - be careful and make sure you're getting the right card, before you buy! There are some "scams" on Pricewatch - so www.resellerratings.com is a good place to check the company, before buying from them.

I'm not a huge Dell "fanboy" - but they certainly seem to have cornered the market on low prices for budget-to-mid-level PC's. Gateway comes close; but typically allows less customization (at least online).
Hope this info helps, take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)

P.S. If you have a higher budget of around $1,000 - then I'd go for a Dimension 8400 w/ No Monitor. All the other default options are great. If you can push it to $1100, opt for the nVidia GeForce 6800 video card. I like Radeons myself; but Dell is charging too much for them with the Dimension 8400.

Indeed any kind of upgrade, such as a "top of the line" geforce purchase would be better than your rubust, yet still mediocre at best 64mb geforce 4mx. I'm not being rude, I have one myself and it really doesn't cut it for second life as much as we'de all like them to.

With a better video card you will find better graphics performance for sure.

However, you would find even better performance with a total system upgrade, of course. However that isn't always feasable cost wise.

Damn Tread, lol

That REALLY helped! I can just virtually kiss you, hehe~

Now it's up to me and see if I want to go through with this.....and also see if I can qualify for financing, don't want to spend ALL my money at once.

Um, if you guys really want to know, I can update and tell how things went.

But THANK YOU EVERYBODY! I have been fighting this issue for weeks, and now I know all the options I can go for...

For someone who has been with computers for years, I sure don't know alot xD

Just a word of caution:

Be *very sure* about the financing terms before you accept them!

When I was about 19, I got a Gateway on financing through MBNA; and it turned out to be some insane APR of like 25% or something; and had huge late-fees. With a couple of missed payments, my $1,400 computer ended up costing close to $2,000.

I'm not saying you shouldn't go for it - just be sure of what you're getting; with both the financing and the Video-cards! Prices only get lower in the computer-industry; so if you're unsure about something, taking 1 or 2 more days to get it right won't hurt!

And you're welcome, Arbel - please let us know what cool toys you end up with!

Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)
....Who is unemployed, so he's still stuck with an Athlon 1.4Ghz w/GeForce3 Ti... *sigh*

Well, after posting all about Dell...

Gateway's website is now selling a "Small Business" Desktop (the 3250SB model) for about $500 (or as little as $350 for some of the lower-end 3200 series ones without a monitor)... PLUS they come with a $100 mail-in rebate! You can customize it, too - so you can upgrade the RAM to 512MB for only $65 - and the Processor to be slightly faster for only $15!! Some of the other upgrades are much cheaper than Dell's upgrades. All of my previous suggestions apply: call to find out if it has an AGP slot; and then add on a video-card after you buy it.

Geez, I remember when a little bit of RAM cost more than these whole computers do! *sigh*

Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)

There are some really cheap computer systems for sale at the big box electronics stores right now (Best Buy, CompUSA, Circuit City, Office Depot, etc.). Last weekend we were perusing the sale ads and found several systems that would play SL just fine for between $500 and $900. I was really desperate to get something new before Christmas, but now I'm glad I waited.

One potential bad thing about buying this type of system, though, is that you will most likely find ATI graphics cards in them, or worse yet, the stupid integrated graphics thing that is useless. The system I wound up buying has an ATI Radeon X300 SE, and even with pretty solid specs (3.0 gig processor, 1.0 gb RAM, 250 gb HD, 800 FSB), I'm crashing so much more in SL than I did with my GEForce 5600 256 on my old 1.6/512 mb/400 FSB system.

I intend to swap out this ATI card for one of the PCI-Express nvidias as soon as I get to the point where I can't take the crashes anymore.

Are you sure its the ATI card causing the problems?

I've never had problems with Radeons - but haven't tried any of the X-series, admittedly.

My problem with the "Big Box" store PC's is that they ususally use no-name brand parts that are crap and cause system instability.

All PC manufacturers used to be this way, actually; but Dell, Gateway, and a couple of others now use good brand-name parts and have a good track record of system compatibility & stability. I remain unconvinced with places like Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.

Also, the "Big Box" stores tend to load their machines full of crappy utility & security programs that bog the system down. So you buy a hot new system; and it performs like crap...

I'm not a fan-boy of either company; but I've had extensive office & home experience with Dells and Gateways... Neither has ever let me down - so that's why I keep bringing up these two brands. I used to assemble all my own PC's in the 90's; but nowadays you just can't build one cheaper than you can buy one.

If you haven't already, I'd run some system diagnostics, to see if you have a hardware problem; and maybe check in with Customer Service for the place you bought your system from - if its a brand-new machine and its having problems, now is the time to get them to look at it, before the warranty expires!

Just my $0.02...

Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)

P.S. For the Brand-sensitive; both Gateway & Dell machines with customizable graphics cards (usually the mid to high-end models) have the option of ATI OR nVidia.

Tread, you're right, I should investigate other reasons why I might be crashing. I just assumed it was the Radeon card since SL has always had documented issues with the ATI graphics cards.

As far as buying from a big box store, I have had okay luck with them, I guess; the last system I bought was from Best Buy, and I didn't really have any problems. The issue of the machines coming with a bunch of pre-loaded crap is valid, though I assumed that comps ordered from Dell or Gateway came with the same stuff. We do buy an extended warranty on our comps so that we can add stuff (memory, different graphics cards, etc.) without invalidating the warranty.

I have had relatively more crashes since SL version 1.5, I must admit, but the crashes I've had in the past few days with the new computer have been more frequent (like, three in the span of 30 minutes, if I'm flying around or moving my camera around a lot). I very rarely crashed on the old system with the nvidia card pre-1.5.