Skin Texturing Delimma

First off, I intended to place this is general discussion but that seems to be closed as of this moment. Feel free to move this thread. This seemed to be the next logical place to put it.

I've noticed a very bad trend lately with amateur skinners. More and more times I am running across skins that have extreme seams all over the place with VERY familiar brush work. These skin textures are being ripped from the sims 2.

Just the other day I encountered a guy that had a strangely pale skin on with massive seams. The texture itself, seams excluded, was beautifully done. Shadows and highlights were placed in a rather rare painterly method using cools and warms accordingly whereas most SL skins are painted using one saturated tone and one highlight and one shadow plus loads of blending inbetween. The conversation was as follows:

Me: "Wow, you have a really nice skin there! Color choices are amazing."

Him: "Thank you! I made it myself!"

Me: "Kind of reminds me of Enayla's 'Opaline Grace' skins for the sims 2 if you dont mind me saying. She paints game textures in that classic way. They tend to look more alive."

(Silence for a few minutes)

Him: "Ah, yea. I like her stuff. Hey, I gtg now. See ya!"

Then he ran off.

I myself, used to do eyes and skins for the sims 2 via a community website offering only free downloads. I know how easy it is to extract and edit these textures.

If he had made it himself.. had that superb ability to digitally paint just as Enayla does, then I dont think he would have left ugly seams in it.

Just wanted to open this up for discussion and announce an overall "its obvious you ripped it" comment for those out there.

Great story. Always interesting to see how people react when they're caught, especially when no actual accusation is made. The ambiguity of your comments to this person was well played, a subtle hint toward "I know what you did", if they actually did it, or a just a simple comparison if they didn't.

I take it from the title of the thread you're wondering how people tend to handle it when they encounter obviously stolen content? I'll usually alert the rightful owner of the IP, if I know who they are. Sometimes they E-mail back to say thanks, sometimes they don't. Either way, I've done my civic duty, as far as I'm concerned. It's not for me to say how or whether anyone else should go about protecting their own IP rights. I just want to make sure they know what I saw, so that if they do want to pursue it, they can. From there, it's up to them.

If I were you, I'd shoot this Enayla person a quick E-mail, and relay your story in more detail, including the name of the person who did the alleged copying. After that, it's out of your hands.



That said, I do want to throw out a word of caution. Just because something might be full of ugly seams, but otherwise beautifully painted, does NOT necessarily mean it was ripped. If you recognize a work from somewhere else, as you well may have in this particular case, that's one thing. But the line of reasoning, "If he had that superb ability to digitally paint, then I don't think he would have left ugly seams in it," is unfair, if not completely absurd.

It's important to remember that SL's avatar UV mapping is not good. Eliminating seams on the avatar is really hard, even for seasoned experts. Heck, if you could see some of the half-finished textures in my inventory, you'd probably end up accusing me of ripping them, too, if "too well painted for seams" is your criteria, and I'd be the last person ever to rip anything. Don't discount the fact that creating seamless skins for SL is a skill that can take months or years to develop, and that can take several days worth of work to implement on a sufficiently complex skin.

Ever wonder why good skins are expensive? That's why. If this stuff were as easy as your comment were to imply, everyone would do it. (And yes, I realize I'm taking the comment somewhat out of context at this point. I just want to emphasize the point to everyone. Be careful when making judgments. Consider all the facts.)




On a side note, I've never looked at the UV maps for The Sims 2 character models, but I'd imagine they're probably a damned sight better than what we've got to work with in SL. I'd be hard pressed to believe they could be worse, at any rate.

The fact that one may have had success as a skin artist in one virtual world or game does not necessarily ensure one any expertise in another. Notice there are very few artists out there who make content for more than one world. For most people, even most very talented people, there just aren't enough hours in the day to develop the requisite skills to be great in more than one, let alone actually do the work itself. It's important to have experienced what's really involved first hand before assuming judgment about what anyone else might or might not be doing to make content for any particular world.

Drama fishing off a dead horse.
Sorry, everyone and their mothers know about this.

And no, whoever knows how to make game art, be it texturing or modelling for one single virtual world, probably will know for any others, the programs and methods of work used are the same.

Perhaps you should rethink your metaphors. First, the OP didn't strike me as fishing for much of anything at all, let alone drama. I'm not sure where you're getting that. Second, "dead horse" would imply that the issue is not ongoing. That's simply not the case, as I'm sure you know. Yes, this subject has been well beaten, but it's hardly been beaten to death.

I for one am ALWAYS glad to hear when someone is conscientious about IP rights.




So you already knew Nils had this encounter before he posted about it? And so did your mom? And everyone else's mom? Wow. That's impressive. I guess I should have asked my mom before I replied.

Come on, man. To shut someone down just because the overlying issue he's bringing up is a common topic of discussion is just all kinds of wrong. If you don't want to participate in the conversation, fine. But kindly don't imply that others shouldn't be talking about it if they want to.




Spoken like someone who is NOT a content creator, or at least not a serious one (no offense). Yes, the programs and methods may be the same, in a strictly generalized sense. But when it comes to the quirks and peculiarities of each platform, for many people it can take months or even years to get really good with the specifics of any particular one.

I can promise you, work I've done on other VW platforms like Playstation Home, Blue Mars, IMVU, and others, not to mention other 3D and 2D work on TV shows, films, games, advertising, etc., etc., etc., have in no way made me any better equipped to deal with the distinct challenges associated with SL skin-making, in any but the most general possible sense. Sure, ANY work one does in a given medium will make one a better artist within that medium, if the only way you want to look at it is generalistically. But in no way does working on any one platform automatically mean that one will be any better prepared for the specifics of any other.

If you think they're all the same, then you just haven't worked with more than one. And if you think theory is the same as practice, then you quite obviously haven't had much practice.

You might as well try to say every house painter should right away be able to paint portraits, or every pianist should also be able to master the pipe organ instantly. After all, paint is just paint, and keys are just keys, right? WRONG! That's just not how it works.

Notice it was a good two years or so before the first skins hit the grid. And they were made by a professional 3D artist who'd been involved with SL practically since day one. Why didn't he just whip up those skins the first day, since he already knew his way around his 3D and 2D tools of choice, and already possessed all the skills necessary to make his living as a pro in the 3D industry? The answer is it took time to work out techniques specific to SL's unique requirements as a platform. It always does.

Hands up everyone who's ever used the "Evil-N" texture packs from Yadni's junkyard in a build.

Forgive my ingorance, Argent, but what are those, and how do they relate to what we've been discussing? With just one or two exceptions over the years, I've never used anyone else's textures but my own for anything, so I'm afraid I don't know very much about what texture packs might be floating around, even the popular ones. Do these Evil-N ones contain some ripped images or something?

They were all over the grid in 2005 and 2006, and they're still out there in freebie boxes. The textures were all ripped from videogames.

Ah. Thanks for clarifying.

The silver lining in this *is* the difficulty in skinning the SL avatar. It keeps the platform hopping Riptards from completely saturating SL with hijacked IP from other VR worlds and games (We have enough to deal with on this platform, alone). Because SL's environment is unique and the avatar mesh is so quirky, it just doesn't translate in or out well for many of the MUCH better designed UV layouts (i.e. RealXtend's) and better rendered platforms (that don't require so much baked in lighting), especially if textures are run through a texture converter. I've tried this conversion method to see first hand how polished the textures might be. I was pleased that this method of texturing produced inferior results compared with designing textures directly on the SL avatar model. There is always PLENTY of clean-up after a mechanical texture conversion, especially around seams. It's a lot less work to start with a good set of live model reference photos (if going for a natural photo realistic human look) or some nice custom brushes and the appropriate software for working directly with the SL avatar model inside SL.

Nils, I bet the next time you see that person (if that ever happens) they won't be wearing that skin, either because you've sufficiently outed and embarrassed him from a moral standpoint, or because he will soon find out that SL's discerning residents tend to have issues with seams on skins - Something that he will have difficulty fixing.

I guess I just don't understand people who are "positive" they recognize someone's stolen content, especially skins. I am an experienced RL artist who has long-time been a certified photoshop expert (which means nothing to anyone except adobe, I think...) but what I'm trying to get at is this: how do you 'know' someone's work? So many skin artists' works resemble each other, many skin artists have re-invented themselves and their brands, some have retired old files and may resell them... also, artists' work changes over time. So how do you really know? I'd think that someone who has the skill to grab a skin from the Sims and figure out how to use it in SL is probably more skilled than the average SL user, but I don't really know much about the sims.

I see my own creations on other avatars and sometimes it takes me awhile to RECOGNIZE MY OWN WORK due to body shapes and things like that. A shape can really affect how a skin looks, it can look so different from av to av -- how can anyone except possibly the creator be CERTAIN that someone is wearing a ripped skin?

I'll try sending Enayla a mail, but she has been out of the texturing scene for a good two years now due to some real life issues. For anyone unfamiliar with her name and asking how I recognize her work, she is the one who created and painted the textures and concept art for the daemons (sp?) for The Golden Compass. I think her real name is Emily or something. So her work is quite distinctive. (Edit: correct name is Linda Bergkvist )

As for embarrassing and outing the individual, I have posted this from an alt account, months after the encounter in after thought. If it was stolen content and if they read this thread by chance only then will they connect the two. So if it was indeed honest work they more than likely wont even recall this event it was so brief and subtle. If they do, however, I would love to have the chance to sit down in world and voice my apology as well as hand over helpful seam tips. If my eyes did deceive me and I am mistaken then I would gladly pay 5K or more for a skin THAT beautifully rendered in world. It was, by far (seams excluded) the best texture work I have ever seen in my entire life with the exception of Enayla's work of course.

Enayla's personal site (with tutorials I might ad) : http://www.furiae.com/ for anyone who is interested.

EDIT:



The seams alone were definitely not my main criteria but a small added bump to my already overwhelming suspicion. I'll explain further down in my post in response to Merlynn.



Last night while at work I thought of an appropriate way to convey how I knew. I know not everyone knows Linda's work but the mass art community (especially at CGtalk and such) can spot her work in an instant. She's someone we've all admired and aspired to be like. I felt a strong sense of recognition in the textures themselves just like you would recognize Starry Night as a Van Gogh painting even if someone else was claiming it as something they created.

I hope that clears things up.

In ending (b/c I'm letting it dwindle off after this) I brought this up to see what sort of responses I would get. Its fascinating to me how each person differs and it causes everyone to form their own assumptions about each commenter based on their response. For example, my first assumption about someone who is overtly critical of someones claim or social comment about texture theft is that they dont necessarily think the theft is a bad thing and might have dabbled in the artisitc sin themselves.

Just a thought. Perception is everything and your avatar should be an extension of your real life self even if you do take on a different persona. It affects you either way. I've run across WAY too many people in real life that I had only spoken to online before. I make every impression count.

Thanks for discussing this with me! I love healthy conversation. =]

Chosen Few I'm not very sure what are you trying to get at? Have you ever done any concept art at all? and I mean CONCEPT-ART, game art content, texturing, DIGITAL PAINTING (Yes, Im writting with capital letters and I realize this, just some people don't get it.), it's all made by using the same program, I'm sorry I could care less what you've done to Playstation2, or XBOX, because whatever you did, wasn't concept art nor anything relevant enough for you to even mention it (no offense, just plain truth) and that's for sure.

It's a matter of importing a file to SL and apply it to a clothing layer, there's your formula. Either Corel Painter or Photoshop CS, painting is all done the same way.
Report whoever you like and move on with your life, what's the point of spreading drama all over the Internet other than you have nothing better to do?

I actually do make a living out of concept art and game content, what about you dear Chosen? Do you do anything other than writting ridicolusly long posts on SL forums that no one will read?

Dead horse as in this is going on since SL started, give me a break, everyone knows there are people getting skins out of Sims2, Anima, Shaiya, Blizzard Inc, whatever else. If you really, and I mean, really want to help them out that much, report them and move on.

Moral of story, before you even type about anything, think of what you know about the whole subject, or you end up looking like someone who doesn't know jack sh*t and is just pretending they do. That's you, buddy.

P.S. The statements 'dead horse' and 'everyone and their mothers know about this', was a way of trying to get a point go through and give it a emphasis. So I tried to write a little more clear and without all those, some people can't seem to understand their true meanings.

Good day to you!

Where are you getting all that venom, Voodoo? Jeez, man, relax. Anyway, I'll respond to each of your points.



I thought I'd made my points clear enough, but I'll humor you and restate them:

1. To scold someone for bringing up a topic, just because it happens to have been discussed before, is wrong.

2. Just because someone might have experience creating content for any one platform does not mean he or she will automatically be skilled at creating anything for any other. Each one has its unique quirks.

If you need proof of number 2, take a look at all the posts on this forum from experienced 3D artists who have fallen flat on their faces when first confronted with SL. It happens all the time. Heck, I know plenty of professional game artists and Hollywood CGI artists who avoid SL like the plague because it was "too hard" when they tried it. Those guys can't imagine how I have the patience for it.




Is that supposed to be a joke? Sorry, but I'm having trouble not laughing at the question. I realize you don't know me from a hole in the wall, so it's probably not a joke, but seriously, if you could see the room I'm sitting in right now, you'd laugh at the question, too. Believe whatever you want, though, if it makes you feel better.



Allow me some caps of my own. OF COURSE, I create concept art for my clients every day, as anyone who has any experience in this field would readily expect. Here's how it typically goes, for me, and for just about anyone who works in this industry:

1. Artist and Client meet to discuss client's wants and needs. Artist takes notes, and makes some quick sketches.

2. Artist draws up proposal, which includes full descriptions of what will Artist will be creating for client. Proposal will usually include some concept art, but won't always, depending on the project.

3. Once client has accepted the proposal, a contract is drawn up. Artist and Client both sign it. Work begins in earnest.

4. Artist now creates full gamut of concept art (drawings, rudimentary models, etc., whatever is needed) for client to approve or disapprove. Disapproved concepts are tweaked or re-imagined until Client approves, or until Artist says, "That's not what we discussed," and then the contract is reassessed.

5. Once concepts are approved, Artist creates actual assets.

That's the standard creation pipeline. Occasionally, there are times when step 4 isn't necessary. It does happen every so often that a client will give me a stack of pre-existing concept art, and they'll say, "Here's what we already know what we want. Now make it in 3D for us." But usually, I'm doing the concepts as well as the assets.


Now, I have no idea what any of this has to do with the topic at hand. We weren't talking about concept art. We were talking about actual in-world assets. What is it you're trying to say about how the concept art that precedes a skin or article of clothing, assuming the artist has even created any concept art in the first place for the given item, relates to the actual creation of the item itself? Concept art is just reference material, nothing more. What exactly is the point you're trying to make?



Well, there are lots of programs. But even if it were just one, what would it matter? It's not what you're making it with but what you're making it for that makes the biggest difference. The Mona Lisa and the yellow line down the middle of the street were both created with a paint brush. That hardly means a street painter could create the Mona Lisa.



First, I'm glad you're finally acknowledging that experience outside SL isn't necessarily relevant to creating content specifically FOR SL. That was my point, exactly. Thank you for recognizing that.

Second, what on earth would make you assume that any client, let alone one as particular as Sony, would ever allow me to just make any old thing without first showing them a concept? That's ridiculous. Again, OF COURSE, I created concept art for those projects, before the actual asset work began. It couldn't have been otherwise.

Is your definition of "concept art" perhaps different from the standard meaning of the phrase?




OK, the formula for playing the violin is you press the strings to the fingerboard with your left hand as you draw the bow across them with your right. Got it? Now, play Flight of the Bumblebee. You've got the formula. It should be no problem. Just do it.

Or how about this? The formula for hitting a home run is you swing the bat and hit the ball far enough that the other team can't return it in time to tag you out. OK, now go up against a major league pitcher, and knock it out of the park. All you need is the formula.

Come on, man. Don't be daft. Getting good at ANYTHING takes practice. Texturing the SL avatar is no different. Just because someone can paint in Photoshop doesn't mean they can automatically make good seamless skins or clothing.



Well, there are differences. But yes, it's very similar. However, that's got nothing to do with anything I was saying. Don't confuse the issue. I wasn't talking about tools, but platforms. Again, it's not what you're making the art WITH that makes the biggest difference. It's what you're making it FOR.

When I create a texture for the SL avatar, I rely on the specific experience I've gained over the years with that particular animated model. I emphasize its strengths and do what I can to minimize its weaknesses. Ask any skinner or clothier in SL, and they'll tell you the same thing. It's a specific awareness that can only come with experience and practice, and which has very little to do with talent or pre-existing skill.



Well, I usually don't go broadcasting every last story. I would assume the OP chose to share this particular tale simply because it was interesting. And I agree, it WAS. Seemingly, some others agreed as well.

The only one who brought any "drama" to the thread was you. I'm sorry for you if you can't see that.



Good for you, assuming it's true. Based on what you've said here, I'd be disingenuous if I didn't admit that I find it a little hard to believe, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Tell me, were you making seamless skins in SL on day one, just because you had prior experience? If you did, you'd be the first in the history of SL not to have had any trouble with it. I'm sure the other uber savant Brainiacs from planet Smartron Five are proud of you for announcing your race's existence to the world in this thread. But for the rest of us mere Earthlings, it's a skill that takes practice to develop, regardless of outside experience.



I think I've well enough explained what I do for a living. Do I really need to go over it again? How about I just quote my own letterhead for you?

"3D Modeling - Texturing - Graphic Design - Illustration - Audio Production - Motion Graphics"

I offer a full range of digital art services. My clientele ranges from TV & movie studios, to game companies, to corporations, to small business, to individuals. My business philosophy is simple. If you've got a project I find interesting enough to want to work on, and if you can afford my rates, I'm yours.

Yesterday, I spent my day working on some example assets that an online university had asked me to make, for use in teaching poly modeling and UV'ing techniques. Then in the evening, I packed up some audio recording gear, and headed over to a local dinner theater restaurant, where the owner had hired me to record some disembodied dialogue for a nightmare sequence in a play that will be opening soon. I'm off today and tomorrow, but Friday I'll be editing that audio, and also drawing up a proposal for a new client who wants me to make a line of sculpted armor for him to sell in SL. Shall I go on? Would you like to know what I've got planned for next week? Come on.



Ooh, how can I insult Chosen Few? I know, I'll call him long winded. I'm sure he's never heard that before. While I'm at it, I'll make fun of the sky for being blue, and I'll call the grass green. When I'm done, I'm gonna go over to a retirement home and call the people old. I might even call the pavement black, just to rub it in.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. Yes, I tend to write prolifically. I won't apologize for it. If you don't like my posts don't read them. No one's forcing you. You'll miss out on some good information, but that's your choice.

A lot of people do seem to read what I write, no matter how long it is. OK, so I might not relate too well to the text-message-centric-crowd, who appear to believe that everything should be as misspelled as possible, no sentence should ever be complete, there's no such thing as grammar, and God forbid anyone ever dare to formulate a whole paragraph. I don't think I'm missing much. I prefer to talk to people who actually have an attention span. If that's not you, fine. Do whatever makes you happy.




Can't you just admit you picked a bad metaphor, and be done with it? If it's ongoing, it's not a dead horse, period.

Want me to help? How about, "You're preaching to the choir. We all know about this already, and we all agree it's bad." That works a bit better. It's still rude, dismissive, and unfair, but at least it makes sense.



And that means we should be barred from discussing it?



That's exactly what I do, as I stated. Your point is?




Were you looking in the mirror when you wrote this paragraph?




If you want people to understand "their true meanings", use them in a context that works. Don't redefine them at your own whim.





So polite.

I come to these forums looking for posts by Chosen Few, and I bet that I'm not the only one.

Thank you, Chosen. Please keep up the good work. Have you ever thought of writing a book?

With Chosen, the longer the better, but with others...not so much.

I agree. Right on, Chosen.

Hope, Nam, Rolig, thanks for the kind words. It's much appreciated.

I 3rd that emotion !!! Thanks guys and gals who have contributed there expertise and time . Your responces are most appriecated.
humbly , Dani