Clothing and Resolution
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Rose Evans
Registered User
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 55
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09-13-2006 00:05
During my creation of all the shirts I have up for sale I have been forgetting to convert them down to 512x512 and got to wondering at the rez issues I have with them might be due to them being 1024x1024. Asked around on SL and I get mixed answers, so I come here for the straight answer, I *hope*.  Some say yes, I should convert the whole mess down to 512x512 and reuplaod and retexture my shirts. Others say no bother, SL auto converts the 1024x1024 textures down to 512x512 when used as a clothing template. So which is it, do I spend 100s of Lindens reuploading the whole mess as 512x512 or it doesn't matter? What's the straight dope, besides me that is?  Thanks! Rose
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HtF Visconti
Registered User
Join date: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 123
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09-13-2006 01:35
No idea but it is easy to find out  Since you should have full perms on your own textures double click on one, then export it via the file menu and check what size it is on the hard disk. If it is indeed 512 by 512 (which I doubt) then you're set and have saved lots of $L, if it is the original resolution ....
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Samantha Samiam
Registered User
Join date: 6 Sep 2004
Posts: 53
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09-13-2006 03:58
I am fairly sure he was asking if he should re-upload his files as 512 or leave them at 1024. In another thread, someone said 1024 is bad, 512 is better for clothing since it rezzes faster, even if you lose some fine detail. Some, as he mentioned, say it doesn't matter. Guess a definitive answer is what we are looking for.
We need a Linden who is a texture specialist!
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Rose Evans
Registered User
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 55
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09-13-2006 04:47
Right, some say when it becomes clothing texture (guessing when you drop it into the texture box in Apperance ) it converts down automagically or some such. So it doesn't matter if they are 1024x1024, just longer upload times. But others say no no, convert them down to 512x512 as it doesn't so the clothing will rez better. Confusing as all heck, need a straight answer. Rose From: Samantha Samiam I am fairly sure he was asking if he should re-upload his files as 512 or leave them at 1024. In another thread, someone said 1024 is bad, 512 is better for clothing since it rezzes faster, even if you lose some fine detail. Some, as he mentioned, say it doesn't matter. Guess a definitive answer is what we are looking for.
We need a Linden who is a texture specialist!
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Cottonteil Muromachi
Abominable
Join date: 2 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,071
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09-13-2006 05:20
If you upload it as a 1024x1024, it remains as is, since its just a regular texture.
When it appears on your avatar, I think the server bakes everything you're wearing into one single image that is 512x512 and sends it to you. That means, if you're wearing a jacket, and some shirt underneath, and they are of various sizes, it will still get baked into one gummed up 512x512 texture.
If indeed the server is really the one doing the resizing, that would mean that you're only sent the smaller baked version. So I assume it won't incur much lag from loading/rezzing.
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Eloise Pasteur
Curious Individual
Join date: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,952
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09-13-2006 05:26
The honest answer is, we're not 100% sure.
Those that have been known to use interceptors say that your appearance is three textures (head, upper body, lower body as you might expect) with a composite of the clothing layers stuck together on the body over the skin as appropriate. These textures are 512 X 512.
The process to do this is not publicly known that I recall. However, common sense suggests two things, which will cost you money I'm afraid.
If you resize to 512 X 512 yourself, then you get to control the resizing and actually know what the end result will be precisely.
Also, if the clothes texture is 512 X 512 there is no internal resizing before mapping the layers together (however it's actually done) and although we don't know how efficient that resizing process is, we can predict it will take a little bit of processing time. Each clothes texture might only take a fraction of a millisecond, but I've got outfits that include all 8 clothes layers, add 30 avies in a shop or a club and you're ramping up the load wherever it hits. Even if it's a single jacket layer as (say) a 1-piece swimsuit you've got extra load.
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Namssor Daguerre
Imitates life
Join date: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,423
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09-13-2006 06:21
Always upload avatar textures at 512x512. It is true that no matter what the size of the uploaded texture, the server still has to bake it into a single composite of all clothing and tattoo texture layers at 512x512. It's also true, as previously mentioned, that controling the resizing on your end will result in a superior 512x512 texture. Photoshop will do a better job of interpolating pixel data than the SL server because it has more specific options for how that is done (bicubic in PS7 and bicubic with normal, smooth, and sharp in PSCS2). Your textures will still need to go through lossy J2C compression, but that is a limitation that can't be avoided if you are uploading textures to the SL servers. One thing I'm not clear on is - How many iterations of lossy compression do avatar textures go through? If they go through at least one upon upload (100% sure on that) do avatar textures perhaps undergo another during the baking process?
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Shep Korvin
The Lucky Chair Guy
Join date: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 305
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09-13-2006 07:01
AIUI, Texture baking is performed client side... so I think the process goes something like this:
1) You put on a shirt 2) The texture for the shirt - and individual textures for anything you're currently wearing on the top half of your body (e.g. underwear, skin) - are downloaded from the asset server to _your_ client. 3) Your client bakes all these textures together into a single 512x512 texture, representing the current view of the top half of your body. 4) This single baked texture is uploaded to the asset server* 5) Anybody who can see you in-world is sent this 512x512 "baked" texture, and that's what's used to render the upper part your avatar on other folk's screens. They never get the 1024 version.
(repeat entire process for head and lower body).
This chain of events is largely conjecture and popular wisdom... but if it's true, then having your clothing textures stored in 1024x1024 would slow down step (2), and not really give you any benefit; a 1024 texture is four times larger than a 512 texture.
*apparently one of the improvements about to be implemented is storing the baked textures at sim level. I guess the implication there is that slow avatar texture rezzing has as much to do with crappy asset server performance as anything else.
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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09-13-2006 07:51
Re-upload as 512 x 512 max size. As stated above, your self-scaled textures will look better.
In my own clothing making work, I found that especially on a low-end system, clothes accidentally made using a 1024 x 1024 texture took MUCH longer to rez for the person wearing it. So do your part to reduce "Grey Life", and use smaller texture sizes! Your customers will be much happier with the faster rendering times.
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Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
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elka Lehane
WOWAWIWA
Join date: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 983
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09-13-2006 07:55
I create and save my .PSD as 1024 x 1024 then save as .TGA as 512 x 512. No matter what people tell you, do that. A LOT of us absolutely cannot rez 1024 x 1024 stuff inworld. I am not the one to tell you why, I know or understand nothing about that LOL! But if you want everyone (mostly) to be able to rez your stuff, make it 512  And we're only talking clothes here. For prims it's any power of 2, under 1024 unless you use a huge prim, etc. There are tons of tips and tricks, need to ask right people!
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Skye McArdle
Resident Dragon
Join date: 26 May 2006
Posts: 132
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09-13-2006 08:27
I tried that experiment once (once was all it took lol). Uploaded the same shirt texture at 1024 and at 512. 1024 just would NOT rez past the blurry.. kinda see what the main color of it is stage. The 512 snapped on within a few seconds. Do yourself a favor especially if it is an item for sale.. reupload at 512, then count it as a learning experience. Multiple benefits, you get to control the quality as it is resized, fewer resources used client side to bake (if it will bake at all) and last but certainly not least.. your customers won't be complaining that the things they buy from you won't rez.
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Candide LeMay
Registered User
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 538
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09-13-2006 10:43
The texture compression SL uses is progressive (so you can see textures become sharper and sharper as they load) and I suspect what happens is the texture baker takes the 512x512 progressive step of a 1024x1024 texture, instead of resizing it to 512x512. Sounds weird, but it would explain the blurriness (and hey, this is SL so weird is pretty much normal  ).
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"If Mel Gibson and other cyberspace writers are right, one day the entire internet will be like Second Life." -- geldonyetich
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Rose Evans
Registered User
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 55
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09-13-2006 11:38
<skims though all the replys and wees> Ok, so I'll redo them to 512x512 but... If what you are saying is true, that everything is put together into a single 512x512 and pasted on, then the shirt really is 256x256, pants/skirt 256x256 , etc? So might as well aim for getting details right at 256x256 instead? Rose From: Namssor Daguerre Always upload avatar textures at 512x512. It is true that no matter what the size of the uploaded texture, the server still has to bake it into a single composite of all clothing and tattoo texture layers at 512x512. It's also true, as previously mentioned, that controling the resizing on your end will result in a superior 512x512 texture. Photoshop will do a better job of interpolating pixel data than the SL server because it has more specific options for how that is done (bicubic in PS7 and bicubic with normal, smooth, and sharp in PSCS2). Your textures will still need to go through lossy J2C compression, but that is a limitation that can't be avoided if you are uploading textures to the SL servers. One thing I'm not clear on is - How many iterations of lossy compression do avatar textures go through? If they go through at least one upon upload (100% sure on that) do avatar textures perhaps undergo another during the baking process?
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Namssor Daguerre
Imitates life
Join date: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,423
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09-13-2006 11:53
From: Rose Evans <If what you are saying is true, that everything is put together into a single 512x512 and pasted on, then the shirt really is 256x256, pants/skirt 256x256 , etc? So might as well aim for getting details right at 256x256 instead? Rose You're still dealing with 3 texture maps, (head, upper body, lower body) each at 512x512. Think of the skin, undershirt, shirt, jacket on the upper body, for example, as separate layers inside of a single 512x512 file. Nothing is shrinking. Target all your file sizes for 512x512.
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Lina Pussycat
Texture WizKid
Join date: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 731
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09-13-2006 13:04
*scratches head...* Ok well I've done experiments with stuff i've made vs stuff from a bigger named clothing store. I used 1024x1024 (not really sure what the stores was) But my stuff ended up rezzing faster for some reason =/ go figure.... Anyways yes 512x512 is better to upload at if you want to save people the trouble of uploading it. Its not just a low end computer its usually that tied in with the internet..... 1024 will load ok depending on the amount of data actually in the pic file..... But again your better off just using 512.
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