Seams, Shmeams!

Hey,

I know there are plenty of Residents out there (perhaps the majority) who are very 'seam aware'. I'm in the middle. For me it depends on the item. Like striped or plaid items need to line up on the seams because it would look wierd if not. BUT there are plenty of fabric patterns that wouldn't matter to me if they had a fairly obvious seam. Here's why:

1) If you look at the clothes in your rl closet... They all have seams!
2) Most of the seams in my clothes are, in fact, not matched up.
3) Afterall, it is a SEAM. Meaning that two pieces of fabric have been stitched together and the pattern on ether part of the seam doesn't exactly match up from one side to the other.
4) I know there is a difference between my closet and my inventory, but it does take more time for a designer to line up the seams exactly and we may see that reflected in the price.

That's my take anyway.

When I design something, I actually do make the seams match because of my perception that everyone is 'seam aware'. But it that really true? Does it matter to you?

What are your thoughts?

Riley

I am not "seam aware" as you call it. I only become "seam aware" when the seaming for one reason or another really jumps out at me. To date, I don't think this has ever happened. Here are the things that bug me about clothes..


#1) The Texturing
The vast majority of clothing textures out there are, for want of a better word, worthless. Poor/fuzzy edges, ridiculous shading, lack of detail... these are the things that cause me to reject items I have bought most often. In fact, at this point, there is only a small handful of shops I will even spend money at. I would guess that I delete about 75% of the clothes I buy when I am not buyign them from a known good designer. That is just much too high of a reject rate. Which leads to gripe #2.

#2) The advertising photography
Please people... If you don't know how to take a good photo in secondlife, then hire a pro, get a friend, do something. Honestly, I go into a wide variety of shops and think, "Wow, that looks pretty good. Too bad I can't see any detail in the advertising shot and I'm not about to waste my linden on another poor texture."

#3) Skirt/Flexi drape
OK, I have to seriously wonder if many of the people who are marketing skirts and other flexi items ever put the item on and went dancing... even once. Look, I know it's not easy. I know all about "not easy" having made my skin. But you HAVE to test your products in-world under real-world conditions or they WILL stink.

OK, flamefest off.

So no, seams are not an issue for me. What I do truly wish though is that secondlife wasn't so bifurcated into two basic classes... The good designers and the bad designers whith a pretty much gap between them. It is kind of sad that I've been relegated down to a small handful of stores to shop in and don't dare buy anywhere else. What if some new, up and coming designer, actually DID have good items? I'd never know about it because I'd be afraid to buy anyway no matter how good it looked in the store photo.

Seams are a big issue for me, I spend a lot of time on them. When I sew in RL and when I sew in SL.. And if you sew you know that the seams are the basis of the outfit you wear, if the seams are not right the fit suffers (IN SL- the eye will be distracted and it can make or break an outfit)... It's pretty important.



IMHO

T.S

i don't think seams matter too much with most clothing... the only time i've ever been bothered by it was when i was working on fishnet, since if that doesn't line up you've got little strips of fabric attached to nothing. Beyond that general idea, as long as fabric is attached to fabric, and sleeves don't look horrible, I think it's fine.

On another note, some of the best seems i've seen are actually when i was making textures for fences... every image I make i preview as everything, just for fun, and my wrought-iron and even picket fences turned out with perfect seems on bodies, and even faces. It was a very interesting look, but I liked it, and it lined up awesomely ^^

Here are my thoughts. I think they're best put as responses to your numbered points.


Yes, they do, but there's a huge two huge differences between real seams on real clothing and the kind of seams we get from digital templates.

First, in RL, a seam has a distinctive look. It's not just that one piece of fabric stops and another starts right next to it. The two are stitched together. There's always a fold at the joint. Often the stitching is visible. These are all features of the clothing, and none of them look at all like the seams you get in SL where one part of the template stops and the other starts.

Second, seams on real clothing rarely if ever fall in line with the way the templates are seamed. For example, you'll never find a shirt sleeve put together from two pieces. It's almost always one piece, with one seam, not two.

So if you want to paint realistic looking seamed fabric into your SL clothing, by all means do so, but don't ever think that not matching your texturing across the template seams is in any way the same thing. It's absolutely not.


Maybe not, but they do adhere to the description stated above.


The pattern from one side of the seam to the other doesn't have to match up, no. But the seam itself does need to follow certain principles, including the laws of physics and rules of functionality, which have nothing whatsoever to do with the template seams.


Sure, it may be reflected in the price, but so what? Quality SHOULD cost more than crap.


Yes, it matters to me. When I see texturing that is not seamless (whether it's clothing or anything else), that says to me right away that the artist is either lazy or just not very good. Maybe other people don't notice, or don't care even if they do, but I notice and to me it's very important.

Hi Chosen,

I understand your points and appreciate your response and opinion. But can you clarify what you mean when you say:



What rules of functionality and laws of physics are you referring to when it comes to painted clothes, as opposed to say, prim skirts, collars, cuffs etc?

Good quesiton. Sorry if I was unlear. Prim skirts, collars, and cuffs don't have anything to do with what I meant. What I was talking about was making textures look like the way clothing actually looks in RL, using sensible seam-work to provide the illusion that it's made of real cloth with real weight to it instead of just looking like chopped up images that happen to be divided in a certain way just because of how the templates were sliced. I'll try to explain with some examples.

On any real garment that has sleeves, the seam where the sleeve meets the body portion almost always runs from the arm pit to the outermost corner of the shoulder top. However, on the av template, that same seam runs to a point about 3/5 of the way between the shoulder and the neck. No real garment would ever be made this way, as it would make it very difficult for the wearer to move his or her arms freely, and it would put all kinds of weird stresses on the cloth, which would make for some pretty unsightly wrinkles.

Another example would be the out-seam on pants. On a real pant leg, the out-seam runs in a straight line from the waist to the cuff. On the SL leg template though, the out-seam is only straight until it reaches a point just above the knee. Then it curves forward a bit before bends sharply backward at the knee. After that, it curves agan to somewhat follow the profile of the calf muscle before finally curving the other way again to hit the ankle. There's just no way a real pant leg could do that. It's physically impossible.

The in-seam is almost as bad.

Or how about the seam that runs down the side of the collar? Ever seen one of those on a real shirt? I certainly haven't.

The only seam that makes any functional sense at all is the waist. All of the others would be either impossible or highly impractical in RL.

So, as I said, if you want your garments to have seams, paint seams onto them that make sense. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that the nonsensical way the templates happen to have been chopped up is in any way analogous to how fabric seams actually work.

Make sense?

Ooooh I work on seams a lot. I am extremely seam-aware lol. When I find the most wonderful texture in the world that can't be made seamless in Photoshop, then I still throw it away. I expect the same when I buy things, or else I will never buy. It's true: when textures and seams are not absolutely perfect, the creator is either lazy or bad. And lazy is bad too.

Try making a pair of jeans. You will learn more about seams and how parts of the texture position themselves than you ever imagined. The inside thigh and crotch areas of the map are so painfully unintuitive. *sobs*

I couldn't agree more on some of your points--especially being a designer, your point #2 is spot on. It is imperative that a nice ad is in place for a company--if you have taken enough time to construct a storefront and a product, you certainly should do yourself justice and put a high quality ad in place--whether you do it yourself or hire someone...make sure it's slick.

I think the lack of gray area between good designers and bad is a natural thing. We choose to ignore the gray area because mediocrity is boring...at least bad isn't boring. Being in the middle won't scare anyone away, but it certainly won't stand out. My point being...there are all level of talent out there, however, it is the best and worst that stand out. With this said, I think the balance is a nice design-ecosystem. I feel there are plenty of talented builders and designers out there if you know where to look--it's the consumers fault if they get bamboozled or are too lazy to find the quality merch.

Not everyone is a Herman Miller. Not everyone is a Rembrandt. Not everyone is WETA.

If you have quality product and marketing--there are myriad reasons. And you deserve to benefit because of it.

Cheers.

I guess I'm forced to disagree. You're implying that there is a bell curve and we all just ignore the big hump in the middle. My own experience tells me quite the opposite. That there are a very small number of designers that are making things of any reasonable quality level at all. And the difference between those and everyone else is starkly apparent. Nor do I think that has to do with being Rembrandt. I'm not rembrandt. But I put enough time into my skin that, eventually, it was good. Personally, I think it has more to do with dreams of making a quick buck, preying on new and ignorant users by selling rehashed free stuff or goods you've made in about 3 seconds by grabbing an image from google and slapping it on the template. I think excaserbating that is the fact that there is no BBB, effective word of mouth, or other ways in which such businesses would find their income streams impeded. And finally, many users (including myself), see a store here as a supplement to our income and not a business. So awful business practices don't shut down the stores because they are artificially supported by visa cards.

I'm a bit confused by your viewpoint.

I wasn't saying that the middle ground is being ignored (completely)--I was saying that what stands out most are the best and the worst--mediocrity is boring. And yes, there is a great leap between highly skilled and total oblivion, and sometimes consumers just don't care what they are buying...

So, you're saying, "...it has more to do with dreams of making a quick buck, preying on new and ignorant users by selling rehashed free stuff or goods you've made in about 3 seconds..."

I'm not sure this sort of business will ever truly be respected. Yes, it may make a profit, but to those of us 'hip to the groove', it will never be touted upon, nor will it ever sit atop a pedestal and be admired. This goes for all products, businesspersons, and talent.

Those of us that care, know the difference. And those of us that care, wouldn't have it any other way. It's not about fame and glory; it's about taking pride in your work, and knowing that you're walking the path of righteousness. If you don't care about any of this, well then I'm just throwing a penny in an empty well.

Agreed there

Oh well right away, I've never been "hip to the groove *laughs*. No seriously, You are certainly right that the hoards and hoards of junk sellers out there will never go anywhere. But what they do accomplish is to clog the search systems making two things extremely hard. As a customer, I find it very hard to find anything to buy that is NOT from Blaze, Nyte'nDay, or NickyRee. Now, intuitively, I *know* that there are good and less famous designers out there. But they are so buried under the weeds of garbage that I have all but given up on locating them. Too bad since I spend a fair amount of money in SL and just LOVE supporting up and coming designers. It doesn't help that most of the fashion bloggers are also not exactly critical. I am honestly at a loss as a consumer in terms of how to connect with the very designers I would most like to.

The second problem is really the same as the first but from the up and coming designer's point of view. I had the luxury of making my work with no expectation or requirement of selling anything. Not all are in that same position. So when you look critically at the SL economy and ask yourself, what exactly am I going to do to somehow rise above the noise and get noticed, there is so much noise that it is nigh unto impossible. Certainly not possible on the strength of your product line alone. So, the mind then naturally turns to paid advertisements in the fashion blogs and magazines and most especially, camping chairs. Afterall, the search box and traffic numbers are still a dominant in terms of how customers find designers.

Now, I am certainly well heeled enough and also savvy enough in RL to build a successful business plan and execute to it. There is no question that I could hit all fronts.. paid advertisements, free submittals to the fashion blogs, spam the forums, hire people to advertise in world, scatter signs about, etc. I have no questions how *I* could get my name out there. What I'm really concerned about though is how do other people do it? People that perhaps cannot afford such startup costs.

See my comments above. *I* care, not just in my own work, but also in the things I buy. If I had my druthers, every single linden I spent would be going to support a designer with uncompomising quality who WASN'T alread Blaze Colombia or her ilk (no offense against Blaze, I just don't think they need the help). I just have no idea how to turn that desire into reality given the current state of affairs. And therein is the nature of my mini-rant.

Now, given that we have well and truly derailed this thread *laughs*, How about responses from here on in go in private messages in the interests of being friendly to the other denizens of the texture forum.

my skin has no seams though... i'd prefer to get an even one lol

I've never had a seamed skin in world o.o

Maybe its just me

i had one horrible
i bought it for 2450 linden
aaaaarghhhhh
the poster looked nice... couldn't have guessed

Brandi, you are forgetting one thing, bad is a very subjective term and this isnt reality. I find that people who suggest what you are, are taking it this way too seriously.
Yes, making the textures match is important to produce quality. But quality in clothes CANNOT be defined by reality. What happens if all your small group leave? Then what? AS along as the ad shows the product, the price and the premissions and doesn't give me a headache doing that its all good.
I have a program that makes seamless textures. I also have Bodypaint3d for clothes.
But I am here to have fun, to socialize and to create stuff. I don't really care about making money because making money here is like walking into a Vegas Casino and hitting the million dollar jackpot.

So I say when you look at an ad and you in reality are stressing out like you are in a real store, you are taking it too seriously.
Remember a single $L is worth less than a penny. Buy it.

.

sloppy work is inexcusable at any price

thats what templates are for!

even the most well known, and the most experienced designers
can be guilty of incredible sloppiness, whether they do the work themselves,
or have others do it for them ...

and just because a shop or a designer has been around SL
for years and is well known, does not make them the best.

some designers base their success only on the size and volume of their business ...
others base their success on their designs, and some on their attention to details ...
whereas few of them base their success on all three.

i have bought stuff "from the so-called best", that was so bad
i had to remake it myself ...

thats how i began making the few things i have made ...
out of frustration and dismay at having been ripped off,
due to the most obvious of sloppiness by the best of them

and some of their graphic mistakes, and prim settings are laffable

as Brandi stated, you would think that a designer would try on
what they make before they sell it ... if for no other reason than to
make sure what they are selling isnt totally ridiculous.

of course, its buyer beware, and in addition to that,
you dont really "own" the stuff you buy.

from my experience, i rarely buy something that isnt at least
modifiable, or copyable as well ...

and a dealer has my continued business, when on occasion,
after i buy something, they send me a modifiable version, if i need it.

however in defense of designers, but only in a small way,
i have noticed, even from my own creations,
that if i alter the height or shape of my Avatar too much,
which i sometimes have to do to adjust to what im wearing,
like an SL generic skirt, or a prim skirt & outfit,
the seams and lines may not connect as before,
and the fitting might be off as well

depending on size and shape of an Avatar can affect how clothing looks.

so when im deciding on an outfit, i also look at the Avatar in the ad photo
wearing the outfit ... and consider, if it looks ok on that Avatar shape and size,
will it also look ok on mine.


designers cant make clothing to look right on all Avatars and all Shapes,
thats asking too much ... but it is not asking too much that they pay attention
to the most basic of details.


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