Texture Problems - 1024 resolution Textures.

I'm starting this Thread to seek some sort of response from the lindens on this subject, others are welcome to respond and express their findings.

For months now, since a change was made that was supposed to improve SL's handling of textures, textures that are of a resolution higher than 512 have had issues when it applies to clothing.

This does NOT apply to textures attached to objects. It only applies to textures placed upon clothing.

Clothing using a 1024 texture has problems loading. Often, it doesn't load at all, remaining unrez'd indefinitely. This can be fixed by removing the texture and replacing it, however, even then, the article of clothing will take an unnecessary amount of time to load. If you replace the 1024 texture with a 512 version, although it doesn't look nearly as good, it will load fine. When 1024 resolution textures actually do load, they load as a 512 texture.

Now, this is not something that is noticed server side. If you use the Texture Console, the server shows it as a 1024 texture. However, visually, it's obvious that it's loaded as a 512 texture. Put a 1024 textured article of clothing beside a 512 version they look identical. This was not the case before one of the updates that was done.

Just going by the debug tools that are available, I have to assume that the problem is the SL client, not the servers themselves. But all the load problems are likely due to this change that was designed to 'speed' up the load times, but has instead, completely slowed them down, by making 1024 textures (Or anything higher than 512 really) load extremely slowly, or sometimes not at all.

I have done test after test with other people, I've logged bug reports, I've done what I can to try and get this issue resolved and help isolate the problem, but this has been ongoing now for over 2 months.

As someone who designs high resolution detailed clothing, this is extremely frustrating for me. That having been said, I'm looking to help resolve this issue. If any Linden wants to look into this issue, I'm more than willing to help where I can. Send textures, show the differences ... etc etc.

I'd like to see this problem resolved. Even if it means that textures only load as 512 textures regardless of the textures resolution. So long as they actually load.

Can you actually see any difference between 512x512 clothing textures and 1024x1024 textures? Given the deformation done by the dressing algorithm, I would be astounded if you could.

I'm not sure I'm reading your concern correctly, but if it is that 1024 pixel clothing textures are not being loaded, I might call that a "feature" even if an unintentional one. For if my guess above is correct, you are asking SL to send 4 times the texture data that will be lost once baked anyway.

I'm picturing a shirt template at 1024 pixels wide, which would make the chest roughly 400 pixels wide. Running SL at 1024x768, you'd have to have that shirt occupy about half of the screen to see the detail you seem to be shooting for. I don't think players look quite that closely under most circumstances.

I think the workaround is implicit in your question though: downsample the textures to 512x512 before loading them on clothing. Don't underestimate the power of bicubic reduction and SLs trilinear filtering to preserve detail.

Anything over 512x512 for skins and clothing is overkill and just creates unnecessary lag. I work at 1024 but always resize to 512 before upload.

Actually - There is a huge difference between the two, when you have a high end system and even when you don't. When you apply a high resolution texture to a 'small' surface, the texture remains crisp and clean, rather than having pixelation, which is caused by a smaller resolution. Resolution doesn't necessarily apply only to size when it comes to texturing. If you use photoshop, the difference would be if you take a 1024 texture, and you use the shrink feature (not resize), it will look cleaner and more crisp than it did when it was at 1024. If you actually resize the image to 512, it will simply be a smaller version of the 1024. So, really, the exact opposite of what you are saying is true. By applying a 1024 texture to a smaller surface, you actually create a more crisp image than what you would normally see at 1024.

That having been said, I agree with you, that as far as load times are concerned and the actual load on the server, having everything set to 512 would be benificial. However, SL has not implimented this as their solotuion. If you use the Texture Console and you load up a 1024 texture, you will see that the server is still reading it as a 1024 texture. The size is still the same. It's the client that you are using that is changing the compression of that file and is causing the problems. So, they have done nothing to actually reduce the load on the server or load time for that matter, all that has changed is how it's being displayed on your system. So, while in theory, your sarcastic response is correct, it does not resolve the problem they are experiencing with textures, which is what I'm trying to find a resolution to.

Furthermore, I am going through all my 1024 textures, and downsizing them to 512 and am going to be repackaging everything and re-uploading them for that matter. But that does not fix all the stuff out there that is 1024, of which there is probably a lot more than you think, especially skins.

And my post mentioned having everything downsized to 512, but at least having it so that the textures work - rather than just having them lock up, which is what they do now. Right now, the 'downsizing' is visual only, which has no benifit at all. That is the main issue that they are having with their texturing.

512 - Really, is just fine. I used 1024, because I do custom formal dresses and the like, and the people requesting them expect a high level of detail. You can get far more detail out of a 1024 texture and they used to work just fine.


So, to quote myself:

I'd like to see this problem resolved. Even if it means that textures only load as 512 textures regardless of the textures resolution. So long as they actually load.

... And please do not post a response to this thread, just to try and make yourself look cool and try and sound like you know what you are talking about when you don't.

If you have some insight as to what might actually be the cause of the problem - then by all means, post away. Regardless of what resolution you happen to work in as a designer. Regardless of what resolution you happen to resize everything to... it's still an issue. The reason it hasn't been fixed, and the reason it's still causing load issues on the server, is because people just say 'Well, just use 512, you don't need 1024...'. You're absolutely correct... you don't. But something needs to be done to fix the bug regardless.

you get exactly 4 times more pixels, course you force everyone that sees your textures to use 4 times more video memory (and i dont really care how detiailed your dresses are if the LOD monster kicks in and fuzzes out the whole scene)

The talent of texturing isnt how much detail you can fit in a 1mega-pixel image

I don't understand the people that have to this point responded to this thread. This is not a debate about 512 vs. 1024.

It's trying to address a bug that is affecting the game. If you wish to debate about 512 vs 1024 resolution textures, create another thread please.

Whether you think everyone should be using 512 or not -- which AGAIN I will say, is not a bad idea and would improve performance on the servers -- there is still a problem with texture loading in the game, which is attributed to how the client application handles textures which are over 512 in resolution, on av's. You can say 512 is all you need until you are blue in the face. There are still textures and LOTS of them, that are over 512, which are causing issues. And it has likely impacted everyones enjoyment of the game, most people probably just aren't aware of what is causing the issue. This should be an easy issue to address - but for some reason has taken over 2 months. And no, the fix isn't telling everyone that 512 is all you need. That is not going to change the fact that many people have already used 1024 in their designes, and that those files are likely causing load issues on the server.

Please stop being so ignorant.

Well since you're framing the issue as something that impacts people's enjoyment of SL, texture load lag is a big issue in that regard... hence the suggestion to not use textures that big for skins or clothing since it negatively impacts everyone who has you in their draw distance. I fail to see the ignorance in that. If you're trying to report a bug instead of open a discussion, use the bug report feature in the client.

I do the same thing Chip after I noticed issues with the 1024 textures. I have actually reuploaded many of my items after resizing them. The 1024 causes the textures to "dance" on my avi. When I use the same exact texture but in 512, I have no problem at all.

I do hope that they address the issue so that this is not a problem in the future.

I have reported it as a bug, as mentioned in my original post.

theres also a area of the forum to directly ask the lindens questions if you dont like our ignorance.

the plain fact is mega-pixel images on dynamicly moving 3d objects is murder on current 3d hardware, every dance step every booty shake, causes the render to recalulate every pixel position within the viewer, think of a snow globe when its at rest the "snow" makes a solid plain of white, you move it and those flakes resposition. If this is new to secondlife i dont know, but its nothing new to 3d graphics.

I agree the problem showed up with 1.7 and many designers, prior to that update used 1024x1024 resolution. I still have clothes that won't load unless I relog. Dunno how I look to other tho.

This is NOT a bug. This was done on PURPOSE though I doubt LL will admit that. I've already posted the theory I heard from a little bird, so I won't go into it again.

512 is all ya need, detail is nice, but not necessary.

That wouldn't surprise me, but I'm not sure why they wouldn't make it known if that were the case. I can see legitimate uses for high rez skin and clothing textures, but not for general use. I have a skin made from my custom templates that uses 1024x1024 to make the grid lines more easily readable. I could also see using high resolution textures for purposes of doing hi rez screenshots. For stuff to wear in public though it's just a bad idea.

that makes me wonder why they would go through the trouble crippling the renderer, then obfuscating it rather than hard-coding 512x512 as the max resolution for each clothing layer, if they intentionally crippling it to "persuade" people to resort to 512s.

I know '0' about textures on moving objects like clothing but i DO know the bigger the image ie: pixels, the longer it takes to rez and having recently purchased some trousers that clearly have a high rez texure ( hand drawn ) i nvr see them as anything but a blurred mess of grey no definition to the pattern at all...

Oddly and im assuming it depends on which sim im in and how much resources are being pulled in that immediate area they come clear.

I have 1 gig ram. 8 meg bandwidth and a very good graphics card so lord only knows how those with lesser power in their PCs see the world filled with high res textures.

I never upload textures I make higher than 512 because a) it would be a massive rez problem in my store and 2) i know its irresponsible to sell extreme high res textures for ppl to go out building with adding all that weight to the servers.

some say 256 is ample for most builds and I agree on things like roof tiles that are repeated patterns but my building fronts with TGA windows need to be 512 x 512 as most ppl want to stretch to 10x10 prim to reduce the prim requirements

Why anyone would want or need a 1024 size texture for anything avatar related is beyond me as for what better detail you think your getting is missed as the chances of it ever rezzing enough to see it is unlikely so it kinda defeats the objective

Thats just my 2 penny worth

QFT

Dare I ask? what QFT means...good or bad

If it's good then i say ' See? everyone backs me up!'

If it's bad i say ' well kiss my lilly white ass! '


*laughing*

aaahhh I looked it up on the internet

QUOTED FOR TRUTH

Used on internet forums when quoting someone with similar views as yours.


See?? everyone backs me up!

rofl

oh please oh please do not fix this "bug" . . . 1024 textures brings my machine to a crawl when trying to render them (and many people regularly have those on at once in a gathering).

Maybe you can quote this to your customers ?
As they more than likely have little information ragarding the LAG high rez textures create and maybe also mention they chances are (esp at a busy wedding) all that detail in your 1024 dress may be litle more than a cloudy blur.

The high level of detail isnt seen in busy sims or on low power PCs I own skins I recently bought and they take FOREVER for the make-up to come clear each time I try wear one...so I wont buy that particular brand again...I'll stick to the experts Second Skins

In short LL have increased the loading times of textures af anything upto 512 maybe they didnt inc anything higher for a good reason...maybe they assumed most people knew 512 was ample and anything higher its a rez nightmare.

I upload aprox 1000 textures a mth and Trust me the speed they upload is wonderful now
I did upload a few 1024 by error the other day ( forgot to decrease them) and they did take a few seconds (20) to upload but I got them.

Your customers would respect your knowledge on the subject and the truth about how a high end pixeled texture might ruin the overall look depending on ABC factors.

Im sure you prefer a good reputation and repeat orders rather than ' the dress was justa blur all day' and nvr see you again.

Also I never forget how much one persons view and exp of SL differs from mine or anyones elses...we all have dif PCs dif power and graphics card dif band widths and some have lots of stuff running on the PC in teh background like anti viruses which REALLY show a PC down so as your see somethign thru your PCs eyes is not how other ppl see the same thing.

I learnt this from my exp creating & selling textures and watching dif times of rez loads looking at the same textures...how some ppl cant movein my store and others fly with ease and this all changes day by day the opposite could be true the following day.

Best bet is stick to a reasonable 512 its by your own words 'fine'