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Lessig Unedited Transcript |
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Csven Concord
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Join date: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,015
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01-18-2006 20:45
Just a quick note to let people who missed Lawrence Lessig's talk that I've posted an unedited transcript of the repeater chat. Find it here: Text File
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Gabe Lippmann
"Phone's ringing, Dude."
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 4,219
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01-18-2006 20:49
Nice. I missed the beginning.
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
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01-18-2006 21:04
Lawrence Lessig Discussion - Part 1 of 4
Philip Linden: Oops here's Lawrence! Hamlet Linden: Indeed, he's here! Jesse Linden: IM saying everyone Jesse Linden: lets just say my home in SL comes equipped with a chemical shower Hamlet Linden: Thanks for coming, everyone. If you have questions for Professor Lessig, please IM them to me-- and only me-- and I'll pose them as time and propriety permits. Hamlet Linden: So let's begin... Hamlet Linden: About three years ago, Stanford legal scholar Lawrence Lessig stood before the nine Justices of the United States Supreme Court. Hamlet Linden: From one perspective, he was arguing over the interpretation of a single sentence in the US Constitution. Hamlet Linden: From another angle, he was fighting for the very future of ideas and art-- in America, and by extension, the world. Hamlet Linden: His most recent book, *Free Culture*, is a story of that ongoing battle-- what led up to it, how he fought it, and where we can go in the aftermath of the court's decision. Hamlet Linden: And though it may seem strange, it's actually quite appropriate that he takes his case here (so to speak) here, in avatar form. As we'll soon find out. Hamlet Linden: So ladies and gentlemen, from the office of Linden Lab in San Francisco and this hilltop auditorium of Pooley, please join me in welcoming Professor Lawrence Lessig. Coffee Linden: /me claps Philip Linden: clap Philip Linden: clap Hamlet Linden: Before I turn you over to Philip Linden, I wanted to start off with a few questions on *Free Culture* to set the context. Hamlet Linden: Let's say you get in the elevator with Senator Orrin Hatch and Daniel Robert Glickman, the new head of the MPAA-- what point from *Free Culture* would you convey to them, in the short time you have? Philip Linden: We all do that at least once  Lawrence Lessig: So the thing Orrin should be asked is this: how come the gov't is spending so much energy regulating creativity? Where's the republican in that? Lawrence Lessig: And second, how come spending so much time protecting this powerful industry against competition, rather than embracing competition as the way we find a new world. two quick questions before floor 3 Hamlet Linden: Great. Hamlet Linden: Now let's say Senator Hatch and Glickman get out, and in comes a kid who likes to download lots of music and movies via p2p-- what point from *Free Culture* would you convey to *him*? Lawrence Lessig: i don't have anything to tell the kid. Lawrence Lessig: the kid is teaching us something. Lawrence Lessig: if you look at the creativity kids have demonstrated using digital technology, that's enough to say that we, Lawrence Lessig: professors Lawrence Lessig: lawyers Lawrence Lessig: congressmen Lawrence Lessig: should listen, not lecture. Hamlet Linden: But what do you tell him he wants to get involved with teaching us more? Lawrence Lessig: well, he should want to teach us more Lawrence Lessig: because we Lawrence Lessig: or they Lawrence Lessig: government Lawrence Lessig: is quite good a destroying. Lawrence Lessig: and the one thing they seem most keen to do is to use the law Lawrence Lessig: to protect dying industries Lawrence Lessig: and in that way Lawrence Lessig: destroy new worlds. Lawrence Lessig: so to speak Hamlet Linden: It's been nearly two years since *Free Culture* was published. Philip Linden: Potentially literally! Hamlet Linden: What significant changes in the world of media and the entertainment industry have you seen since then, and how have they enhanced or modified the arguments you were making in the book? Lawrence Lessig: the explosion of what I call Lawrence Lessig: but would love a better word for Lawrence Lessig: the "read write internet" Lawrence Lessig: the key thing we're seeing now Lawrence Lessig: is the internet used to create and remix culture. Lawrence Lessig: the focus 2 years ago was p2p filesharing Lawrence Lessig: but the focus today is the stuff that happens here Lawrence Lessig: or in mashups Lawrence Lessig: or with remixed music Lawrence Lessig: or anime music videos. Lawrence Lessig: this capacity and this creativity is extraordinary Lawrence Lessig: and yet the "war" that that copyright industry is waging to against "piracy" Lawrence Lessig: will kill it. at least as a legitimate part of culture Hamlet Linden: Tell me a little bit about pleading the Eldred case before the Supreme Court in 2002, and how difficult to was to write about the experience so self-critically. Lawrence Lessig: so eldred began in 1998. Lawrence Lessig: i was a new professor at harvard. Lawrence Lessig: i was a believer in what the law could do. Lawrence Lessig: i saw this law -- the sonny bono copyright term extension act Lawrence Lessig: an act that extended the term of copyright for EXISTING works by 20 years Lawrence Lessig: the 11th extension of existing copyright terms in 40 years Lawrence Lessig: and I compared it to the constitution, which says that Lawrence Lessig: congress has the power to PROMOTE THE PROGRESS OF SCIENCE by securing FOR LIMITED TIMES Lawrence Lessig: exclusive rights to authors for their writings Lawrence Lessig: and it was clear to me that current practice was inconsistent with the framers intent. Lawrence Lessig: now I had clerked for justice scalia Lawrence Lessig: an originalist Lawrence Lessig: a conservative. Lawrence Lessig: and so I knew quite well the philosophy of the conservatives Lawrence Lessig: and they believe that you interpret and apply the constitution as it was originally inteded Lawrence Lessig: intended Lawrence Lessig: so I thought: great, we go to the supreme court, we show them this law and the original constitution, Lawrence Lessig: and the conservatives will agree with us because of originalism Lawrence Lessig: and the liberals will agree with us because of the burden on free speech Lawrence Lessig: and we'll get 9 (actually 8 -- there's one really pro copyright person on the court) on our side. Lawrence Lessig: it was insanely naive. Lawrence Lessig: when we got close to the argument at the supreme court Lawrence Lessig: a friend Lawrence Lessig: a law professor Lawrence Lessig: said to me Lawrence Lessig: so I'm convinced you're right on the law. Lawrence Lessig: but tell me the last time the supreme court voted against all the money in the world. Lawrence Lessig: i told him he was being really boring. that's not how the court thinks. Lawrence Lessig: he understood something more than I. Hamlet Linden: In your argument before the Supreme Court, Justice Kennedy asks you for empirical evidence that extending copyright has impeded cultural progress. Hamlet Linden: You keep the focus on a point of Constitutional law, though you now regret not citing such evidence. If you could do it over again, what empirical evidence would you give Justice Kennedy and the Court? Lawrence Lessig: yea. Lawrence Lessig: it was a good question. Lawrence Lessig: the problem is it's hard to point to evidence as in stuff people have counted. Lawrence Lessig: but things since then have made the issue clearer. Lawrence Lessig: think for example about the google book search project. Lawrence Lessig: google wants to index 18,000,000 books Lawrence Lessig: and make them searchable. Lawrence Lessig: if the book is in copyright, you'll get a "snippet" around the search Lawrence Lessig: if it is not incopyright, then you casn see the full book. Lawrence Lessig: of the 18m books, 16% are out of copyright. Lawrence Lessig: 9% are in copyright andin print. Lawrence Lessig: that means 75% are in copyright, but out of print. Lawrence Lessig: now the publishers say you need to ask permission before you index these books. Lawrence Lessig: but how do you ask the 75% of 18m authors when we have no list of copyright owners, no record of who owns the rights, no way to track down current claimants at all Lawrence Lessig: the copyright system is the most inefficient property system known to man Lawrence Lessig: yet it stands in the way -- and now threatens Google with a huge law suit -- because the term gets extended and extended. Lawrence Lessig: the term for the framers was 14 years, renewable once. Lawrence Lessig: it isnow life of the author plus 70 years -- which for someone creating in the way irving berlin did, would be 140 years. Lawrence Lessig: so, justice kennedy , does blocking access to 50-75% of the books in our tradition constitute a burden on our culture? Hamlet Linden: If you said all that, do you think the case could have turned your way? Lawrence Lessig: people who know stuff say there was no way to win. Lawrence Lessig: i still think that two things could have changed their view Lawrence Lessig: first., I should have been meaner to the conservatives Lawrence Lessig: I should have held their feet to the fire of their own principles -- directly telling them that they couldn't consistently decide Lawrence Lessig: that congress was free to make up whatever term they wanted Lawrence Lessig: and that it was limited in all the ways the conservatives have limited congress. Lawrence Lessig: it should have been framed as a -- you choose, principled or political, question. Lawrence Lessig: the second thing would have been to make the case less about mickey mouse, and more about the rest of culture that gets locked up just so we can protect mickey. Lawrence Lessig: probably 90% of the creativity that had its copyright extended is not commercially available at all. Lawrence Lessig: for creativity like films, that means that that works is totally inaccessible Lawrence Lessig: and when the copyrighhts for those films expire, the works themselves will literally have expired -- film decays; it will be dust before the copyrighr endxs. Lawrence Lessig: the point is they should recognize that they're choosing -- either help mickey, or help preserve and make accessible our culture - at least on terms different from the terms that hollywood offers Hamlet Linden: OK, I think that sets the framework for the book-- I want to turn over the floor to Philip to let him discuss your relation to SL and other themes of these ideas impacting with virtual worlds. Philip? Philip Linden: Thanks Hamlet! Philip Linden: Lawrence, it is such an honor to have you here! Lawrence Lessig: it is great fun Philip Linden: Our world, SL, Philip Linden: is an opportunity to take a look at the rules that govern society Philip Linden: and to the extent that we are able, Philip Linden: re-write them as best seems to fit us. Philip Linden: And Free Culture is such an incredible explanation Philip Linden: of some of the things we need to hold dear in this consideration. Philip Linden: For those here who don't know. Philip Linden: Lawrence has affected the history of SL already... Philip Linden: We had a meeting in 2003 to think about the future of SL Philip Linden: and Lawrence was kind enough to attend, Philip Linden: and to give us his thoughts on IP, land, and how things should be in SL Philip Linden: Shortly thereafter we gave IP rights to creators, Lawrence Lessig: bravo Philip Linden: and switched to our system of land ownership Philip Linden: clearly, looking at the last 2 years, Philip Linden: this was the right call. Lawrence Lessig: as every free society has discvered Philip Linden: Yes! Philip Linden: We have realized, more and more over time, Philip Linden: how much SL is a developing nation, Philip Linden: and how, it we want to succeed, Philip Linden: we must make the choices which fastest and best advance us all Philip Linden: we must make the choices which fastest and best advance us all Philip Linden: these sorts of choices are at the heart of Lawrence's work. Philip Linden: One thing that I have often said about SL, Philip Linden: is that it is a kind of time machine Philip Linden: a place where innovation is rewarded, Philip Linden: or perhaps ideas fail, Philip Linden: or businesses rise and then decline Philip Linden: in a fraction of 'real world' time Philip Linden: What I was struck by in reading Free Culture Philip Linden: is how important this idea on time becomes! Philip Linden: By extending copyrights, Philip Linden: we are going in exactly the opposite direction. Philip Linden: Slowing progress in the real world. Philip Linden: In the same way we can hopefully speed it here. Philip Linden: In the beginning of Free Culture, Philip Linden: you tell the story of air rights... Philip Linden: of how overflying property is a public good. Lawrence Lessig: yes a problem you've dealt with Philip Linden: This is SO relevant and topical in SL. Philip Linden: Something we've all struggled with... Philip Linden: how to balance freedom and ownership with progress and benefit for all. Philip Linden: I wanted to ask you a question, Philip Linden: that I think folks in SL will really relate to, Philip Linden: and is an example of where we are at the edge of the envelope Philip Linden: I interviewed a person for a job at LL the other day Philip Linden: and she was telling me how one of her dreams for using SL Philip Linden: was to build the sets of movies... Philip Linden: was to build the sets of movies... Philip Linden: and allow people to act out the endings in a different way... Philip Linden: to be a part of the movie. Philip Linden: But then, of course, Philip Linden: she paused... Philip Linden: and said.. "oh., but wouldn't that be illegal" Philip Linden: I think she really didn't know. Philip Linden: I think I don't really know. Philip Linden: And that is what your book is all about. Philip Linden: I don't think that exactly motivated her to go in there and start working on 'finding Nemo' Philip Linden: What do you think would happen to her if she did? Lawrence Lessig: So 2nd life is prominent _____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
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01-18-2006 21:04
Lawrence Lessig Discussion - Part 2 of 4
Lawrence Lessig: it would get shut down Lawrence Lessig: it is a totally simple applicaiton of existing law Lawrence Lessig: you're publishing a derivative of the movie Lawrence Lessig: you need permission from the movie owner. Lawrence Lessig: but what the lawyers don't think about Lawrence Lessig: is how much of ordinary life they're rendering illegal Lawrence Lessig: by this way of thinking Lawrence Lessig: because as life moves online Lawrence Lessig: we should have the SAME FREEDOMS (at least) Lawrence Lessig: that we had in real life Lawrence Lessig: there's no doub that in real life Lawrence Lessig: you could act out a movie Lawrence Lessig: or a different ending to a movie Lawrence Lessig: there's no doubt that would have been "free" of copyright in real live Lawrence Lessig: life Lawrence Lessig: but as we move online Lawrence Lessig: things that were before were free Lawrence Lessig: now are regulated. Lawrence Lessig: that's why people here are so important to this debate Lawrence Lessig: you have got to make the (clueless) politicians aware Lawrence Lessig: of what 19th century law is doing to the 21st century Lawrence Lessig: they don't get it Lawrence Lessig: they think they're stopping "pirates" when they stop all sorts of creativity. Philip Linden: Given how fast things change in SL Philip Linden: how long would you make copyrights and patents hold? Lawrence Lessig: great question Lawrence Lessig: no idea. Lawrence Lessig: the issue is how long do they need to be Lawrence Lessig: to give the kind of incentive they're needed to give Lawrence Lessig: i like the idea that people here Lawrence Lessig: create and then can exploit that creativity Lawrence Lessig: out of world too Lawrence Lessig: and one complicatoin you might have is that in world Lawrence Lessig: if copyrights are different from out of world Philip Linden: right Lawrence Lessig: then you'll have something protected in real space Lawrence Lessig: not protected in world. Lawrence Lessig: but maybe that's fine. Lawrence Lessig: i don't know enough to say how things should be here. Lawrence Lessig: but I do have a sense of the questions you should ask Philip Linden: I agree that one key question is the duration of value of a work Philip Linden: perhaps this is something we will be able to see statistically, Philip Linden: given that our world here is so transparent Philip Linden: given that our world here is so transparent Philip Linden: given that our world here is so transparent Philip Linden: given that our world here is so transparent Philip Linden: given that our world here is so transparent Philip Linden: given that our world here is so transparent Philip Linden: given that our world here is so transparent Philip Linden: given that our world here is so transparent Philip Linden: given that our world here is so transparent Philip Linden: and better inform the debate. Philip Linden: Well, I probably can't think of questions as good as those from all of you. Philip Linden: And, in true SL style, Philip Linden: I am currently sitting in a restaurant in austin texas Lawrence Lessig: now I'm really hungry Philip Linden: with some folks from MIT and a leading Ad Creative agency watching over my shoulder. Philip Linden: Well the food isn't here just yet! Lawrence Lessig: that doesn't help Lawrence Lessig: totally Philip Linden: Hamlet let's take some questions and talk. Lawrence Lessig: one point thought Lawrence Lessig: re duration Lawrence Lessig: it might be fun to experiment Hamlet Linden: Actually I had one related to Code, and then we'll turn to the audience... Lawrence Lessig: different terms, and see how that matters to growth, or creativity. Lawrence Lessig: but ok Lawrence Lessig: code Hamlet Linden: Let's talk a little about that section of *Code* you're rewriting for the revision, that deals with virtual worlds. Lawrence Lessig: shoot Philip Linden: Yes it's a good point. Hamlet Linden: In it, you describe an online world where two neighbors resolve a property dispute by changing the very code of the objects they own-- in this case, virtual poisonous flowers and a virtual dog. Philip Linden: Let an answer evolve. Hamlet Linden: The solution is for the one with the poison flowers to re-code them so they don't kill the other neighbor's dog. Hamlet Linden: You describe this as a positive outcome for both parties, but can you see how it might also be a socially negative outcome, too? Hamlet Linden: Instead of trying to find a compromise that doesn't break the shared reality of their world, they alter it in a way that threatens to break the illusion. Lawrence Lessig: that's a great point Lawrence Lessig: and in fact I interviewed this guy to my left Lawrence Lessig: last week Hamlet Linden: heh Lawrence Lessig: and was trying to get the same idea Lawrence Lessig: when does it make sense to code a solution Lawrence Lessig: and when does it make sense for people to work it out. Lawrence Lessig: i like to think about different "modalities of regulation" Lawrence Lessig: (that's the way a professor needs to talk) Lawrence Lessig: one is code Lawrence Lessig: one is la Lawrence Lessig: law Lawrence Lessig: one is norms Lawrence Lessig: and one is markets. Lawrence Lessig: and the hard question for me is when does a designer decide -- dont' code a solution. let them work it out themselves. Lawrence Lessig: not becauser it is hard to code Lawrence Lessig: maybe it's totally simple Lawrence Lessig: but because people should work it out, not have it solved. Hamlet Linden: Great. OK, let me start going through the audience questions... Philip Linden: It has been a hard problem for us - when to code. Philip Linden: Probably we code too much, in restrospect. Lawrence Lessig: with god sitting in on the conversation Hamlet Linden: Fist , someone named Neptune Rebel offers greetings from Kevin Werbach, apparently a mutual colleague of yours. He also asks a question about your view of fair use with regard to parody. Lawrence Lessig: kevin's a true genius Lawrence Lessig: i've stolen every great idea he had and turned it into a book Lawrence Lessig: (there are still many I havent written yet) Philip Linden: Wow cut and paste this and send to Kevin! Philip Linden: Wow cut and paste this and send to Kevin! Lawrence Lessig: sosueme Hamlet Linden: heh Hamlet Linden: Sandy Sullivan asks... Hamlet Linden: what do you think about a society where some people choose to release designs for free access and modification, and others choose to release designs with restrictions and protections in place? Each creator freely choosing? Lawrence Lessig: i like that society. Lawrence Lessig: i think we need a place were creators choose. Lawrence Lessig: i have my bias about the right choice Lawrence Lessig: but i don't know squat about how creators create, especially here. Lawrence Lessig: so let people decide, Lawrence Lessig: and we'll see whose works spread best. Lawrence Lessig: and whose work gets the most attention. Lawrence Lessig: (sorry I didn't mean to avoid the parody question) Lawrence Lessig: (was there more?) Hamlet Linden: Oh yes, if you can come back to it. Hamlet Linden: Just your view on far use and parody. Hamlet Linden: fair Lawrence Lessig: so copyright law gives you the right to "fair use" Lawrence Lessig: what is that? Lawrence Lessig: who knows. Lawrence Lessig: it is a 4 factor balancing test Lawrence Lessig: that no one can predict up front. Lawrence Lessig: meaning fair use == the right to hire a lawyer. Lawrence Lessig: one supposedly clear example is parody. Lawrence Lessig: but that doesn't mean what you think. Lawrence Lessig: parody is using someone's work to make fun of them. Lawrence Lessig: it is not using someone's work to make fun of someone else. Lawrence Lessig: so, again, a subtle complex distinction that is useless to 90%of the people who need it. Lawrence Lessig: the whole problem here is the law was written to make sure we'd need lawyers to interpret it Lawrence Lessig: good for people like me Lawrence Lessig: (I make lawyers for a living) Lawrence Lessig: but not for creators. Hamlet Linden: heh Philip Linden: This point about how if you don't really know if something is illegal, you won't do it, Philip Linden: is SO important. Lawrence Lessig: totally Lawrence Lessig: especially for venture caps Lawrence Lessig: they won't invest in a law suit Philip Linden: Terrible so far beyond simply being job security for lawyers. Lawrence Lessig: and so much innovation in the valley is law suit bait. Hamlet Linden: Athel Richelieu asks... Hamlet Linden: Do you think that the largest American media conglomerates (Viacom, etc.) role in defining culture is superceding religion? Lawrence Lessig: nay, religion is still pretty damn dangerous. Lawrence Lessig: but when they control the platform of life Lawrence Lessig: then they (not LL) will be the gods of this space. Lawrence Lessig: think about the story from myspace Lawrence Lessig: owned by murdoch Lawrence Lessig: when people would chat in myspace about youTube (which is a very very cool video site) Lawrence Lessig: the machine would block the chats. Lawrence Lessig: that's "freedom" in murdoch land. Hamlet Linden: heh Hamlet Linden: Justice Soothsayer asks... Hamlet Linden: As the author of ?Code and other laws of cyberspace?, could you speak for a bit about SecondLife, where the world if made for us by the ?coders?, that is, the people who create this ?world? Hamlet Linden: What place does democracy and the rule of law have in such a world? Philip Linden: Funny, I don't feel free. Lawrence Lessig: please, tell me. the most interesting thing about the many worlds that are out there is that none really have a vigorous democracy. Lawrence Lessig: maybe that's good Lawrence Lessig: maybe the market is enough of a check Lawrence Lessig: but it is funny that so few have developed this part of life. Lawrence Lessig: maybe that's because we are all so turned off by politics and gov't and "democracy." Lawrence Lessig: it is the one true religious ideal we all have, yet like most religion, we don't really believe it. Philip Linden: There is a passion here is SL... to bypass 'representation' in the democratic process. Philip Linden: I think that drives much of the negative sentiment, appropriately. Lawrence Lessig: yea. Lawrence Lessig: what's so funny is how much we hate politicians Lawrence Lessig: and how completely they miss that fact. Hamlet Linden: Csven Concord asks: What are your thoughts on the interchangeability of tangibility; when real world products are treated the same as current media - digitized, shared online and then fabricated by individuals at home? Lawrence Lessig: so if you mean Lawrence Lessig: when something gets created here Lawrence Lessig: and then gets reproduced in real space. Lawrence Lessig: is that what yuo mean? Hamlet Linden: Still out there Csven? Lawrence Lessig: well, let's assume that's the question Hamlet Linden: Say it out loud, Csven! Lawrence Lessig: I think it's fanstastic. Lawrence Lessig: people separate these worlds too much Lawrence Lessig: we need good examples about how they're linked Hamlet Linden: Nathan Welch asks... Hamlet Linden: With new so-called "personal fabrication" devices, most people could produce real products cheaply in their own homes. Plans to build them could be exchanged online. What commons-minded projects would you advocate in this upcoming field? Lawrence Lessig: complex ones. Lawrence Lessig: the thing strict IP does poorly is complex work Lawrence Lessig: coding, e.g., gnu/gpl Lawrence Lessig: linux Lawrence Lessig: or building complicated biotech stuff. Lawrence Lessig: so use the commons for what its good for Lawrence Lessig: collaboration Lawrence Lessig: think wikipedia Lawrence Lessig: (man, it gets dark fast) Hamlet Linden: heh Philip Linden: 4 hour day! Philip Linden: Everything is faster here. Hamlet Linden: TonyRockyHorror Hauptmann asks... Lawrence Lessig: except my typing Hamlet Linden: a QUESTION for professor lessig: what happens when something that person A creates in world free of protection is taken out of world by person B and then uses outdated law to then protect it out game world? Lawrence Lessig: well here's the point about there not really being two worlds here. Lawrence Lessig: if I create something Lawrence Lessig: and then you take it and exploit it Lawrence Lessig: you're violating my IP (assuming its protectec) Lawrence Lessig: unless I've authorized you to. Lawrence Lessig: so B would have to exploit it on terms I approve Lawrence Lessig: or B's violating my rights. Hamlet Linden: Forseti Svarog asks... Hamlet Linden: Lawrence said he had no idea what the term for IP protection should be. Isn't having a concrete position necessary to get credibility from opponents who think the other side is just about creative theft? Lawrence Lessig: could be Lawrence Lessig: but not in the argument we had in eldred. Lawrence Lessig: in eldred _____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
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01-18-2006 21:04
Lawrence Lessig Discussion - Part 3 of 4
Lawrence Lessig: the question was whether Congress could EXTEND Lawrence Lessig: and existing term. Lawrence Lessig: here's why that makes no sense. Lawrence Lessig: copyright is about creating incentives Lawrence Lessig: incentives are prospective. Lawrence Lessig: no matter what even the US Congress does Lawrence Lessig: it will not give Elvis any more incentive to create in 1954 Lawrence Lessig: so whatever the lenght of copyright should be prospectively Lawrence Lessig: we know it can make no sense of incentives Lawrence Lessig: to extend the term for work that is already created. Lawrence Lessig: second point Lawrence Lessig: i was talking about in world ip Lawrence Lessig: in real space, I'm fairly confident the term is already way too long Lawrence Lessig: in the eldred case Lawrence Lessig: we argued that the current term Lawrence Lessig: gave a copyright owner Lawrence Lessig: 99.98% of the valua of a perpetual term. Lawrence Lessig: justice breyer corrected me. Lawrence Lessig: he said it was 99.99996% of a perpetual term. Lawrence Lessig: whatever. Lawrence Lessig: too long Hamlet Linden: heh Hamlet Linden: Dear Leader asks... Hamlet Linden: Why is it that you want individual creators in SL to have copyright, and celebrate that, but you condemn MySpace for wanting to preserve copyright, or other corporations -- isn't there a contradiction here? Lawrence Lessig: i condemned a decision by programmers of myspace to interfere with the words of its members. that's the only criticism. Rob Bukowski: (via Hamlet Linden) asks... Lawrence Lessig: no, virtual worlds certainly would create work that is covered by ip. Lawrence Lessig: fixed and tangible enough Hamlet Linden: Oh go ahead... Philip Linden: There must be a balance... time to create value for a person, but still maximize value for a society. Lawrence Lessig: yes Lawrence Lessig: that's the balance Hamlet Linden: Do you think legal binding contracts could ever work in a virtual world such as SL? Hamlet Linden: (Rob Bukowski asks.) Jeska Linden: Please be sure to send your questions to Hamlet Linden! Lawrence Lessig: they could Lawrence Lessig: quesiton is whether you want them Lawrence Lessig: this is the same question about whether you want code or norms to regulate behavior. Lawrence Lessig: if you coded contracts here, so they forced things to happen the way promised, that would be very efficient for somethings Lawrence Lessig: but itmight ruin other things. Lawrence Lessig: e.g. Philip Linden: And do we want them globally (made in LL code), or locally (made in scripts) Lawrence Lessig: if I promise you we'll have lunch tomorrow Lawrence Lessig: and then change my mind Lawrence Lessig: it would be an awful world if you could then sue me for breach of contract Lawrence Lessig: somethings ought to be left to people to work out Lawrence Lessig: without the law. Lawrence Lessig: re philip's q Lawrence Lessig: if anywhere, start locally. Hamlet Linden: VonKorf Schnook asks... Philip Linden: Totally agree. Hamlet Linden: in "free culture" you wrote: "But just as a free market is perverted if its property becomes feudal,..." Hamlet Linden: second life is feudal at its core - see all the linden dynastie around - how can culture be free here, Hamlet Linden: where private property creates feudal structures? Lawrence Lessig: so I meant something different Lawrence Lessig: the sense of feudal Lawrence Lessig: was that you couldn't really free the property Lawrence Lessig: of certain burdens. Lawrence Lessig: so the laws at the time Lawrence Lessig: for example Lawrence Lessig: made it impossible to sell the land outside the family Lawrence Lessig: and so on Lawrence Lessig: in free culture Lawrence Lessig: i was thinking of a specific kind of contrast Lawrence Lessig: imagine in real space Philip Linden: Right... your choices here are your own, Lawrence Lessig: if you bought a table Lawrence Lessig: and decided after a month Lawrence Lessig: to move it from your living room Philip Linden: regardless of the lindens. etc. Lawrence Lessig: into your office. Lawrence Lessig: but before you could do that Lawrence Lessig: you had to call the maker of the table Lawrence Lessig: and ask permission Lawrence Lessig: and they would ask -- so, what computer will yuo use on it, because we have an exclusive with apple Lawrence Lessig: or what books will be near it, because penguin is our publisher Lawrence Lessig: well, that's just what the rules are like with copyright Lawrence Lessig: you buy a CD by Sting. Lawrence Lessig: you want to use it in a particular way Lawrence Lessig: you want to remix it, and share that with your friends. Lawrence Lessig: you can't, according to the law, unless you get sting's permission. Lawrence Lessig: trust me, Lawrence Lessig: he doesn't answer his email Hamlet Linden: Gwyneth Llewelyn asks... Hamlet Linden: in the software industry, open source software can be released by a company for a profit, since they are able to provide *services* with the software.Now how can a writer make a living from a book they set in the public domain? Lawrence Lessig: turns out Lawrence Lessig: surprisingly Lawrence Lessig: in lots of ways. Lawrence Lessig: e.g. Lawrence Lessig: in south africa, there is a research council Lawrence Lessig: called something long and too hard to type Lawrence Lessig: they had about 200 researchers Lawrence Lessig: in 15 different programs Lawrence Lessig: they wrote books Lawrence Lessig: which they then sold. Lawrence Lessig: in 2001, they decided to stop publishing books Lawrence Lessig: by default Lawrence Lessig: instead, they published everything for free in electronic form Lawrence Lessig: and then they sold print-on-demand books to anyone who wanted. Lawrence Lessig: in 2005, they evaluated the effect of this. Lawrence Lessig: remember: before they sold everything Lawrence Lessig: now they gave everything away for free Lawrence Lessig: consequence -- book sales had gone up by 300% Lawrence Lessig: for obvious reasons Lawrence Lessig: more people knew about the work Lawrence Lessig: and most people (in real space at least) don't want to read abook Lawrence Lessig: on a computer. Lawrence Lessig: so making it free Lawrence Lessig: made it easier to sell books Lawrence Lessig: I don't think that works always Lawrence Lessig: but it does work for some Lawrence Lessig: and all I argue for is the right of creators to make that choice Hamlet Linden: Dana Bergson asks... Philip was talking about how he wants to further the fast development of SL by giving sensible IP rights to residents while RL Copyrights strangle growth in RL. But how would it possible to decouple IP in SL and RL? Hamlet Linden: Both are heavily intertwined. This is no country with its own laws. Lawrence Lessig: sure Lawrence Lessig: you could have rules for how stuff created here gets used here Lawrence Lessig: what freedoms members of this community have, at least when here. Lawrence Lessig: and in principle, Lawrence Lessig: you could even have rules that controlled how people's ip Lawrence Lessig: created here Lawrence Lessig: would be governed in real space Lawrence Lessig: that's totally possible. Philip Linden: And perhaps common law would help us there... Philip Linden: a few decisions recognizing that things were logically distinct, Philip Linden: or different here than in RL. Hamlet Linden: Daniel Terdiman from CNET is in the office here at LL and he has a question. I wonder if he's familiar with Marvel v. NCSoft and if so, what he thinks of the idea of restricting the kinds of characters players can create. Hamlet Linden: And also, how much of a chill on free content creation is it to have a settlement between those parties that doesn't reveal what the terms are? Lawrence Lessig: i know the case Lawrence Lessig: it is a perfect example of the insanity of these laws. Lawrence Lessig: people ought to be able to create Philip Linden: I LOVED that video on your site Lawrence. Lawrence Lessig: the characters that are part of their life Lawrence Lessig: the idea that Marvel owns these characters in every use they might have Lawrence Lessig: is wrong. IT is just this kind of limit that we need the law to craft. Lawrence Lessig: and yes Lawrence Lessig: it is bad we don't know the settlement Lawrence Lessig: but the settlement wouldn't controlthe law. Lawrence Lessig: we need some good common law cases to describe the freedom here Lawrence Lessig: so others can build on it. Lawrence Lessig: on my blog http://lessig.org/blog Lawrence Lessig: there's a fantastic link to a .mov Lawrence Lessig: about characters being quashed in world Lawrence Lessig: by real space lawyers. Lawrence Lessig: very funny. Hamlet Linden: Philip needs to roll from the restaurant so I wanted to give him time to say a few words before he exits... Philip Linden: The movie really wraps it all up. Hamlet Linden: (And I'll continue on.) Philip Linden: Well... Philip Linden: there is so much to talk about. Philip Linden: But the waitress is hovering near our strange little table. Philip Linden: But the waitress is hovering near our strange little table. Philip Linden: But the waitress is hovering near our strange little table. Philip Linden: And the wi-fi goes not much past the door, I assume. Philip Linden: I really hope Philip Linden: I really hope Philip Linden: I really hope Philip Linden: I really hope Philip Linden: I really hope Philip Linden: I really hope Philip Linden: I really hope Philip Linden: I really hope Philip Linden: I really hope Philip Linden: that as SL grows, Philip Linden: we are able to get more time with Lawrence to help us thing through all these opportunities. Philip Linden: I hope to be able to trade strange stories of this new world Philip Linden: I hope to be able to trade strange stories of this new world Philip Linden: I hope to be able to trade strange stories of this new world Philip Linden: I hope to be able to trade strange stories of this new world Philip Linden: I hope to be able to trade strange stories of this new world Philip Linden: I hope to be able to trade strange stories of this new world Philip Linden: I hope to be able to trade strange stories of this new world Philip Linden: for a bit of his time. Philip Linden: for a bit of his time. Lawrence Lessig: i would really love that Philip Linden: We have a chance, Lawrence Lessig: finally to work on problems Lawrence Lessig: where we could make some progress Philip Linden: if we make the right decisions. Philip Linden: to be a place that really matters and moves forward fast. Philip Linden: Thanks so much for having me here. Philip Linden: Thanks so much for having me here. Philip Linden: And please continue on! Hamlet Linden: Thanks for coming, Philip. Safe trip back to SF! Philip Linden: Take care everyone! Philip Linden: Take care everyone! Philip Linden: Take care everyone! Philip Linden: Take care everyone! Philip Linden: Take care everyone! Philip Linden: Take care everyone! Philip Linden: Take care everyone! Philip Linden: Take care everyone! Philip Linden: Take care everyone! Philip Linden: Take care everyone! Philip Linden: Take care everyone! Philip Linden: Take care everyone! Hamlet Linden: And so, back to the audience questions... Hamlet Linden: Ty Magpie asks... Hamlet Linden: what about duplication of corporate logos in builds that attempt to reconstruct real life places, like RL convenience stores with Pepsi and Coors ads everywhere... could they sue over such someday? Lawrence Lessig: first the link to the movie: http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/cease-and-desist_640.mov Lawrence Lessig: re logos Lawrence Lessig: they could complain it it was unclear who was responsible for the stuff. Lawrence Lessig: so if you start producing Coke and call it Coke, I'm sure they wouldn't be happy. Hamlet Linden: Calix Metropolitan asks... Hamlet Linden: SecondLife states in TOS that they abide by DMCA and offer a way to dispute, IP infractions. The problem is IP infractions can vary and are very hard to prove as code, building and the tools used to make objects is basically the same format. Hamlet Linden: Is there a copyright similar to a Founders Copyright (creative commons oversees this) or something akin to protect scripts that are original in nature and use. Hamlet Linden: Also what about NDA agreements in SL vs RL and subcontracting to members using SL money (which can equate to any currency through Lindex trade)? Lawrence Lessig: so in principle Lawrence Lessig: a copyright is only violated if you Lawrence Lessig: copy someone elses work. Lawrence Lessig: that makes proof very difficulyt Lawrence Lessig: because if there are just a few ways to do something Lawrence Lessig: there's a complicated question about whether it can be copyrighted _____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
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01-18-2006 21:05
Lawrence Lessig Discussion - Part 4 of 4
Lawrence Lessig: and then a hard question to know whether the defendant really did even see the original Lawrence Lessig: that he is alleged to have copied. Lawrence Lessig: I do know that on democracy island (I believe) they were demo-ing Lawrence Lessig: a creative commons tool. Lawrence Lessig: very cool implementation Lawrence Lessig: but we don't have a sl founders copyright. Hamlet Linden: Oh yes, be sure to check out Zarf's CC machine. re agreements: (via Lawrence Lessig) depends on what it says. Lawrence Lessig: but again, Lawrence Lessig: don't assume they are completely separate worlds. Lawrence Lessig: it is, and i'd love to build it here. but we've not yet done that. volunteers? Hamlet Linden: heh Hamlet Linden: Don't everyone jump in at once! Hamlet Linden: OK... Hamlet Linden: jesz Murakami asks... Hamlet Linden: when u (lawrence) talk of warriors --do u see them as pawns in a deeper war --where the creative children of this species may make a healthy species --that the status quo of this is truly feared of? Lawrence Lessig: the status quo is afraid Lawrence Lessig: but I don't think they understand what they are afraid of Lawrence Lessig: they've got quarterly earnings Lawrence Lessig: and no tenure Lawrence Lessig: and new technologies they don't know how to monetize Lawrence Lessig: so they do what everyone threatened does Lawrence Lessig: they attack. Lawrence Lessig: that's why I think it is best to build the alternative without destroying what they're doing Lawrence Lessig: and then let people understand its values. Lawrence Lessig: re building CC here. Lawrence Lessig: you know, we have a program to port licenses into different jurisdictions Lawrence Lessig: maybe we should add 2d life to that list Lawrence Lessig: there are 70 countries now in the process of doing that Lawrence Lessig: why not a vitual jurisdiction? Hamlet Linden: Khalid Xingjian asks... Hamlet Linden: Is boycotting Yahoo! properties an appropriate response to its handling of the Shi Tao case? If so, how can it be made effective? People on Flickr (for example) are more upset about the UAE blocking flickr than its parent company's Shi Tao role. Lawrence Lessig: the yahoo issue is hard. msft, and yahoo are big; they're not the chinese gov't. so Lawrence Lessig: how they decide how to llive there is a complicated question. I don't think a company on its own can choose Lawrence Lessig: to ignore the law. Lawrence Lessig: so either leave or obey the law -- or get the US gov't to back them up for defending rights that ought to be defended. Hamlet Linden: OK, one more question and we should go to the autograph session since that'll probably take awhile. Get into position, Falk, to give us covering fire if need be... Hamlet Linden: OK, last question... Hamlet Linden: Dagny Hemingway asks... Hamlet Linden: Has creative commons been tested yet in a court of law and if not, what do you suppose the issues will be when it happens? Lawrence Lessig: it Lawrence Lessig: has not Lawrence Lessig: but there's nothing really creative or novel in the cc licenses Lawrence Lessig: they are just copyright licenses Lawrence Lessig: following the teaching of the Free Software Foundation. Lawrence Lessig: if someone violates the license, they violate the underlying copyright. Lawrence Lessig: so just as any software or content licenses protects the copyirght owner Lawrence Lessig: cc licenses do as well. Lawrence Lessig: big difference though Lawrence Lessig: is that cc licenses grant freedoms that wouldn't otherwise be there Lawrence Lessig: while ordinary copyright licenses Lawrence Lessig: impose restrictions. Lawrence Lessig: so no test yet Lawrence Lessig: but I'm not worried when one happens. Hamlet Linden: OK, last question from *me* (excerisizing host rights)... Hamlet Linden: You suggest some specific solutions to improve the current copyright regime, but are somewhat general about how the voting public might come to support them. Hamlet Linden: What's the best way of convincing average voters that this is important enough for them to call their Congress person? Lawrence Lessig: the key is for people to see the creativity these spaces invite. Lawrence Lessig: they need to see the stuff their kids do (other than downloading every song ever recorded) Lawrence Lessig: and then they need to see how the law treats that kind of creativity. Lawrence Lessig: my favorite recent example is Anime music videos. Lawrence Lessig: they are extraordinarily creative Lawrence Lessig: amazing stuff Lawrence Lessig: totally illegal under the law as it is. Lawrence Lessig: people have to see the creativity and Lawrence Lessig: then ask -- why is thisillegal. Lawrence Lessig: and when they ask that question, some at least will ask it of Lawrence Lessig: a congressperson. Lawrence Lessig: we should get some congresspeople in this space. Lawrence Lessig: I could get a couple if you want. Hamlet Linden: Absolutely! Lawrence Lessig: I also think Judge Posner should come here. Hamlet Linden: In a heartbeat! Lawrence Lessig: that would help lots -- for people to understand by seeing. Hamlet Linden: Why not Justice Scalia too while we're at it?  Lawrence Lessig: he and I don't talk much anymore... Hamlet Linden: heh Hamlet Linden: OK, let me give the floor to Jeska for organizing the autograph session. Lawrence Lessig: when it was rehnquist, it was the monacale Hamlet Linden: Sorry we couldn't get to all the answers but autographs are anotherepic drama oftimes. Jeska Linden: Hey everyone! Ok, we're going to do the book signing now. Jeska Linden: Here's how it's going to work. Jeska Linden: Everyone interested in getting their book signed please stay seated and I'm going to call up each row and section, starting with those in the Pooley region directly in front of me. Jeska Linden: I'll call up each row, starting with the row closest to the stage. When your row is called, just line up next to me. Jeska Linden: Then one at a time you'll be able to rez your book and have Lawrence sign it. Jeska Linden: Thanks in advance for your patience! Hamlet Linden: Falk, how does this work now? Jeska Linden: We'll get another one for right here - there is a dispensor over across the way on the bookshelves. Lawrence Lessig: that would be very cool Lawrence Lessig: that won't happen Lawrence Lessig: (cool was w/r/t someone from here getting into congress) Lawrence Lessig: Ro? Lawrence Lessig: saw him yesterday Lawrence Lessig: he'll make it soon Formatted and colorized with transcript. _____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
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Gladius Luchador
Secutor
Join date: 8 Feb 2005
Posts: 95
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01-19-2006 01:42
Ulrika! Thank you.
Much easier on the eyes. _____________________
We who are about to die, salute you!
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Starax Statosky
Unregistered User
Join date: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,099
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01-19-2006 02:52
A transcript from Polly, my parrot:
Me: Pretty Polly Polly: Pretty Polly Me: Pieces of eight Polly: Pretty Polly Me: Pieces of eight Polly: Pretty Polly Me: Pieces of eight Polly: Pretty Polly Me: Peices of eight Polly: Pretty Polly Me: Pieces of f*cking eight!! Polly: Pretty f*cking Polly!! Me: * shoots parrot * Polly: Sorry, it's a little hard to follow. I'll let Ulrika colour it. |
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Csven Concord
*
Join date: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,015
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01-19-2006 04:28
Thanks for stating the obvious. Next time I'll think twice.
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Frans Charming
You only need one Frans
Join date: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,847
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01-19-2006 06:23
Thanks Csven and Ulrika, It's a interresting discussion.
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