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Getting my feet wet...

hark Sideshow
Registered User
Join date: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 20
08-29-2008 17:46
Hello to all, I'm brand new to Second Life and only minutes ago downloaded and logged in to this world for the first time. My poor old computer is not really up to spec, unfortunately - and a better PC is an obvious priority in order to enjoy anything much more than a slideshow. Don't worry, I'm not here to cry in my beer about inferior hardware, I am very curious about the possibilities of developing for Second Life. I am a flight simulator fan and have gotten decent at 3D modeling and texturing fantasy aircraft and scenery for Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004. Now I'm thinking that it may be a ton of fun, and possibly even profitable to learn how to create objects, textures, etc for Second Life. Shortly I will be diving into the 'research' side of this new world in order to orient myself to the whole set of possibilities that SL may offer, both recreational and commercial.

I do not come to these forums with a selfish/self serving first post looking only for help though...I may ultimately have a chance to become a respected member of this forum by offering insight and help of my own regarding modeling and texturing, animating, etc.

I have several early questions regarding the SL way of developing ...and admit that this is a tentative first step, trying to coax easy answers out of folks in a forum setting. Trust me, I will educate myself as I dive into the possibilities with SL. Communicating in a forum setting has gone a long way though in furthering my developing skills over the last two years with flight sim stuff, and I always 'pay it forward' to the best of my abilities.

Here are my questions then...any response and early hand-holding will be greatly appreciated.

1) Firstly, when 3D modeling for second life are you able to import meshes from another 3D program or are you forced to learn and use a proprietary SL 3D modeling program? (And if you need to have your object in a SL 3d program, can it come from another app first...and in what file format?

2) When texturing, what format is used for the final applicable texture?

Well, that's a few good questions for now...think I'll go and wade in a bit deeper myself and see what info's out there. Hope to talk soon.
Chosen Few
Alpha Channel Slave
Join date: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 7,496
08-29-2008 18:10
Welcome to SL, and to the forums, Hark. I hope you're able to upgrade your hardware soon, so you can participate more fully.


From: hark Sideshow
1) Firstly, when 3D modeling for second life are you able to import meshes from another 3D program or are you forced to learn and use a proprietary SL 3D modeling program? (And if you need to have your object in a SL 3d program, can it come from another app first...and in what file format?

99% of the geometry you see in SL was created directly in-world. For the most part, SL does not use the kind of surface modeling you're used to from your previous 3D endeavors. It utilizes a proprietary system of parametric solid primitives, which we call prims. There is a small handful of resident-created plugins for third party modeling programs such as Blender, Maya, Max, etc., which enable creation of SL prim style models, which can then be auto-replicated in SL via script, but for the most part, it's all done in-world.

Direct importation of meshes is not possible. However, there is a relatively new, fairly unique surface model type in SL, called sculpted prims (sculpties), which is somewhat close to what you're used to. There are some rather extreme restrictions on how sculpties have to be constructed, though, so don't expect to be able to use them right away. Also, don't expect them to be a universal solution for all your building needs. They're meant to be used in concert with regular prims, not as replacements for them, and because they are, by their very nature, polygon-heavy, they must be used somewhat sparingly. You can learn all about sculpties on the SL wiki, http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Sculpted_Prims .

I would not recommend you attempt sculpties yet, no matter how much outside experience you already have. Master the regular prim system first. Then move on to adding sculpties into the mix. SL has many unique quirks, which you'll need to discover as you go. Trying to use sculpties too soon would greatly confuse the issue. Take it one step at a time. The prim system is enough of a handful to tackle first.

Since you've got prior 3D experience, you'll probably spend your first few weeks cursing at the prim system. Don't fret; it's far more powerful, and much less clunky than it seems in the beginning, once you've had some time to get used to it. Eventually, as you practice, you'll learn to "think in prims", and you'll end up a much better modeler, both inside SL and out, as a result. SL forces you to learn to do more with less, which is fantastic mental exercise. Take it from one who does 3D for a living; SL does a modeler good. Try to keep that in mind, as you undoubtedly will be frustrated at the start.

From: hark Sideshow
2) When texturing, what format is used for the final applicable texture?

SL can import TGA, PNG, JPEG, and BMP images. See the sticky on file formats at the top of this forum for more information. There's a lot of need-to-know stuff in there.
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hark Sideshow
Registered User
Join date: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 20
08-29-2008 18:47
Thank you so much for the prompt and comprehensive reply. I'm actually a little embarrassed...after my first post I went to some video tutorials and began my education...should have realized that the info was all at my fingertips all along. Guess I'm just used to searching all over the web for tidbits as I needed to do for the flight sim stuff I play with.
Excellent - so much info available...time to dive into the pool! I will certainly take your advice regarding 'sculpties' and get well aquainted (sp) with prims and texturing first!

I am quite used to going as low-poly as possible to keep framerates up in simulated environments, and look forward to kicking the heck out of as few prims as possible and still getting the desired end result. Hmmm...come to think of it I'm also used to getting as much detail in as possible using textures, and have gotten good at illusion to save polys. (Or prims in this case.)

Wow, this sure is a whole new world...this is going to be fun....heck, ever since I dove into simming and 3D modeling I don't even watch T.V. anymore! Who has time for force-fed crap when there are 5 projects to finish, 10 tutorials to read, and tests and experiments on the next 5 projects to start, LOL!

Looks like for now my best help to the SL development community will be texture creation sort of stuff, as now I feel like a noob all over again regarding the actual object creation and manipulation. (Until I get good at the rest of the SL 3D stuff.)

Noticed right away with a few tutorials that you are quite right in promoting the 'power of the prims' as I was pretty impressed with the ease in which you can make them flexible and reactive...holy moly...and all the while you can be creating and manipulating in-world. That's a buzz, and I thank you again for your response...already feels like a homey place thanks to you. 'Til next time.
Dekka Raymaker
thinking very hard
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,898
08-29-2008 19:37
Hi Hark, if your good with texturing your off to a flying start, texturing can make or break a build and of course very good texturing can save you using more prims than necessary. I have spent a year just learning to use prims and understand how they work and I have hardly ever used sculpties in builds, I really try to avoid them.

I think I'm pretty quick with prim building now, so I find that probably 75% of my time is spent texturing then, I also like to use my own too.

Check out the Beta Grid download, its a snapshot of the main grid and you can upload textures to check them out at no cost to yourself, until of course you upload them to the main grid. However, because it is a snapshot it is likely you will not be included when the last one was taken, so you will have to wait for it to be updated.
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hark Sideshow
Registered User
Join date: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 20
08-30-2008 03:35
Hi there Dekka, nice to hear from you. That was one of the first things I realized when diving into developing - the texturing certainly can be the 'make or break' touch for your creations. Fortunately, I'm an 'artsy-fartsy type and enjoyed learning image manipulation (still just seem to be scratching the surface after 2 years).
There is a lot to this 'developing for a virtual world' stuff, but I figure folks like us will never get Alzheimer's - we'll all be wracking our brains at 90 years old, coming up with the next sexy 3D model for something or other, using all our mysterious trickery to enhance environments for all. Glad to hear you enjoy the craft, and nice to be among interesting artists.
hark Sideshow
Registered User
Join date: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 20
08-31-2008 06:40
Hmmmm...I just realized that in order to even upload one of your own textures you are required to spend money. $10 USD to get a custom texture into the mix? Not sure yet what I think about that.
If any kind soul would answer another noob question (or three) it would be greatly appreciated. (I've been researching SL's development stuff, but am just skimming the surface so far, and there are a few things that aren't clear yet. Here's my queries to anyone out there who is wise to the whole 'developer's' side of things here.)

1) Say I think that the community might enjoy yet another unique aircraft, for example; If I use the provided textures for most of the model but end up actually spending some of my real-world, hard-earned cash on a custom, costly, uploaded texture or two for said vehicle, am I able to use my paid for, uploaded texture on another item that I want to build...a totally separate item - without having to fork over to re-use?

2) I seem to have gathered that the large variety of items available for sale in SL include...simply the textures themselves. Might there be an interest from the community in custom bitmaps that would be useful?

3) Is there an easy way to actually view the 'success' of other vendors in SL, for example if I am shopping and think that I could produce an item similar to one I see, can I see how well the item is selling for that person... in number of sales?

Thanks for any responses...I am quite intrigued by the possible combination of artistic expression, entertaining feedback, and possibly profit within the SL community.

I have a ton of reading and research to do, and will likely be answering my own questions as I tumble into the realm of possibilities that SL offers, and am aware I can make good use of the database of knowledge offered just in these forums alone, but certainly appreciate any hand-holding and guidance coming in a more personal way as answers to any of my questions. Hope to talk soon.
Rolig Loon
Not as dumb as I look
Join date: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2,482
08-31-2008 08:08
True, it does cost L$10 to upload a texture to SL. Remember, though, that the exchange rate is roughly L$100 = $0.38 USD, so your L$10 is less than 4 cents. Yeah, I know it can add up. I have spent thousands of L$ uploading textures. Still, those thousands amount to peanuts in "real" money.

There are some ways to save, of course. First, if it's a clothing texture you can do all of your tedious seam matching and wrinkle tweaking with a preview like Johan's and avoid uploading to SL for all the trial fittings. Second,when you upload a texture you always get to see it in a low-grade preview window first. If it looks really clunky or if you suddenly realize that you forgot to turn off some layer, you can abort before paying the L$10 to complete the upload. Third, you can actually do a lot of work on the beta grid, which doesn't charge an upload fee. Regardless of the L$-saving shortcuts you use, in the end an uploaded texture is there for all time -- or at least until you delete it accidentally.

Now, as far as texture merchandizing is concerned...... there are some very successful texture businesses in SL. Several of the best designers frequent this forum and have posted questions/comments/complaints you can find with a diligent search.

Piracy is a VERY common complaint. If you are going into business yourself, be aware that it is virtually impossible to sell a texture that won't eventually be ripped off by someone. If a texture is going to be useful for builders/designers, it has to be sold with full (copy/mod/transfer) permissions. Otherwise, the buyer finds that his/her own creations have to be sold with restrictions that limit sales.

Once you buy a texture, or once someone buys a texture from you, whoever holds the texture has all the permissions that come with it. There are no further "royalties." If you have a lovely texture that you bought from another designer, you may use it as many times as you wish and in as many creations as you want. The ONLY thing that you may not do is resell it as if it were your own created texture. This is an almost-unenforcible restriction, but a very important moral and legal one.

Watermarking and other tactics deter casual theft, but barely slow down the determined pirate. My personal solution, as a designer and builder, is to create most of my own textures. I buy an occasional VERY nice one from a reputable dealer, but that's it. Frankly, I don't understand how the good texture designers make L$ off of people like me. ;)

Peeking into the innards of someone else's business in SL is no easier than in RL, so I don't know what to tell you about that end of your market research. We all keep spreadsheets to analyze our own sales patterns, of course, but I don't imagine you will find many people willing to open their books .... especially to a talented competitor. :)
Chosen Few
Alpha Channel Slave
Join date: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 7,496
08-31-2008 08:29
From: hark Sideshow
Hmmmm...I just realized that in order to even upload one of your own textures you are required to spend money. $10 USD to get a custom texture into the mix? Not sure yet what I think about that.

It's not 10 US dollars. It's 10 Linden Dollars. Any time you see an L before a dollar sign, as in "L$10", it means Linden dollars, the in-world currency.

The real world value of L$ fluctuates, just like anything else, but it tends to hover around L$250 = US$1. So L$10 equals approximately 4 cents.



From: hark Sideshow
1) Say I think that the community might enjoy yet another unique aircraft, for example; If I use the provided textures for most of the model but end up actually spending some of my real-world, hard-earned cash on a custom, costly, uploaded texture or two for said vehicle, am I able to use my paid for, uploaded texture on another item that I want to build...a totally separate item - without having to fork over to re-use?

Once you upload a texture, it appears in your inventory as a stand-alone item. You can apply it to as many models as you want, or to no models at all. It's yours, and you can do with it as you please.

But again, it's not exactly "costly". Remember, Linden Dollars are micro-currency.

From: hark Sideshow
2) I seem to have gathered that the large variety of items available for sale in SL include...simply the textures themselves. Might there be an interest from the community in custom bitmaps that would be useful?

Lots of texture artists sell textures in-world, so the answer is yes. If you want to open a texture shop, go right ahead.


From: hark Sideshow
3) Is there an easy way to actually view the 'success' of other vendors in SL, for example if I am shopping and think that I could produce an item similar to one I see, can I see how well the item is selling for that person... in number of sales?

Nope. Just like you couldn't walk into a RL store and expect to see their books (without a search warrant), you can't expect to be able to dig into anyone's sales records in SL either. Even if it were technically feasible, it would be a serious breach of privacy. If you want to know how popular an item is, ask around, watch the trends, talk to the people who sell them, talk to the people who buy them. In other words, do honest to goodness market research.

The bottom line, though, is this. If you make things that are good-looking and interesting, people will buy them. There are millions of people in SL, and they're all here for the same basic reason (among others), entertainment. There's more than enough market for anything you want to sell that people might like. And if an item turns out not to be a big seller, who cares? It's not like you've got a RL brick & mortar store where every item on every shelf is a calculated risk, which costs you more and more money the longer it sits unsold. All your items in SL are digital, and cost nothing to keep on-hand. You could have one item in your store or a million items, and your day to day operating costs would be exactly the same.

The only cost involved is at the point of production, which is a one-time thing. Once something has been produced, there are no further ongoing costs to keep it around.
_____________________
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Land now available for rent in Indigo. Low rates. Quiet, low-lag mainland sim with good neighbors. IM me in-world if you're interested.
Malia Writer
Unemployed in paradise
Join date: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 2,026
08-31-2008 08:40
Off Topic - to the OP:

hark, you posted a question about shopping but that forum is no reply, and you don't have private messages enabled.

I'm not sure about the shopping window you saw in world but if you like shopping online I suggest SL Exchange or OnRez, these are SL shopping websites where you can search for things and either buy them there or find the creator's shop in world, whichever you prefer.
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hark Sideshow
Registered User
Join date: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 20
08-31-2008 10:50
Thanks so much for the answers folks....clears a few things up, and your other points are well taken...thanks again for the responses, very helpful.