Poo Pooed Questions Plea

I know that I am going to get severely slammed here on this post, but after reading yet another post where yet another someone was subtly criticized or not so criticized for their question or mode of doing things, I feel I have to get this out of my system.

When I had the substandard tools trying to learn to make clothes for SL, I was poo pooed when I asked questions. My product was deemed as not being good enough by those in the know. Okay, so I bought the uper duper tool...spent big buck because the old one was not good enough for those with seemingly years of experience. They are experienced...they should know more then I do right? They are mentors after all and seem to be respected on the forums...I mean look how long they have been here and how many posts to their names....they know what they are talking about right?

Egads, I am now trying to learn the uper duper tool and am now being told by those mentors that I look up to that I am not learning the tool the right way, or for the right reason, or the way they think I should be learning it, or the way they learned it. Wow! After spending all that money, those late night hours reading or watching tutorials, and scouring the web and the forums for advice or answers given previously, I found out I am not learning the right way. Go figure.

Hellloooo....mentors....we look up to, some of us are not graphic artists or whatever the nouveau riche term is these days, and frankly, we don't want to be. For some of us, this is our hobby...a fun hobby...ok...it use to be a fun hobby....we are not trying to compete with your talent or usurp your knowledge, we just want to learn for personal satisfaction. We just want a little advice. A little help is all. Oh, yeah, I learned something hobby wise and wow...now I can help out with the newsletter a work now cause of something I had fun trying to learn as a hobby.

Please don't make us dread to post a question asking for help. Please don't tell me the best way you think I should use my uber duper program...I am using it just fine for my needs. Please just help me learn by answering my question with no extraneous comments that I probably won't understand or read anyway especially if it can be perceived as picking at or castigating me in some way.

Personally, I have had some very nice helpful people answer some of my less then stellar (ok yeah a lot have been really stupid) questions and with their answers, have gone on to do a lot of things. But, some of the comments people make to or about others' questions...OMG...weren't you all taught if you can't say something nice....don't say anything? Geez, let the question go unanswered.

Okay..I am steeling myself...go ahead slam away at this post *cringes and tries to hide*

*hugs*

Not everyone who posts here are professional instructors. That could be the reason why some replies may come off as unhelpful.

These forums are all written word. You can't hear the tone of voice that was meant to go along with it, and you can't see the body language either. Sometimes a *blunt* sounding post to you, could also be perfectly sound, factual advice to another. That's something to always keep in mind when venturing here. Maybe if you re-read the same post a week later, you'll get something different out of it, I don't know.

There will always be different opinions on what programs work "better".
None of them will work any better, until you can't get your head around how to do, what you want to do. That all takes time, and loads of practice, and loads and loads and loads of mistakes on the way.

These forums are a great place to seek out a question that might have already been answered before, if I am ever stuck on anything, a quick search usually pulls up what I was looking for.

These forums are also a wonderful place to ask specific questions as well when you get really stuck. The more general the question, the less likely you're going to get a direct answer. Again, it all comes down to learning the program, it's not about SL at all.

I'm sorry that you've read something in here that's made you feel disheartened by it all, but we do try to help out as often as possible, the best way we know how.

For those who have offered their help, their guidance, their time and their resources... Give them some credit, a very big THANK YOU is deserved.

For those who "big-note" themselves, listen to the OP... it sometimes does more harm to your reputation than good.

*hugs again*

I feel your pain Morgaine (OMG.......that rhymed ).

Seriously, I do understand exactly where you are coming from. I've had run ins a few times when asking a simple (even stupid) question. I don't use that "uber duper" imaging program (can we call it Photoshop? ). I use that free one that is so freaking hard to learn (can we call that GIMP? ). I have learned enough about GIMP after a couple years that I can interpet most of the answers that are Photoshop specific so I guess the constant referring to GIMP as an open source program with a disasterous interface doesn't bother me anymore. I can do everything in GIMP that some of the "experts" here discribe using PS......but it took me a long time to learn how (Photoshop speak vs GIMP speak).

But, my biggest gripe still is that sometimes I can discribe a way to do something easier without using all the fancy layer masks for something someone wants.......say a simple transparent hole in an image to maybe put an other image in. You get all these long instructions on how to make a layer mask, erase all the black or white depending on what you want showing through. Two complicated sounding paragraphs when all I have to do it define the area I want cut out, add transparency to the image and cut. Presto....one hole with transparency. But, I've been castigated for telling someone how to do something that is NOT the proper way. If I were attending a formal class in some university going for a Graphics Artists degree.......I would deserve that scolding. I'm not though and neither was the questioner. It works, it's simple and no one, once the texture is made, can tell I did not do it the PROPER way.

And, yes, I do know how to make a layer mask. I also know the advantages. But sometimes it is just not necessary. Especially when you are trying to help someone who is not trying to learn the program completely.......just enough to make something they have in their head. The learning will come when the person wants to learn. The argument is often that one develops bad habits.......well, yeah but, if those bad habits get the job done, then whats the harm? I'm sure most who really enjoy making textures will eventually do as I did and jump in head first and start learning the PROPER way. Unlearning old habits is not hard.......in fact when I want to do something quick a dirty I still revert back to my "bad habits" simply because they are effective and fast.

So, ask your questions......some of us won't tell you that you need to do it "THE WAY"......the only way.

When it comes to complex programs like Photoshop or GIMP there's rarely ever an "only way" to do anything, but some ways will have advantages or disadvantages over others. When someone shows you a complex way to do something that could also be done more simply another way it's likely because the complex way is the most flexible and the least destructive in case you change your mind (like layer masks). You shouldn't be chastised for doing it whatever way you prefer, but using "best practices" can end up saving you a lot of grief down the road. Some things are just good habits to get into, even if they take a couple extra minutes.

Beware of evangelists for particular tools or software. Knowing what makes someone love a particular tool is great, but claims that X is the be all end all and leaves everything else in the dust is rarely true. Often it was true in the past and has become a sort of cultural meme, like "Macs are better for graphics than PCs". It may have been true in 1995, but it certainly isn't now, and lots of software is surrounded by similar memes - Photoshop and Maya to name two. They're both excellent powerful tools at the top of particular markets but these days it isn't really because they're so much better than competing tools (which they of course are in many ways, but aren't in others), they've just been at the top long enough to generate those kinds of memes. Some of the most amazing graphics work I've ever seen was made with the simplest of tools.

Right on, Chip. It's smart to learn many ways to do any task you come up against repeatedly, because no method or tool is right ALL the time. Some ways are better, of course (less expensive, more time-efficient, less destructive, whatever), so it pays to understand more than just which buttons to push, but you ought to feel free to use whatever works best for you.

I truly appreciate the "experts" in this forum, like you, who take the time to spell out more than the bare bones. That way, I can understand how a tool really works and can avoid blundering into dumb mistakes. I've made LOTS of them too. So, if an expert can take the time to explain why my way of doing a task is goofy, I'm all ears.

I'm not a graphic designer -- just a retiree who enjoys learning. I don't like cookbook solutions to problems.... I like understanding basic principles so I can make up my own solutions. I'm very glad there are experienced professionals on this forum to learn from.

Morgaine,

Just do what your heart desires, there are many more resources out there besides these forums! In-world groups may be better for help and to meet people who *really* want to help, share some knowledge and don't have their ____ up their ___.

Best wishes, and hope you find people in the same area you have interests in!

I have to agree with; Do what you can and love to do.
There is lot I don't know how to do, I don't have the means to get all those
expensive programs or classes or even better computer.
Only reason why I have Photoshop because it was gift if I hadn't gotten it as gift I probably would have kept using and struggling with the other free programs or older PSP I have.
I don't know how to do mask or tga alpha's, I can't figure out how to use the av previewer, or whole lot of things
mentioned here, I spent months on trying to do decent pair of male jockstraps
and still can't get right.
Yes sometimes it really gets to me but I do the best with what I have to work with
and just keep trying.
People tried to show me but I get stuck often and just often go back what I love
to do.
I don't know about the groups that do stuff like this in world, I never had much luck
ever finding a very helpful group personally.
Just do you what you want to do, practice, experiment and enjoy what you do
like doing.
It isn't about the tools you're using, it's about creating, practicing until you get to point
you're happy with what you've created at least for me.
I keep eye out for information I can apply and understand, let stuff go I don't understand
until I do understand, maybe year down the road with more practice it will make sense
or maybe it won't but I keep trying and eventually things have improved bit more for
me but still have whole more to learn.

Yes I have noticed that sometimes people here and in forums in general feel the need inflate themselves by poo pooing on some questions, allthough to be honset I would say this offical SL forum is pretty tame.

I hear you how it burns sometimes, but it is part of the web 2.0 forum mentality in general i think wherever you go. If you are asking a question then you just have to have a thick skin and realize that its not personal when you get jumped on. I think it comes from some people's insecurity and need to put others down to make themselves feel good, a sort of 'in the club' mentality that I have seen destroy several perfectly good forums. Moderation is important and if you feel you are being treated rudely then send a message to the moderators.

Besides, you have already gotten a response here from one of the most helpful people on these forums.. Chip!

Sometimes people get upset when the same questions get asked over and over again.. so if you want to get in the regulars' good books make sure you search the forums for your questions before asking them.. If you still have questions a good way to start off a post is with 'I have searched these forums top to bottom but still have some questions about ....' haha

There are no stupid questions alot of people say.. which IMO is only partly true, in this age of technology and internet it is very important to have a problem solving mentality, and there is a difference between an informed question and a no-clue question.

Also for many programs like you are talking about.. the SL forums may not the best place for getting your answers, nor from SL mentors. Consider the size of the user base for SL compared to Photoshop and its a sheer numbers game.. a forum specialising in photoshop help may be better for some questions..


-why

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're talking about, Morgaine, but I'll take a guess. It happens fairly often that someone will say, "I just got ABC Program, and I want to know how to do X with it," to which my answer will usually be "Don't put the cart before the horse. You're not ready for X yet. Learn the program itself first, and then you'll know what you need to know in order to do X."

That's not poo-poo'ing the question, not at all. In most cases, it's the only responsible answer. The disconnect tends to be that when people are brand new to this stuff, they don't yet know enough to understand what it is that they don't yet know. People tend to think there's a "how to do _____ in ten easy steps" kind of answer for everything. Most often, though, that's just not how it works.

It's a bit like learning a musical instrument. If you pick up a violin for the first time, walk into a teacher's studio, and say "Show me how to play the Mendelssohn Concerto," it wouldn't be unreasonable for the teacher to say "Wait a second, son. Do you even know how to tune that thing yet?"

Quite obviously, there can never be any such thing as "Learn to play Mendelssohn in 10 easy steps." Even if by some miracle you already had the requisite finger strength, dexterity, coordination, etc. required to play the violin because you're just that magically talented, and even if the teacher were to sit there and show you the exact sequence of finger movements, note by note by note, there still would be simply no way you'd be able to play the piece. It just can't be done until you've developed an understanding of how the violin (and music itself) works. And that can only come from starting at the beginning, the same way every violin student has done for at least the past three hundred years.

By the same token, a lot of the questions that novice digital artists ask are simply beyond their present level of understanding. When someone says something like "I've never used Photoshop before, and I have no experience whatsoever with texturing, but I want to know how to make convincing skin," the ONLY answer to that can be "Learn Photoshop first by doing 2D projects. Then learn the basics of texturing for 3D. Only after you've done that will you be able to understand any discussion we might have about skin."

I know that's never the answer the novice wants to hear. People usually want instant gratification. But just as no one would ever expect to be able to pick up a RL brush and paint the Mona Lisa with no prior training and no practice, nobody should expect to do much with digital tools either until they've put in the requisite time to learn what they're doing. There's absolutely no way around that, nor should there be.

I hate to say it as bluntly as I'm about to, but really, if someone truly is too impatient to learn the right way, they've got no business wanting to be an artist, be it digital or otherwise. The only reason the mentors you so respect got to the level they're at in the first place is because they DID take the time to learn one step at a time, just like they're telling you to do now. Nobody, absolutely nobody, can get from point A to point Z without hitting every point in between.

So when someone says "Slow down. You're not ready for that yet. You first need to do this, this, and this, before you can even think about that," listen to them. You might not understand (yet) why you should, but that's exactly the point. If you're not even aware yet of what it is you don't know, embrace the wisdom of those who are.

Wax-on, wax-off, paint fence, paint house. Yes, there's good reason for all of it.

Morgaine....on the Poo Pooing.....there are Doers and there are Talkers.

The Doers are too busy Doing to Talk. The Talkers are too busy Talking to DO. A Majority of the Talkers will become Poo Pooers, because they have nothing else to DO.

The Doers are the ones you need to get your advice from. But they will be Doing. Now you will get some handy advice here, from Doers who took time out of their day to Talk a tad, and didn't have time to waste on Poo Pooing. Pay attention to those.

Now, some Doers will not bother to come here, to avoid the Talkers' Poo Pooing....but I have found that they will give you help inworld, if you are respectful of their time they need to spend DOING, and you also need to return the favor to them, somehow. I have hooked up with a few of those, that have been helpful beyond words....and I suggest you connect with one or two, but do be aware that they need to spend time DOING.

Good Luck with that. And please do not waste your time reading the Non-Doer Talkers' Poo Pooing on how I Capitalized Too Many Words, and made it difficult for them to read, thus cutting into their Poo Pooing Time.

Chosen, that is great analogy.
I have spent years working on 2d illusions, took me years to figure out how to do what
I have before I really understood 3D but still I have long ways to go.
It doesn't require any specific high end art program to do things like this.
I have one friend who does really cool, detailed cartoons with nothing but older version of Mircosoft paint and most of her textures.
So program you use isn't always requirement.
It is the ability to continue learning how to improve one's drawing skills and art program you can afford to use for the effects you want.

Thank you all for posting your replies. They are sincerely appreciated. Nothing was directed at anyone person but merely the general atmosphere that seems to waft around some of the posts I have read. It is just disheartening at times to hear some of the responses.

Personally, *winks* I am learning Photoshop the hard way...and learning bad habits...and not learning the "why" of the things.

/me just wants into the thread that uses "poo" twice on the subject line.

That's how most people learn, myself included. Any "best practices" that I use now are the result of learning the hard way why some things are good ideas. Sometimes being told the stove is hot isn't enough. You have to put your hand on the burner yourself.

I totally agree with what both Chosen and Chip said. And I'd like to add another endorsement for the Gimp or other inexpensive programs.

As a novice, you need a student-grade instrument. You could use a Fender Stratocaster or a Stradivarius violin, but you'll still make student noises on it. (Okay, maybe particularly nice student noises, but student noises.)

So as a novice, the Gimp is perfectly good. Heck, some professionals prefer the Gimp to Photoshop. (Just as some prefer Photoshop to the Gimp.)

It's time to buy Photoshop when you're staring at a project and thinking 'I really need X filter, and I know Photoshop has it, but the Gimp just doesn't have anything to emulate the effect'. And you're thinking that because you know what the filter is and what it does, not because you're looking at a tutorial that claims you need the filter.

By that stage, though, you certainly wouldn't need ME telling you what tool to use!