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Clothes: could we have a way to change the layer they go into?

Gwyneth Llewelyn
Winking Loudmouth
Join date: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,336
03-05-2005 02:41
Hello there :)

One of the threads somewhere hinted that LL was thinking about adding a new "layer" for tattoos/skins. This would mean we would have the following layers:

Head:
- Base Skin
- Tattoo

Upper Body:
- Base Skin
- Tattoo
- Undershirt
- Gloves
- Shirt
- Jacket

Lower Body:
- Base Skin
- Tattoo
- Underpants
- Socks
- Pants

(and the meshed skirt, and - upcoming, according to this forum! - capes)

Now, the problem with this model is that the decision of what layer the clothing goes into is done by the creator - and not by the buyer. While base skin and tattoo have a different interface than the rest of the clothes, the problem is when you want to mix outfits from different clothes designers. For some reason, almost all creators of lingerie think it's a wonderful idea to have bras labeled as "jackets" and underpants as "pants" or so. Meaning that it's pretty hard to mix outfits so that they make sense. However, I can also understand that some people actually like to wear their underpants on top of their pants, so giving clothes designers the choice where the item should go is too restrictive.

In an ideal world, clothes designers would save all clothes they sell into different layers - so I could have a version of a top that is "wearable" as an undershirt, shirt, or jacket, depending on the rest of the clothes I'm wearing. However, since it's impossible to get the clothes designers to do that (they would be selling "several versions" of the same item for the same price...), I suggest a different idea:

Let "wearing clothes" work just like attachments. People would just have basically three types of clothes, corresponding to the three different clothes templates (head, upper body, lower body). When wearing them from inventory, you'd be able to select the layer you want it to go - precisely like the attachments! The system would "remember" the last layer it went to, so, the next time you double-click on it (or drag to your AV), it would be worn on the "correct" layer. You could even keep the current tiny icons to reveal which layer that item is currently "on" (ie. if I last weared my bra as a jacket, it would show in inventory with a red jacket icon).

This way, the designers could "suggest" an appropriate layer when creating the clothes, but the choice of which layer you are going to use is done by the buyer, not the seller. On copyable items you could even use the same piece of clothing on different outfits, on different layers.

If this means too much inventory redesigning, perhaps a slightly different approach would facilitate the actual coding. Clothes are just textures with special attributes. Instead of redesigning inventory, you would be able to open Appearances, drag, say, a jacket to your avatar, "change layers" so that it's displayed on the Shirt layer instead, and save it. If the item is copyable, you'd get a new copy. If it's non-mod, the original will of course disappear (no jacket any more) and you couldn't change the settings on Appearances, but you could at least save it as a different clothes item. I think this would be more than enough for the purpose, and limit the amount of necessary programming (imagine just adding an extra button called "Change Layer" or so). Inventory would work exactly like it works today.

Please note that I'm not asking for more layers :) (I know, this would stress the "textxure baking" code) I'm only asking for a way for the users to have some extra flexibility. 5 or 6 layers of skins/tattoos/clothes are more than enough for all sorts of "special effects", I think. We just need a way to be able to decide which layers to use, since we can't rely upon the clothes designers for making sensible choices :)
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Robin Linden
Linden Lifer
Join date: 25 Nov 2002
Posts: 1,224
03-06-2005 20:03
I'm not sure what's possible within the code -- in addition to the 'texture baking' question these changes could also impact inventory categorization and placement on the avatar. I'll look into that. In the meantime I'd love to get some feedback on this question from some of the other clothing designers, so I'm going to copy the thread to the Design and Textures forum.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
03-06-2005 21:41
From: Gwyneth Llewelyn
This way, the designers could "suggest" an appropriate layer when creating the clothes, but the choice of which layer you are going to use is done by the buyer, not the seller. On copyable items you could even use the same piece of clothing on different outfits, on different layers.


I think that's a great idea. It would add additional value to the buyer if they had more flexible ways to use what they buy so I'm all for it. It's not necessary for the skin and tattoo layers, but would be great for clothing layers. I asked in the hotline if we'll be getting an additonal texture layer for skin so that people who use custom skins can still change their own tattoos and was told it was coming (yay!).
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Zuzi Martinez
goth dachshund
Join date: 4 Sep 2004
Posts: 1,860
03-07-2005 10:06
yeah that would be nice. i have some jackets that only use the upper texture and i can't wear my "jacket" type belts with them.

how's about letting us change the priority and settings of animations too. :D naturally all this would be for mod items only.
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Namssor Daguerre
Imitates life
Join date: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,423
03-07-2005 13:30
Added flexibility like this is exactly what I like to see. I tend to see clothing, tattoos, and skins as the same entity anyways (a texture). Designers can specify the intended purpose of the texture by labeling it, but why limit the placement of that texture for the customer that buys it.

An added skin layer will be a huge boost to the whole customization market in makeup, skins, and tattoos. Glad to hear that change is coming! Although I am able to offer this feature right now with my skins, I have had to step outside the server side game environment to do that. I have taken my skin design about as far as it can go in the customization direction with current limitations. I would love to see people have in game access to the color, and skin grain layers also. With those added features skin/makeup designers like myself could truly build custom skins with all the flexibility offered by the default LL skin. Just a thought for the future.
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My Mackenzie
Certified ratnut
Join date: 6 Aug 2004
Posts: 86
03-08-2005 06:35
From: Gwyneth Llewelyn


*snip*

In an ideal world, clothes designers would save all clothes they sell into different layers - so I could have a version of a top that is "wearable" as an undershirt, shirt, or jacket, depending on the rest of the clothes I'm wearing. However, since it's impossible to get the clothes designers to do that (they would be selling "several versions" of the same item for the same price...), I suggest a different idea:

*snip again*


Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents here. I believe that if you talk to designers (some anyways) they will acommodate you with different layer styles of the same item, perhaps no transfer. All my lingerie is made on underwear layers, but if someone asks me for lets say a corset on a shirt layer, so they can wear it with a bra on an undershirt layer im happy to do that for them as a no transfer item.

Only reason i dont have several layer types of the same item, is because i like my things that i have for sale to be transferrable. :p lol

My
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Racer Plisskin
Rezerator
Join date: 2 Jan 2005
Posts: 147
03-08-2005 14:04
A couple of issues immediately come to mind for layer flexibilty of clothing items...

Jackets have a part that extends below the waist and must be drawn on the lower body template. What happens to that section of the jacket whan you drop it to the shirt or undershirt layer? Does it still exist but just in 'limbo' (undrawn) unless the item is moved back to the jacket layer again?

The shirt layer has the 'loosnes' slider. if you set a shirt as 'loose', what happens when you move it to another layer? Does it flatten out again or do you have to make code/model changes so all layers allow a 'loosness' setting? Maybe allow any non-skin/.tatoo layer to be 'loose' but only one layer can have it at a time. EG: Any non-zero loosness slider in a layer makes all the other layers loosness slider grey out with an indicator as to which other layer is currently loose. This way, no model changes should be required, just code.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. I just don't think it's quite so simple to implement it.

Racer P.