Running SL unsafe for your computer?

Before SL used to crash. It does not seem to do that any more, now it just locks up your entire computer and you have to power it off to get it back. This can not be good for your computer, who knows what it is doing. I had a power supply blow up last week while running SL, coincidence...maybe...

I have talked to others who are having the same problems, these freeze ups can't be good and having to shut off power while windows is operating certainly is not good. With it locked up you can't tell what its doing, if the harddrive is active or not.

I have read of video cards overheating and stuff like that also. Perhaps LL has loaded too much into the viewer that it can no longer be run safely on a normal computer.

I don't think SL is your problem with system lock ups. SL is a very graphics/cpu intensive program which does work those components quite vigorously but no program can push those devices beyond their capabilities........they will simply go as far as they can and then do no more. SL usually crashes at that point (or you lag to stand still) but your system should not lock up like you discribe. There are any number of things that could be the cause but most likely it's a heating problem on either your graphics card or CPU........possibly the power supply, but you said you replaced that recently. Take the sides off your case and get a can of compressed air and blow all the built up dust out. Take that little straw and direct it insid the power supply and blow the fan backward to get all the dust out........same the the case fans. Then after you've done that before you put the sides on turn your computer on and check to see if the fans are working. I wouldn't leave it running too long since many computers cooling is designed to be most effective with the case properly closed up. Your CPU has a fan and some graphics cards have fans too......check them (I forgot to say to blow the dust out of those too).

A hard drive going south could cause lock ups too. Do a check disk (scan disk, whatever it's called). You could also have a program running that conflicts with SL.......anti virus sometimes does that. Try shutting things down one at a time to see if they might be the problem.

SL requires a little more than a low budget computer, but a "normal" computer should run SL okay.........not fantastic but nothing like what you have going for you right now.

You don't mention which viewer you are using, and I haven't tried the last two or three release candidates, but I've never had SL lock up my computer.

I've had it overheat my old laptop's video card on several occasions, and even the new laptop struggles to keep up at times, but that's the worst I've seen.


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One of the biggest killers of computers next to static is heat. The more work your system has to do, the greater the heat. As already stated here, dust build up is an issue, expecially for older computers and or laptops. Dust is a perfect insulator to trap heat. Even having a fine layer of dust on the motherboard, acts like a blanket to all those very minute tracks (data buses) and cables.

Having good air circulation is of little use if that air is hot to start with. As most of the human race now live in air tight boxes with central heating, what maybe comfortable for you, is unconfortable for your electrical equipment.

Heat can also cause 'creepage', whereby elecrtical components can move due to heat expansion and contraction, unless your components are captive, they can literally move out of their sockets. This used to be a common problem with memory chips and cards (graphic, networking etc), but manufacturers these days clip them in place.

Hard disc have an average MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) rating of 50,000 hours. That may sound a lot, but leave your PC on 24/7 and all that time, including downtime, counts against that time. Given it is an average, you maybe unlucky and have a spindle bearing getting slack and then begin overheating.

With the increases in Data Bus, FSB, Memory, HD, CPU speeds, there is an increased need for better cooling.

I suggest that you are probably suffering 'memory leaks', although that's a misquote as it doesn't acctually 'leak', is it a condition where memory is not free'd up for other uses when instructed. BSOD can result if that memory is mapped for the OS and it cannot regain control of it.

I can assure you that the OP"s "freeze up" condition is quite real. I have been fighting this condition for months now - sometimes I go a few days between hard freezes, other times it happens several times a day.

The symptoms are just as the OP described. The computer freezes, mouse movement included, and even ctrl-alt-del does not work - pressing the reset button is the only fix.

For me, this problem most frequently happens within the first minute or two of logging in. But it does happen at other times as well.

My computer has *no* similar problems with any other application or game - only SL.

It - at least for me - is not heat, power supply, or out-of-memory related. I have placed probes and monitors on all of those and they are registering in the normal ranges. (Although any of these might certainly be causing problems for others.) I have tried multiple versions of my graphics drivers - including "the most recent" - with no effect. It's not anti-virus - I've tried running with it shut off, also with no effect.

I have looked closely at the logs after these incidents, but can see no obvious trend. And because of the nature of the problem, it is extremely likely that the last second or two before the hard freeze is not getting written to the log - so even Linden Lab folks who analyze the error reports (assuming there are such folks), would not see the event(s) that occurred immediately prior to the lockup.

I have posted elsewhere in this forum one thing that does seem to make a difference for me - which is disabling the power-saving feature which causes the CPU to throttle down when load is low.

It *does* appear that the newest release candidates have lowered the frequency of my freeze up's. I hope this trend continues!

If you are not experiencing these issues, consider yourself fortunate, and please do not doubt that the OP's symptoms are real.

Pecos

OS: Windows XP
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual 5200+
RAM: 2 gig
Graphics: Nvidia 8600GT

I don't think anyone was doubting the OP's computer locking up. I know I was not. I've had my computer lock up myself...........not often but I've had it do exactly as she describe. I've had power supply failures.........the computer started the lock ups maybe a week before the failure on one occassion. I've had a hard drive die on me, rather recently in fact. The computer did many strange things the days and weeks before the failure......including complete lock ups. Back in the day when I nothing about how a computer worked I got those lock ups (Win 98SE) and a geek friend of mine found the problem to be IRQ conflicts causing my problems........he also is the one who hammered into my head the need to clean the inside of my computer dilivently and often. Since those days I've built 4 computers myself......and learned a great deal about preventative maintenance. Cleaning and checking for fan operation is so simple.......and since I've been doing those things I've had a complete lock up that could not be explained (power supply failure, hard drive failure, etc).

A software can work your computer to the max........SL is such a program. And as someone stated a hard working computer is generating a lot of heat. Heat kills electronics. But it's not the software that is causing the lock ups.......it's something within the computer that does that or the operation system itself (conflicts, etc.). If SL is pushing your computer to the point of lock ups then something is wrong with the computer. Most likely something to do with heat. Don't get me wrong, SL can crash your computer and it can be all software related.......but if your computer is in good shape and you have no operating system corruption it will not lock it up.

PS........the OP has admitted to killing the power to get the computer unlocked. That, in itself, could very well be the problem. Powering down with Windows still running (even if it's crashed) is dangerous because that often does corrupt files.......and a corrupted Operating system can certainly lock a computer up. Perhaps the problem goes back the the power supply failure the OP had and due to powering down to get the computer unlocked Windows got damaged. Or there was a spike from the PS that damaged somthing in the computer. There is almost an endless list of possible causes.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.......but the OP really seems to have computer problems. And Pecos, if your computer is doing the same thing you minght need to look further than SL being the cause. I'm afraid you might find out the hard way that it is more serious than that.

If it takes time to freeze up, you need to find ways to monitor heat. Speedfan is nice for most motherboards that have built in sensors. Having nice fast processors means nothing of it's overheating. If you really do think heat is a problem, you should consider a heatsink makeover. (^_^)

Look for aftermarket heatsinks that use heatpipes, large diameter fans, and pay attention to airflow direction. Fans blowing against each other can cause heat to buildup in a case that could normally run cool with the hardware it has. (=_=)

I myself use a nice big Thermaltake Armor case with Zalmans heatsinks and speed controlled fans. The whole machine runs at a steady 61c no matter what I toss at it. As the load increases, the noise comes up a little, but never distracting. (^_^)y

Also... One of you said your power supply died. It was probably overloaded. You want your power supply to be capable of double the current consumption of the board to avoid any noise that comes from stressed components that leads to crashing under heavy loads. And in the end... *POOF* there too. (>_<

A reasonably well maintained computer that meets SL's requirements to run the program will run fine without overheating. If you are overclocking your CPU or GPU then extra measures are in order. An off the shelf computer that has high end graphics and CPU will run cool enough to not overheat to the point of damaging stuff. If you add something later that requires more from your PSU then you would be best to go ahead and upgrade that component too.........otherwise you could be wasting you money or, more importantly, doing serious damage to your whole system.

Big, exotic cooling systems for computers are available.......though most off the shelf Dells, Lenovos, and Sonys, even if "Gamers grade", will not accomodate those cooling systems without big modifications to the case and such. If you want a computer that requires those methods then you are best to build it yourself or have it customer made. Adding a extra case fan or two usually can be made. Getting better CPU and GPU fans are also usually something you can do too. Getting a bigger power supply is something that almost all computers can handle.......they are more or less standard devices (the motherboard dictates the connectiong cables is all you need to know). If your computer's motherboard supports monitoring (and most do) then software to do the monitoring is a great investment.

Good discussion. I hope it helps some people.

I totally agree that overheating can and will cause severe problems, including system lock-ups. Proper heatsinks, fans, etc. are critical.

However, for me, this does not appear to be the problem. I do have motherboard monitoring of heat on the CPU, the GPU and ambient case temps. They are always well within the ranges listed by the manufacturer, and there are not spikes or high temps associated with my system's freezing.

I don't *think* my power supply is the issue. The monitoring I've done does not show any dangerous dips or lack of power. I am not overclocking. I even tried underclocking both the CPU and GPU and neither seemed to help.

Disabling AMD "Cool'n'Quiet" does seem to help. Disabling makes the CPU run full speed all the time, and not dip down to slower speeds when not taxed. I don't know why this helps - my best guess is that perhaps the CPU does not ramp up to full speed fast enough when needed?

Peggy - I agree that something must not be right in my system, or it would not lock up. If *everyone* using SL locked up, I think we might have heard that

I just wish I knew what combination of drivers, other programs, heat, network, power, OS corruption, and who know what else is causing this repeating issue.

I will say that for the past 48 hours, using Release Candidate 6, I have not locked up. So *maybe* something deep in the guts of SL has been fixed. But, I'm sure as soon as I post this, the computer gods will laugh and I'll instantly freeze the next time I log in.....

Pecos

Here's a third voice confirming what they are saying. I have brand new computer, 750W power supply, temperatures all monitored and within range, no dust. In the past 24 hours, after being on this computer fine for the past 4 weeks, and no software changes (by me since) SL has begun locking up my computer so bad that I have to pull the power plug out, and walk away for half an hour before it will let me restart it. This *only* occurs with SL, with both official releases and the current beta release.

Might be video drivers, maybe a new one came down in a Vista update. I'm going to try putting on an older nvidia driver.

So as Pecos said, " If you are not experiencing these issues, consider yourself fortunate, and please do not doubt that the OP's symptoms are real." I'm a believer!

I'm sure the OP's condition is very real......same with Pecos and yourself. I'm also sure that the SL software is not unsafe for your computer. Few programs are as CPU and GPU intensive as SL. The program pushes most computers way beyond what other programs do..........even games like WoW. A high performance machine will handle it quite easily, while a midrange machine will handle it quite well but pretty well maxed out. Most low end will perform less than desirable (or not at all). Get a minor glitch in a driver, OS, or rise in core temp of a chip (or any of an almost infinite list of possibilities) and all bets are off for the machine continuing to operate properly. If your system is locking up to the point of having to pull the plug to kill the power then you best look somewhere else for your problems besides SL's software. You can stop using the game and maybe experience no more difficulties.........and think you've solved the problem. You didn't solve it......it's still there, unfixed. It will come back to bite you again..........probablly with a castatrophic failure of some kind. An operating system is about the only software that I know of that can cause a lock up like discribed...........all other causes are component/hardware related. Loss of data and files is almost guaranteed when either the OS or component finally gives up on you.

And, yes, eventually most people will exoerience a lock up sooner or later. The point I'm making is that when it does, don't stick your head in the sand and call it fixed. Find the problem and take care of it properly. My recent hard drive failure did not catch me by suprised completely........though I was not 100% ready for it's death. I lost a lot of stuff......but not all since I knew something was about to happen because I started getting lock ups. It just happened way faster than I thought it would......about a week instead of the couple months I figured I had.

It's not just heat that causes "lock ups".

Generally what you'll find is that its a particular instruction on your graphics card's gpu that the card is unable to perform. This might be why you have the problem with SL and not other games, since each game will only utilise a particular string of commands (which is also the reason why you can run some games but not others with certain graphics cards, or why different graphics cards make the "pictures look different".

Lockups are generally a good sign that your graphics card is on the way out.
OR
That your RAM is either improperly installed or on its way out.
OR
That your motherboard has not been earthed properly or has been scratched and is on its way out.
OR
That your hard drive is corrupting, though usually you'll hear a scratching sound when this happens.

These things can all be caused by excessive heat. But they can also be equally caused by interference from other environmental variables (eg excessive salty air, excessive humidity, presence of nearby microwave ovens, people who put magnets on their case, physical scratches on your motherboard, etc).

You may find that it starts only happening with one program and then as the hardware further degrades, other actions are also affected. Sometimes you may find that your system will lock up when you're doing nothing at all. Some days will be better than others, until eventually it just gets worse and worse and then the computer won't turn on at all.

When my PC used to have these same problems I deduced that it was caused by the presence of a microwave on the other side of the wall... monitor used to flicker crazy when something was cooking. It was also a really hot summer. I ended up replacing:
a) motherboard (because if it wasn't the video card it was probably the motherboard the video card was connected to)
b) video card (bearings went on the fan about 3yrs prior)
c) power supply (its case was starting to rust)

I spent $112 on a cheap system to support a Duron 800 with SDRAM. The computer ran SL and most other games I play.

I'm not suggesting you trade in your superfast/superexpensive system for a crappy one like I did, but in terms of diagnosing the problem it certainly is a cheaper option than replacing each component with a more expensive model.

The vast majority of of lockups are caused by driver related issues, with heat related issues coming in second.

Certainly, hardware failures do cause crashes, and are responsible in some cases.

So when your computer locks up while playing a game, it generally shouldn't worry you. Instead, you should go about looking for driver updates, and reading your memory dumps (as they tell you a lot).

When a hard disk makes bad noises, it's not "corrupting" so much as the r/w heads are crashing onto the surface of the disk, destroying the drive from the inside out. Aside from noises, a good indicator of a failing disk is horrific disk performance, taking forever to perform r/w operations that used to happen pretty quickly.

To check for memory issues, memtest86 is a good program to run. You should run it overnight.

Also, about your PC, the fact that the PSU was rusting is extremely worrying. I would suggest moving your PC to another room in the house if it the conditions in that particular room are causing rust.

Agreed. I would always suspect software first, before I went looking for faeries living inside the case.

But I think in general SL is very demanding, and that there's very little else out there like it to whack a computer so thoroughly. To suggest otherwise would just provoke howls of laughter from SL users in general.

And that is one of the limiting factors to SL growing much more: the technical entry barriers are very high.