Macromedia Fireworks & TGA

Greetings people,

So, I've been using Macromedia Fireworks for quite a while, big fan of Macromedia software, well not all of it, everyone makes mistakes (Director). I wanted to start bring some more of my 2D stuff in world, apparently Second Life doesn't support PNG or TIFF for image importation with alpha support, which is a pity.

So my question is two-fold. What level of alpha support does SL have with the image importation, specifically, can you make an alpha gradient and have SL support it? The second part of my question is, what are some good, and preferably free image converters that work with TGA alpha in a way SL understands, my current lot does not seem to appease the mighty Linden texture god.

(I'd post some picks of stuff I had in mind, but FTP on my server is acting up atm)

What file converters are you using that don't work?

What are you exporting or saving your Fireworks files as?

Are you on Windows or Mac?

If you are on Windows, have you tried the free program IrfanView?

( www.irfanview.com )

It reads PNG files and it can export a TGA file. And a lot more.

If it does work as you want, it should be able to batch convert them.

SL does support gradients in alpha channels, degrees of transparency, if that is what you meant.

32 Bit PNG



Windows



Yes, either I am doing something wrong or it does not support alpha, as the alpha is lost in the conversion.



Yes, that is what I meant, thank you.

...

I rather wonder if there are any old Photoshop plugins out there that can output in TGA, as I could use that to output to TGA directly then...

Well, still hoping for some answers, so here is one big, nasty, ....hairy... BUMP!

If you have Photoshop, that would be way better to work in than Fireworks.

Probably it's changed a lot, but the last time I used Fireworks it was a web tool optimised for the export of jpegs and other lossy graphics. Most Macromedia tools are also more for vector graphics or production print graphics or again, web graphics whereas making textures for games is all about painting pixels and simple bitmaps.

You need to use a good basic paint program like PaintShop pro (or Photoshop if you can afford it) and steer away from thinking in terms of vectors, shapes and compression ratios. Even a small shareware application would be okay as the biggest bitmap you will make is only 512 by 512 pixels.

Any basic paint program should export TGA as its the baseline standard for a plain bitmap with alpha channel, that's why SL and most games use it as its the most basic format available for the job.

I *think* (not sure cause I am on a Mac) that even MS Paint will export a TGA.

I understand that the GIMP will do what you need. I'm not sure if it will convert files; but you can certainly do work for SL in it. Many people here do, although I'm not one of them. Still, it's free, so it's probably worth checking out.

The Gimp is overkill for this task, and it loads up slowly. but it does appear to work.

I created a file in Fireworks with a transparent background, saved it, opened it in Gimp, and saved it as a TGA file, uploaded into SL, and it did have a transparent background.

The Gimp is overkill, but it does work, and would probably be able to give you other service as well.

I found a simple application for converting PNG files with transparency into TGA files with alpha channel transparency and it worked after a fashion. There does see to be some fringe mal-effect, but that might not occur with files made your way in Fireworks instead of the way I made mine.

Sigh, I just realized that my test file consisted of two gray rectangles. I really don't need any more gray rectangles.

The PNG to TGA converter is at
http://forums.joeuser.com/Forums.aspx?ForumID=157&AID=74756

be carefull with png it has a lot of options for saving it ,basicly if you can turn everything off, and it will produce a loosless image

ImageMagick is great for quickly converting one or more files between formats, resizing them and so on.

http://www.imagemagick.org/script/index.php

I do know Photoshop actually, I learned it a year or so before I touched Fireworks. I prefer the Macromedia tool, its not as advanced as Photoshop for Raster work, but I find the tight integration it has of Raster and Vector tools to be quite useful. Even Photoshop is heading in this direction now, what with the last two versions trying, poorly, to integrate vector tools.

So, thank you, but I think I will ignore this suggestion, efficiency is good, it does not have to mean things are less than they could be. you just have to know what you are doing,



Thanks Ordinal, but I don't really feel like installing Perl on computer just for that.



Yes, PNG is pretty powerful; you can make incredible small files with it if you know what tools to use. I think I will be fine though, been using it for years.



Oh, this is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. Thank a bunch.

I tried another other file converter, XnView, somewhat like IrfanViw, but it seemed to do the same thing that IrfanViw does. I am surprised Irfanview doesn't deal with this properly, or doesn't have a plug-in that does.

With regard to Gimp - it might seem a bit silly to have such a big multi-featured program and use it just to convert Fireworks files - but if it works, and it' s free, and you have the ram and the hard disk space, there's nothing wrong with doing that.

We used to use a copy of CorelDraw, including the Corel Photopaint program, at work, purely for converting files to and from various formats that customers gave us or wanted when our sign program couldn't.

Hee Hee - in principal, one could take the Gimp source code and extract the file conversion routines and make a converter that wouldn't take so long to load.

Hehe, that could be a fun project Suez, call it, the Gimper or something.

I have Fireworks and IrfanView.

I have saved an image as PNG8 with Alpha Transparency and PNG32, which reveals a transparent background.

I open the file in IrfanView, which shows the background as black (although I can see the edges of the actual image against the black, denoting where the image ends and the transparency should begin).

I save the file from IrfanView as a TGA.

I upload said TGA image to SL and it shows a black background.

Does anyone know what I am doing wrong? And please, don't tell me to go buy Photoshop -- I'd like to work with the the tools at my disposal. I know the next Adobe incarnation is a combination of Fireworks and Photoshop (which I WILL buy), but it's not released yet.

Thanks, all.

I've never used IrfanView, so I'm afraid I can't give you specific instructions, but what I can tell you is that simply converting the file format is not enough. You have to create an alpha channel for the image, or it won't have transparency in SL. If Irfanview has tools to do this, then you'll be good to go, but since its emphaisis seems to be on viewing images as opposed to creating them, I tend to doubt that it does.

For the basic concepts behind how alpha channels work, read the transparency guide at the top of this forum. Again, TGA files don't automatically have them; if you want one, you have to put it there deliberately.


Unfortunately the tools at your disposal are not up to the task. Fireworks is a web graphics program. It's just not meant for this sort of thing. If you want to do texturing for 3D, then you're going to need software that is designed with that purpose in mind. Fireworks and IrfanView don't fit that description. Sorry, I know that's not what you wanted to hear.



I'm not sure where you're getting "combination of Fireworks and Photoshop". It's true that certain versions of the Creative Suite 3 package (Web Premium, Web Standard, and Master Collection) will include both programs, but there's not going to be a single program that combines the two.

It seems they've added some pretty cool integration capabilities between the two for CS3, but Photoshop and Fireworks are still very separate individual programs. Buying one will not give you the other.

It seems they have finally merged ImageReady into Photoshop for CS3, instead of continuing to have ImageReady be a standalone program, which it really never should have been in the first place. Like Fireworks, ImageReady is a web graphics application, so is that perhaps what you were thinking of?

If you do have Photoshop, Fireworks stuff is easypeasy to get nice and transparent.

Do the stuff in fireworks, then export to photoshop, then save to TGA.

To get rid of the halo on hard edges: In photoshop, go to the Alpha channel and select all the black. Expand your mask by one pixel, then paint everything black again, which will fill in the edges, where the white halo-ing happens.

PSP, in my experience, will convert to TGA, but I've found it MUCH more difficult to get rid of the halo. If that's not a problem, the process is the same. Export to PSD from Fireworks and open in PSP, then save as TGA.

Thanks very much for that. I read the Alpha transparency info but found it lacking where it relates to Fireworks despite my best efforts.




Oh, that's what that's all about! I'd thought they were combining. Maybe I'll give photoshop another try then when this all emerges and depending on feedback. I'm not fond of the way photoshop bloats file sizes unnecessarily and frankly it's too mouse intensive (I have chronic RSI, so must minimize hands on mouse and keyboard).

Insofar as SL projects go involving this level of detail for myself, I think I'll just quit while I'm ahead. I just don't have the hands for it so for anything I really need I'll hire someone. Thanks though!!! I appreciate the feedback.

Yeah, unfortunately, as I said, Fireworks just isn't meant for this sort of thing. The general knowledge in that guide is valuable, but you won't be able to apply it to Fireworks directly.


I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. If you're talking about PSD's then yes, they can get rather large, but I wouldn't call it "unnecessary". PSD's support an unlimited number of channels and layers. Every time you add one, you're putting the equivalent of a whole other image into the file. That "necessarily" adds up quickly. Also, there's a great deal of procedural effects data that PSD's can include, which can add a lot to the file size. Again, though you can't really call any of that "unnecessary". If you use those procedures, then you need them to be saved.

As for other file formats (like TGA), Photoshop makes them the same size as any other program would. For example, a 1024x1024 TGA will always be exactly 3MB (no alpha channel) or exactly 4MB (with alpha channel), whether it's made in Photoshop or any other program. Similar mathematical constants apply to all formats (although the specifics obviously change from format to format). Photoshop has no power to alter that in any way.


While as a professional in this field, I certainly appreciate it when someone says they're willing to hire, I'd encourage you not to quit. The last thing I wanted to do was discourage you.

I don't pretend to know the extent of your RSI issues, but I'm not without my share of them myself, so I can relate. If I type on a standard keyboard for more than a minute or so, my left wrist feels like it's on fire the rest of the day. The Goldtouch adjustable keyboard was an instant lifesaver for me in that regard. I can type all day on it with no problems whatsoever.

You may also want to check out the Evoluent Vertical Mouse. I've never used it myself, but it's an awfully good idea. I can't imagine why it took 3 or 4 decades of mouse development for someone to say "Hey, that hurts being all sideways like that. How about we turn it upright like it's supposed to be so it doesn't hurt?".

You'll also find that using a Wacom drawing tablet makes a huge difference. Not only does it help eliminate RSI issues, it vastly improves the quality and speed of your work. Once you see what a difference pressure sensitivity makes, you'll never go back.

Beyond that, I've found that investing in a proper chair, and an articulating keyboard trya are probably the two most important things you can do. Having your chair's arms and your keyboard tray at the right height for your particular body can mean the difference between a lifetime of pain or not.

In all things, I've found that adjustability is key. You want to be able to change the angles of everything throughout the day, so that that repetitive stress isn't quite so repetitive. It's doing the exact same thing over and over again that causes the problem in the first place. By tinkering with adjustments on all your devices and your chair throughout the day, your body benefits from experiencing a range of positions, rather than being stuck in just one all the time.

Unfortunately, these things cost money. There's no good way around that. I was lucky enough to find my $160 keyboard arm on eBay for $10, so you can catch a break sometimes, but that's obviously not the norm. I had to spend $700 to get a chair that works for me (I'm tall, so most chair arms, even adjustable ones, are way too low for me, and I've got back problems in addition to afore mentioned wrist problem). All in all, I think I'm using about $2000 worth of ergonomics just to be able to sit here and write this post. When you have to use computer all day every day though, no amount of money is too much if it makes the pain go away.

Anyway, back to your alpha channel issue, if you don't want to buy Photoshop, perhaps you should try one of the freebies that are available, such as GIMP or Paint.Net. I'm not a huge fan of GIMP since I hate its interface, but it is very powerful. Paint.Net looks quite good, and most people say positive things about it, but I've never actually used it myself. You'll have some learning to do for either one, but you should be able

Didn't read all the post skimmed it but since you have fireworks mabe you have
freehand (another fine macromedia product )thats the one I use to convert my alpha bmp's and picture bmp's to 32 tga's
you can use gradients in the alpha channel. I just slide it to the background and select both export to tga first checkmark the selected objects only thing and hit setup . That gets you to the more button where you can select 32 bit tga. but irfan view is great too didn't relize that exported as 32 bit will have to try that. oh I'm using freehand mx.

CHOSEN:

I'm sorry if I sounded like I was coming down on photoshop. I truly do. I've just found over the years that Fireworks is a little more "idiot proof" than photoshop LOL. I've seen people take the same image as myself, "tweak" it in Photoshop and produce a massive and not very clear file, while Fireworks "tweaks" at my hand has produced smaller file sizes and a cleaner image. BUT, Photoshop in the hands of diligent individuals or Pros is much better

I digress. Oh no, you didn't discourage me. I'm just having a "bad pain day", as I think you can relate, and getting tired of trying to suss it all out. I use Dragon NaturallySpeaking to control my computer and have made some great commands for use in Fireworks. I also use a trackball and pen tablet (they are so awesome, yes?) when I need to mouse. A conventional mouse is death for me.

Thanks for the other suggestions too -- I'll check those out as well! You rock! Thanks for taking the time. Sorry, again, to be a bit of a downer


RACERX:

Freehand! I'd forgotten about that. I so seldom use it and when I switched to my new PC last weekend I forgot to install it (as you know, it wasn't included in the latest Studio 8 package). Thanks!

LL

Yay for Freehand MX! That was so easy! *bangs head*

Thanks, all!

I just stopped using macromedia well "expanded" my repertoire I guess to include adobe photoshop Pro

for PNG with transparent background I imported it into gimp added a transparent alpha channel there and converted it to TGA

for jpeg (which i often use for signs) I simply used the highest quality settings for JPEG and imported in SL as a jpeg

Tiff you can do the same thing you can import into gimp and convert it to a tga. I only ever did this if i needed a transparent layer otherwise I would convert to jpeg (unless it was clothes I always added the transparent layer and alpha channel in gimp)

its a bit clunky but that is how you do it if you are using fireworks which I have been doing for the last year (only just stopped a month ago or so..)

I still use fireworks for some stuff but not things like clothing etc in SL

i have the entire macromedia line and actualy disliked adobe for a long time their web site stuff kinda made big sucking noises and since the purpose of me using software was mostly for web work I used macromedia

However for photo stuff I am really liking the adobe photoshop cs2 package I bought. I still hate their web development tools but I like the photoshop although I still use fireworks heavily for somethings as its actualy better at it then adobe , but for SL adobe is probably best

hope that helps

(still ended up upgrading my fireworks and stuff though.. )

p.s. yes I used freehand as well (actualy still do ... in fact well i use the entier macromedia package still plus the photoshop i'm wierd hehe)