dilema that is causing some discouragement need input hehe

Okay well I have been selling clothing that is modfiy copy (no transfer) because I want people to be able to adjust pant legs if they wear different shoes etc or if they wear long gloves I want them to be able to adjust a jacket or whatever so the gloves show they way they are supposed to.

Anyhow I'm not totaly worried cause people still got to work for their copies but seeing posts on how to copy stuff that is not suppposed to be copied I am trying to decide what to do. I'm also not totally sure if it will do any good but I see a lot of stuff sold with NO permissions that is obviously a time consuming design and I think I am beginning to see why.

I was considering putting my permissions to copy only, but this will remove some of the versatility of various items cause they can't be tweeked or adjusted.

Anyhow was just seeing what other were doing and the reasoning why. I think you will know my reasoning for lowering permissions on items. Just wondering what others are doing

I am just starting making and selling clothing so I am not an expert but have been considering, among other things, the implications of setting various permissions... for an item of clothing I would suggest:

Copy : Allow - particularly important if a resident wants to use an item in a number of outfits! If you intend to enable modify then the buyer should be able to keep an original intact and modify the copy. My favourite shoes are (part) no copy and it's a constant source of frustration when I make an outfit and find I have lost bits of them from another outfit!

Modify : Depends on the item but your reasoning is good for the items you mention. Consider on a case-by-case basis.

Transfer: Don't allow - it's a shame because I often want to buy things as gifts for friends - but if transfer is allowed you can't allow copy which I think is more desirable with clothing. Some stores have various systems set up for bying items as gifts - I haven't looked into this yet.

I am fairly experienced in SL now, 4 months old and far too many hours each week, but I have never come across ways of bi-passing the copy settings. I'm not saying they are not there, I'm pretty sure they are, there's nothing computer related that can't be hacked, but I believe the vast majority of SL residents would not be aware of such cheats - I am a keen reader of forums and haven't come across them anyway. I don't think it's worth worrying about anyway- I won't be - I think you should stick to what you are doing unless more experienced makers/sellers have good reasons for you not to. Generally I like to trust people

Cat

Hi Wilhelm & Cat,

Though I have been in SL a long time, I have just started a short time ago at trying my hand at making clothes. It is so very easy to spend hours each day just doing that, espeically since I enjoy it very much. Wilhelm, your question is one that I have been thinking of also. I made a t-shirt for a friend and I want him to be able to modify it to fit him better or change from long to short sleves if he wants, raise or lower the collar and so forth. What I don't want is for the texture or colour to be changed. Being very new at this, is there a way to allow someone to change the sliders for the body but not able to change texture or colour? One reason for this is that if I place a picture or colour art work on clothing, if someone changes the colour, the picture and or art work loses their sharpness. Is it all or none? Just wondering out loud. Thanks,
Kat

hehe well most of the stuff i make tinting it will just ruin the entire thing as its not a greyscale item. (you can make greyscale stuff but you have to leave out things)


I have been making stuff modify,copy no transfer but i'm not sure its a good idea with people trying to find way to upload textures of the template (its not possible now that I know of but that doesnt' mean someone hasn't or isn't making a way to do it and it may already exist hehe)

no modify on items made with prims in the clothing industry seems to have almost become a norm. Its frustrating for the buyer to not be able to resize a pair of boots but at the same time if you leave modify on people can copy an entire boot design. Again it didn't appear to be an issue a year ago but it has become one (change of times or sign of the times depending on which way you look at it)

Anyhow yes I am considering removing the ability to modify although I'm not sure if its a huge issue or not really.


so yeah you can make tintable items if you use a greyscale but the definition like zippers etc can't really be there. Modify on stuff with zippers and buttons is limited to changing length of stuff or width of a pantleg. I was leaving it on in case they buy one thing from me an go shopping for another thing elsewhere so they can coodindate their outfits and have it all fit together.


In the end though I might just leave it modify copy, No transfer its better for the customer

Transfer well with the asset servers etc well i just tossed that idea out the window because the first thing people should do is copy their new shirt or whatever 5 times hehe hopefully to minimize the fact that it might go poof (also to be able to make outfits in folders that they can drag onto themselves)

edit: if he has a modifiable shape (which if you buy them is often hard to find) he can adjust his body but his entire look will change it wont change where the sleeves end or collar ends though just make his boots or hat or hair fit

I usually sell clothes as Copy OK/Mod OK/NO Transfer, or Copy OK/NO Mod/NO Transfer, or as NO Copy/NO Mod/Transfer OK.

Copy OK/Mod OK/NO Transfer is the most flexible for clothes. If it is something they can't readily screw up by tweaking it, I'll sell it this way. This is virtually the only good setting for prim clothing items, unless it is something like shoes.

Copy OK/NO Mod/NO Transfer is what I use for more complex outfits, where messing with tint or adjusting the appearance sliders is more likely to mess it up than make it better. Prim shoes are often sold in this form, with specific instructions as to what to set the avatar foot size to so they will fit. On higher end clothes, adjusting things like sleeve length or the bagginess of the shirt or pants leg will result in sleve or hem edges that look unfinished and textures that look distorted and mis-matched. So for a nice outfit, I'll usually lock down mod as well.

NO Copy/NO Mod/Transfer OK is what I use for giftable items or for very expensive outfits that someone may want to resell later. This is usually a special request item. If transfer is OK, you must make it NO Copy, or they could duplicate it infinitely, wsell it forever, and turn your hard work into a worthless freebie. If they mod it and then sell it, and if they screw it up, you get blamed for making something that is shoddy. So I lock mod on transferrable items, so the next person it gets transferred to hopefully gets the item in its original condition.

Services like SL Boutique and SL Exchange allow a merchant to place items for sale that can be bought by one person and delivered to a different avatar. This is by far the best way to give a gift in SL. I'll put any item anyone wants to buy form me on SLB like that, to facilitate a gift purchase.

If clothing is modifyable at all for sleeve length and the like, then they can also tint it. They can't replace or modify the texture though. Or if they do replace it, they lose the original texture. Even a 'full-perms' copy of clothing, skins or eyes will still prevent you from extracting a valid copy of the original textures. Otherwise all modifyable clothing, eyes and skins would be readily stolen, as it is the textures that make the majority of those item's value.

I sell my eyes as no-mod. There doesn't seem to be a compelling need for the to be moddable. (There are texture eyes, not prim eyes)

I sell glasses as mod/copy or mod/trans. Like anything that needs refitting, the mod part is pretty much a requirement. It would be nice if there was a "resize only" setting that was like a limited mod.... In lieu of that though, I suck it up and allow mod.

Anyway, if something is copy/no trans, and there aren't that many variables, you could include multiple sizes/lengths in a package, and make it no-mod. If they really want something that's *just right*, they can buy some custom work from you.

a lot of my stuff modifying does nothing except maybe width of pant leg etc so I am gonna switch permissions just so they dont mess it up. Last few items if they change the lenght it will well not look right because of where it ends on their torso. So yeah I have been setting everything I make to modify copy no transfer including boots.

I'm actualy going to for now leave my boots as modifiable people seem to like this but the benefits of modifying the clothing stuff that is painted on its minimal. I dont make prim skirts or anything but I imagine if I did those would be no modify for sure also for obvious reasons.

Anyhow thanks i wanted to know reasons i had figured out a few of them but wasn't sure about all of them. I bought an item that had no permissions the other day and was not sure why it was a pant suit type thing casual whatever which is what got me thinking about it.

Most of my stuff is not actualy ruinable with changes but the texture does end at a certain point of course and you will get a grey or white line so I sell it the right lenght with the purpose being to shorten it in case you buy something that is supposed to overlay it elsewhere

If you tint it though the buttons and zippers will all take on the tint colour and it will not look quite right which is why I consider my stuff not to be tintable

I might be the only one, but as a shopper I hate Copy, No Transfer and I'm much happier with No Copy, Transfer.

I know this stops me doing various things, but it works well for me.

well i hate no copy/no mod.
i like to be able to assemble outfits into folders and i may need to use the same skirt in multiple outfits and so on.
and i need to be able to mod prim items because i am very small.

I really avoid buying no Transfer if I can, unless it's a really good product, or has a decent reason, because I like to filter my less used stuff down to alts or give to a newbie, because I hate clogging my inventory with stuff I no longer use, and deleting it feels wrong when I consider the work that went into the product, I would rather see someone else using it.
I hate buying stuff for an alt or friend and not being able to see anywhere what it is till it's too late and know it's useless for that char so then delete it on the spot.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with deleting a product in SL - it's not as if it is the only copy, or that it really is anything tangible that is wasted. There are plenty of other ones of that item around, especially if it's a freebie. It's really not taking anything away from anyone to delete stuff. I guess I don't see it as waste at all, but that's just my opinion.

I would much rather have copy/mod rights for things I buy. With the rezzing problems, no copy is just too much of a risk, and I always hesitate to buy no mod things, since I almost always need to change something. I would never buy no mod clothing.

I guess it all depends on your attitude about the "stuff in SL". (shrugging shoulders)

wrong thread ? i have to stop with 20 open browser windows at once....

I hate to buy items that aren't copiable. I have several different body shapes and I like to make different outfit folders with different hair and accessory options too, so I need multiple copies of clothes. I never want to give away or sell any clothes. If I want to give clothes as a gift I would want the recipient to have copy permisions, so I like those fancy gift vendors, or else I IM the creator to arrange the gift. Of course when a designer makes it copiable they also make it notransfer so it's all cool, right?

Well it seems a few (not many) designers don't like to give copy/notransfer permissions, even if you ask. I don't get it. What are they worried about? It's no transfer, so you can't resell the item, you can't steal the clothing textures. (Of course if you use copybot or other tricks you can do it but you can do that no matter what the permissions are.) I'm not talking about scripted items or anything. Maybe they are worried you will make a copy of the prim skirt and put your own texture on it? I am not sure why they care if you do that. You can't resell it. Anyway, a nocopy/mod/transfer prim skirt can still have its structure stolen by looking at the numbers and duplicating it prim by prim. So making it copy/mod/notransfer should not be a problem. Maybe they don't want you to take a copy of a long skirt and make it short, so now you have 2 versions... I guess they want you to buy 2 copies of the dress if you want to mod one version to be short? I hope that's not the reason...

The majority of dress designers use copy/mod/notransfer I think. And most of the ones that don't will sell it you to with those permissions if you ask. So I am confused as to why a few don't.

My personal preference is mod/copy/no transfer for clothing. My AV is in no way misshapen, but she isn't model thin either, and I'm tired of getting belts and skirts that I can't tweak to fit me better. I don't really care about ones that are made on the template, but having a prim part that I can't use bothers the hell out of me. I'm getting to the point where unless it's spectacular, I won't buy an outfit I can't adjust. And even then, I'd look around elsewhere first. As for color, you might look to BareRose, she's extremely successful and sells almost everything in packs of a few color choices. If you sell more colors to begin with, chances are folks won't feel the need to change the tint.

Good question!

After much discussion with my customers, I have gone with the following options:

-Clothing: Copy/No Trans. I put no modify because most modification would only ruin the garment (ragged edges, loss of details due to changing the color...etc.). I have made modifiable versions for customers who request them.

If customers want to purchase an item as a gift I send it to the person, or I will make arrangements for them to have a transferable item that is no copy...although I am getting a gift vendor as soon as I have a spare moment.

-Prim Attachments (Hair, skirts, cuffs...): Mod/Copy/No Transfer. It's nearly impossible to meet the needs of all the different sized avs, so I allow them to modify attachments so they will fit properly...and can make a back-up in case modifications don't go as planned

Best,
~Ari

Great question and one i've been pondering recently. I haven't actually sold anything i've made so far(well except for the SLRFL charity and a commission job), just been having fun making stuff, but am now thinking of maybe setting up a little shoppe.
This is exactly what i've been getting headaches about. So far i'm thinking Mod-yes, copy-yes, trans-no on items like outfits with prim skirts (so they can be stretched to fit, but copy can be kept in case it goes wrong) and then maybe mod-no, copy-no, trans-yes on jewellery (for all those nice people who like buying others gifts). How does that sound?

/me goes back to studio to make some more stuff

Hi Sally!

Just a thought on the jewelry...I personally only purchase Mod/Trans jewelry. I find that sometimes items need to be adjusted to fit properly, like necklaces and bracelets.

Best wishes on your new venture!


~Ari

*giggle........ blonde forgot about the necklace/bracelet thing....... mostly been doing earrings so i guess that's why. Thanks for pointing that out!

And erm.... venture is so far a figment of my imagination ) but thanks for your best wishes!

Regarding the original question, anything that is evaluated by the client - which is all textures and all primitives that are displayed - can be 'copybotted' in principle. The basic rule is, if it can be seen or heard by the end user, it can be recorded by the end user. This is why the music and movie companies spend more time filing lawsuits than developing a net presence of their own - the reassurances they want before embracing the 'net wholeheartedly are simply impossible. It can be made more difficult, but I don't know how difficult it is with SL items since I'm not a copybot author myself...

Anyway, in principle these items can be copied just by passing through a room where they are located. I'm supposing steps have been taken to make this more difficult, but the problem is fundamentally unsolvable. In order to display a texture, you must let a client computer have access to the texture at some point. In order to render a primitive, the client computer must know the shape to render.

I'm not saying this to upset people, although you should be aware of the real limitations of the medium you're working in, but, rather, to say, you should make your permissions decisions based on what your customers want - which is the direction the conversation is turning anyway - because permissions will not really affect illegal copying much either way.

I make my items no copy - but mod/transfer. Here's why - if they want more of the same top they can buy more. But the transfer lets them give away to friends and possibly sell them later on down the line in a yard sale. I know the no copy thing is a bummer for some but I really feel that modify transfer is more important to customers.

Also - if you put transfer modify on the item no need to worry about the texture - they will not be able to "steal" it without a copybot (in which case it doesn't matter) or unless the texture is full perms.

hehe this is an old thread but at present most of my stuff is either modify copy or copy onlly because i had so much trouble with people loosing transfer no copy items i was loosing my mind so i made everything no transfer the asset server made the decision along with angry customers who would loose stuff from their inventory after spending money

also i made them that way because it was happening to me too and this last weekend was hell I Lost 2 trees and a 3k item I had purchased. People were lagging out during purchases and making multiple purchases others were purchasing and loosing the item the next day.

To save my sanity all my items are no transfer

and I got a gift card sytem thingy to solve the issues with giving items to people that are no transfer. I also dont subscribe to the "if they loose it they can buy another" having been through that myself its upsetting to go out buy a pile of items one day and find that due to an asset server glitch half the items are gone and I have to repurchase. Its not like I lost it on purpose I bought it logged out and logged back on to find the items were gone so after going through that stuff myself and replacing or just going without items now amounting i think to at least 50k over time (i lost so many items of decoration and boots and such its not funny due to these problems) I prefer use copy items they dont seem to go poof like that probably because over time i have 5 copies of each item at any given time