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Its time for SL techs to fix the game....NOW |
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Ken Virgo
Fighting GURU
Join date: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 62
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10-27-2004 07:29
!. The lag issue needs to be fixed...not addressed anymore. FIXED.
2. When youre sitting there the objects will go black for about 1 second then come back. Then when you are walking you will walk through walls and then bounce back to your same spot. 3. Teleporting is fried. when you TP ....it will stop trying and you will be in the smae place you were then 5 sec ;ater suddenly tp to the same place then TP to where you wnated to go as a diffrent Avtar. Sometimes as a female.   |
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
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10-27-2004 07:34
I don't think demanding 'NOW' in capital letters is going to get them to respond any faster.
Btw, the second on your list is often down to your connection and your client updating. I get that a lot if I'm trying to use my bandwidth doing other stuff at the same time as SL. Of course, if you're talking about sim borders, then yeah, that's different. |
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Moleculor Satyr
Fireflies!
Join date: 5 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,650
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10-27-2004 07:48
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eltee Statosky
Luskie
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,258
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10-27-2004 10:49
unless yer talking yer ping to LL, yer lag is caused almost exclusively by yer neighbors... it only takes one 'bad' build to fry the framerate of everyone in an entire sim, easily dropping it by half or more
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wash, rinse, repeat
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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10-27-2004 11:19
Ken, I've experienced some of the same difficulties as you but it is not necessary to be so forceful about it. LL is aware of the problems, as they have been posted about a great many times and are publicly visible.
 As for lag, there will always be a degree of latency. It can be minimized, and hopefully over the next years, fatter bandwidth pipes and more efficient coding will help deal with this. We continue to progress. I've also experienced turning into "Ruth" (female av) sometimes after a TP. There are TP bugs but they happen some of the time, not all as you seem to be implying. Cheers.  _____________________
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Andrew Linden
Linden staff
Join date: 18 Nov 2002
Posts: 692
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10-27-2004 14:05
'Lag' is such an ambiguous word. More context is required.
Ken, it isn't clear to me what variety of lag (rendering FPS, network ping, server load) is the largest contributor to your problems. Could you please post some information about your computer settup: OS, CPU, RAM, video card, and video drivers? Also helpful would be info about your network connectivity, your ping-time to our servers when you're experiencing the problem, your 'draw distance' setting in the preferences, and where you are in SL when experiencing the severe lag. We're working on the 'lag problem' right now, but I expect you'll experience the most bang for our time if you help us identify the bottleneck that is interfering with your SL experience. |
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Maxx Monde
Registered User
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 1,848
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10-27-2004 15:51
Translation: (unofficial)
It could be anything, you FPS-spoiled nerd-herdler, just relax! |
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Marker Dinova
I eat yellow paperclips.
Join date: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 608
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10-27-2004 22:45
I remember that one thing that greatly reduced lag for me was the fog setting in the options tab. Set it to 4, draw distance to 128 and drop draw if fps < 20
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The difference between you and me = me - you.
The difference between me and you = you - me. add them up and we have 2The 2difference 2between 2me 2and 2you = 0 2(The difference between me and you) = 0 The difference between me and you = 0/2 The difference between me and you = 0 I never thought we were so similar |
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Morgaine Dinova
Active Carbon Unit
Join date: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 968
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10-28-2004 14:22
Ken, it isn't clear to me what variety of lag (rendering FPS, network ping, server load) is the largest contributor to your problems. Could you please post some information about your computer settup: OS, CPU, RAM, video card, and video drivers? Send us all your design details, and we'll fix SL lag for you. _____________________
-- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming
-- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements |
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Morgaine Dinova
Active Carbon Unit
Join date: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 968
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10-29-2004 06:32
I doubt that LL classes lag as a bug suitable for squishing in the current round of bug-fix work that Philip mentioned at the last two Town Halls and in his blog.
Although lag is certainly a bug from the point of view of player experience, it usually stems from design errors rather than coding errors. And designers don't like to think of their design errors as bugs ... a human failing.  _____________________
-- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming
-- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements |
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Jack Digeridoo
machinimaniac
Join date: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1,170
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10-29-2004 06:36
They should try playing on a 1.3GHz machine with an ATI and 300 ms ping and then they'll understand. I'm tempted to use my cam-corder to show them what the play experience is like.
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If you'll excuse me, it's, it's time to make the world safe for democracy.
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eltee Statosky
Luskie
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,258
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10-29-2004 06:42
heh i'm on a 2600+ athlon xp and i already am thinking of upgrading.. as its becoming a serious bottleneck to SL as my video card upgrade has more'n shown me now... what kind of game makes you suddenly feel like $3500 for that dual high end opteron setup might be a sound investment jesus... LL we need some attention to the rendering process before i end up living on the street, wheeling a $35000 workstation around tryin to find the best hotspot to login from
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wash, rinse, repeat
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Morgaine Dinova
Active Carbon Unit
Join date: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 968
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10-29-2004 09:15
They should try playing on a 1.3GHz machine with an ATI and 300 ms ping and then they'll understand.  You need to campaign for an early fix to the dreadful coupling of rendering and network on the same thread in the client, then. I have enough trouble already from the fanboys with just the very short list of improvements that I currently campaign for. I suspect that LL are doing most of their testing on local LANs plus a few well-connected broadband links in CA, so they probably don't see the really bad experience that customers on longer network paths are having. Latency is something that customers have extremely limited control over, since improving one's local 512kbps ADSL or cable link to 1Mbps will barely take off 5-10ms from the RTT. Ie. most of the latency is international, not local. This makes it imperative that LL removes the direct coupling between rendering and network access: when they are on separate threads then you can overlap the I/O wait times during long round trips with rendering, so the result is perceptually better despite RTT and bandwidth remaining the same. It's interesting that Philip asked how many non-US subscribers were present at the last Town Hall: about 25-30%, it turned out. He said that the straw poll was "helpful", whatever that means. Latency seems to have been the reason for the poll, as opposed to code internationalization say, since the previous question was about lag and he said "Well yes I'm sure some parts of the world are slow, I agree. " With a bit of luck, they have the render/network threading issue on the TO-DO list already, but someone ought to make sure. _____________________
-- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming
-- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements |
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Colin Linden
Failure of Profile Wit
Join date: 26 Aug 2003
Posts: 104
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10-29-2004 11:01
I'll make the observation that some "lag" may also be related to a router in Sprint's network in San Jose. Over the past few days when I've done traceroutes to help customers there have been times when packets are routed through the sprint backbone and one of those routers is dropping between 10-40% of it's data packets. Since we're not Sprint customers (but out ISP sometimes connects through them) there's not much more that we can do other than sending them a "hey folks you're router's dropping data" email which I did a few days ago.
Colin |
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eltee Statosky
Luskie
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,258
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10-29-2004 11:08
as far as within SL server lag... any info on old servers colin? (aka 2002/early 2003 hardware thats still floatin round (lower sims like sim16.agni.etc)... after a crash from a 450 series server that was runnin lusk, we ended up on sim16, and in the space of 5 minutes before/after with no in sim alterations it went from 1800 fps to 200... a second crash then moved us to a 150 series sim and we were back at 800 which is more managble... but those old sims really make a sim crash sometimes a heart-stopping excercise in russian roulette
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wash, rinse, repeat
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Morgaine Dinova
Active Carbon Unit
Join date: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 968
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10-29-2004 11:48
I'll make the observation that some "lag" may also be related to a router in Sprint's network in San Jose. Level3: CODE 9 so-3-0-0.mp1.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net (209.247.8.89) 224.670 ms 154.382 ms 154.428 msSavvis: CODE 7 kar1-ge-0-0-0.SanFranciscosfo.savvis.net (206.24.211.10) 197.576 ms 192.783 ms 191.861 msVerio: CODE 11 p4-2-0-0.a01.snfcca02.us.ra.verio.net (129.250.16.18) 75.523 ms 75.309 ms 75.259 msand Sprint: CODE 15 sl-gw31-stk-14-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.4.206) 70.558 ms 70.571 ms 70.567 msThat final router/interface complex <*bbnet*>.sfo.pnap.net terminating all paths is the last one with the common decency to provide traceroute information. How far beyond it are the LL grid servers?_____________________
-- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming
-- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements |
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Mark Linden
Funky Linden Monkey
Join date: 20 Nov 2002
Posts: 179
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10-29-2004 12:07
Not far: maybe 2 hops.
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Morgaine Dinova
Active Carbon Unit
Join date: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 968
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10-29-2004 12:51
Not far: maybe 2 hops. CODE $ traceroute sim69.agni.lindenlab.comTwo directly-connected Linux boxes tend to yield sub-300us RTTs even at an antique 10mbps, but I think some caution is needed in comparing traceroute versus ping times since they're not the same tool and there might be a constant offset. _____________________
-- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming
-- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements |
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Morgaine Dinova
Active Carbon Unit
Join date: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 968
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10-29-2004 14:22
Could someone on broadband in Silicon Valley give us a traceroute into sim69.agni.lindenlab.com too please, as a comparison?
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-- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming
-- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements |
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Azelda Garcia
Azelda Garcia
Join date: 3 Nov 2003
Posts: 819
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10-29-2004 15:20
Well, here's the opposite: a tracert from China:
Tracing route to sim69.agni.lindenlab.com [66.150.245.5] over a maximum of 30 hops: 1 1 ms <10 ms <10 ms 192.168.0.1 2 * 60 ms 5 ms 218.65.213.1 3 6 ms 5 ms 5 ms 61.139.204.145 4 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 61.139.204.65 5 6 ms 5 ms 6 ms 202.97.21.189 6 9 ms 9 ms 9 ms 202.97.21.129 7 18 ms 18 ms 18 ms 202.97.40.197 8 18 ms 19 ms 18 ms 202.97.33.150 9 205 ms 211 ms 205 ms 202.97.51.194 10 207 ms 209 ms 208 ms 202.97.49.5 11 209 ms 206 ms 207 ms 202.97.48.42 12 211 ms 211 ms 216 ms so4-0-0-622M.ar4.SFO1.gblx.net [67.17.68.81] 13 220 ms 205 ms * InterNAP-ITP2-Telco-Costs-SF.so-1-3-0.0.ar4.sfo1 .gblx.net [64.212.225.146] 14 249 ms 211 ms 205 ms border5.ge3-1-bbnet1.sfo.pnap.net [63.251.63.10] 15 217 ms 219 ms 217 ms sim69.agni.lindenlab.com [66.150.245.5] Trace complete. I assume that little jump in ping time from hop 8 to 9 is the national firewall. Note, normally I get a ping in SL of about 900-1500msec, but its 6am in the morning, so I guess everyone's asleep. Azelda _____________________
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Morgaine Dinova
Active Carbon Unit
Join date: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 968
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10-29-2004 15:27
Hehe, thanks Az.
The first thing that strikes me is the lack of domain names. I guess they aren't too fond of reverse DNS records in China .... 8 18 ms 19 ms 18 ms 202.97.33.150 9 205 ms 211 ms 205 ms 202.97.51.194 I assume that little jump in ping time from hop 8 to 9 is the national firewall. _____________________
-- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming
-- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements |
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Morgaine Dinova
Active Carbon Unit
Join date: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 968
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10-30-2004 05:56
Ping! Calling anyone in CA
F who has broadband and knows how to run traceroute. _____________________
-- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming
-- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements |
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Ryen Jade
This is a takeover!
Join date: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,329
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10-30-2004 09:09
1. screw you and your 56K
2.Screw you and your 56K 3.teleporting is fine, but agian, screw you and your 56K Also, the default avatar is a female, once the other clients recieve your slider information, then they see your actual avatar. _____________________
Between you, Ryen the twerp and Ardith, there's little to change my opinion here.. rather you have reinforced it each in your own ways IM A TWERP, IM A TWERP! Whats a twerp? |
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Haney Linden
Senior Member
Join date: 3 Oct 2002
Posts: 990
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10-30-2004 10:41
I encourage posters to the thread to avoid moving this toward personal exchanges. A reminder from the guidelines:
Flaming, Spamming, Trolling – Flaming (posting a message that is intended to incite anger or directly attack a person or persons), Spamming (multiple posts of the same topic or discussion), and Trolling (a post with an intentionally contrary opinion written with the intent of inciting or getting argumentative opinions) are strongly discouraged. If you think your post might be over-reactive, or that it might fall into one of these definitions, please reconsider posting. |
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Morgaine Dinova
Active Carbon Unit
Join date: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 968
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10-30-2004 14:24
Here are those parts of Philip's Town Halls a few days ago which mentioned lag/speed:
Yoshi Platini: Are you hitting bottlenecks on the Net itself, or are the lag issues at this point solely in LL's ability to generate the streams? Philip Linden: There are no bottlenecks on the net. Philip Linden: Most of the delays in things happening in SL are due to the servers struggling to get data ready to stream to clients, Philip Linden: or due to low FPS on the viewer (which makes everything lag) Philip Linden: Well yes I'm sure some parts of the world are slow, I agree. Philip Linden: Hey can I ask a quick survey question, BTW. Philip Linden: How many people here are not from the US? Just type 'me' ... Philip Linden: So maybe 25-30% of us. Philip Linden: OK that is helpful. Jeri Zuma: Q. for Phil: Lag.... that is the biggest single frustration... what will be done to attack it and to open up the possibility of large groups functioning well in a single sim? Philip Linden: Well there are a lot of things we are doing... Philip Linden: faster rendering of large groups. Philip Linden: faster server performance. Philip Linden: faster physics. Philip Linden: That problem is central... affects everything. Latency/RTT is almost entirely dependent on the intervening world network and not your local link, ie. easily 90-95% of it, so raising the bandwidth of your local broadband access will have almost no effect on your ping times unless your provider is right next door to LL's hosting site. Of course, in that situation your RTTs were already so low that you didn't need to upgrade anyway. I'm not sure whether Philip's reference to low FPS on the viewer as a reason for lag should be interpreted as meaning that they are considering decoupling the network/render threads. He probably asked for a straw poll on how many listeners were international for that reason though, since bandwidth isn't strongly dependent on distance, only RTT. _____________________
-- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming
-- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements |