Ok enough class threads, enough free account threads... here's the deal...

Ok enough class threads, enough free account threads... here's the deal...


The reason all this is happening is because Linden Lab's failure to provide a better solution to the problem of verifying someone is who they say they are when subscribing!


In order to free inhibitions most people really have with giving credit info when it is supposedly never going to be charged, Linden Lab decided to take out the need for it when subcribing.

Linden Lab HAS a valid argument here. People do NOT want to give out their credit card info if an account is supposed to be FREE. It has the sound and feel that Linden Lab may try to scam them. Most people don't know Linden Labs form Adam! Who is Linden Labs?

Joe Q Public, "Pfft! hell if I know! But I'll be damned if I give them my credit card for them to steal my identity, I'm not stupid!"

This is how most responsible adults feel regarding just handing over personal info for apparently NO valid reason. SO Linden Lab was RIGHT in doing away with the requirement, BUT (notice the big but!), They decided NOT to institute any other safeguard in assuring that people are who they say they are when Subscribing. Instead, they left it an open free-for-all where a REAL and HUGE advantage was given to those who are griefers!

This NEW solution isn't really a solution. I've said in a post it may not be perfect but it's SOMETHING.. but is it really? I don't think that Linden Labs has thought out the ramifications of this very well and are actually going off half-cocked with Verified idea.

People who have been griefed only want one (1) thing... STOP THE GRIEF! But at what cost will this token effort (and it is only a token that will do nothing but hurt more than it will help) take to stem the upswing in outright griefing?

It's Linden Lab's responsibility to ensure that people are who they say they are and to come up with intelligent, well throught out means of ensuring this.

On the other hand, if Linden Lab's view is that they don't CARE... that it's YOUR problem if someone griefs you, just report it and we'll maybe look into it if we have the time or manpower to do so, then they should tell us outright this is so.

What say you, Lindens? Are you ever going to clean up this mess or will you let it ROT and cause not only hard feelings and who knows what else?

[edit: This edit brought to you by the numbers 1 & 2]

*huggles*
Sav

1. sOlution

2. Linden Lab (no s)

This message brought to you by your local spelling patrol.

Oh. I thought this would be a 'lack of imagination in content' thread.
Well. I was hoping it would me.
Cause you picked the top argument for the month

Changed the topic to more reflect the contents =)


*huggles*
Sav

*huggles*

Verification has nothing to do with griefing. Please stop confusing the issues.

Thanks.

says you.

pfft!


Sav

Quite a number of free services I have "subscribed" to have used a CC number for age and authenticity verification purposes. None of them I have trusted any less with my CC information than the little hole-in-the-wall restaurant / hardware store / gas station. It is easy to verify that Linden Lab is a large enough and reputable enough company to not be worried that it could be any more of a scam than anything else consumers would blithely hand over their card to in their routine shopping escapades.

As long as they state plainly and unequivocably the terms and rationale about why they need it, people should not be any more concerned about it than giving it to the local Stop'n'Rob quickie mart clerk.



Well, the thing is that there IS a valid reason, and I believe they did explain it pretty well on the sign-up page. I think that I could be considered a responsible adult, and I trusted their rationale. Were they right in removng it? I don't think it was a matter of right or wrong, but I do believe it was a mistake.

Lastly, it's not like there is some huge risk involved. If they said they wouldn't charge you, and you got charged, just dispute the charges with your CC issuer or bank. The CC companies and banks are on the consumer's side, and will not hesitate to invalidate the charges.

Maybe you missed the rest of the announcements. The new TOS states that they are gathering information about the machine you use to play SL. THAT is their anti-griefer tool, not verification. They can gather hash info about anyone, verified or not.

TOS changes


Verification is nothing more than a tool adult content providers in SL can use to assure themselves that the person paying for adult services has provided ID to Lindens. It's only indirectly related to griefer policing.

IT's the tool they are giving players at stemming the Griefer, Cindy.

I just think there's better ways to go about things than giving players this kind of abiltiy and that I think it's flawed and will cause hard feelings among some in the Second Life community.

Personally, I won't bad anyone form my land because of verification, but I can see where it would be used by SIM/Club owners who have had their 50 ban spots maxed by Griefer Tom and his 10 alts, Harry and his 10, etc., etc.

There has to be better ways and Lindens aren't looking well I don't think.


*hugs*
Sav

Actually, it is a very useful tool for griefer policing as well. When you ban an account, you also ban the use of the same payment information for future accounts. Works better at preventing repeated griefer accounts than any hardware hash, which is very easily foiled.

Thank you. 1 was driving me batty.

Huh?

If I ban someone from my land, I'm only banning that avatar, not their personal account info or alts. I don't have access to that information at all, nor do I think I should have it. If LL has it, that's plenty for me -- they can do the griefer policing for all I care, but they're not using the verification field. They're using the hash entry on their login database which is much more useful.


Ok, so you're struggling to grasp the concept. Maybe I wasn't clear.

* Unverified status simply means that LL has not had any financial information submitted to them to verify that person's identity. It means that account is completely anonymous. MANY, if not most, free (unverified) accounts are completely legitimate users who just want to see what SL is about and are not griefers. I haven't seen anyone argue with that, on either side of the issue.

* Because of their anonymous (unverified) status, adult content providers have no assurance that they're not dealing with a minor. In most lawsuits, you'll find that someone who exercised due diligence in preventing unauthorized access to materials will not be held responsible by a court of law. IF it ever comes to that, it's important that SL residents who provide adult content have a means of excluding those who have chosen complete anonymity. Even if it weren't a matter of possible legal action, most Adult Content providers I know have a conscience and want to be able to live with themselves.

* Griefers can come in any size, age, or form. The correlation to account verification is a loose one, really (I noted in another post that of the 6 accounts I banned last night from our club, 4 had born-on dates prior to Dec. 05). To assist themselves in making sure that nobody, not even the anonymous accounts, can escape bans by creating infinite alts, LL is collecting computer IDs when you log into SL.

There. Still confused, now?

As you stated I have not seen anyone argue all unverified accounts are griefers and agree a majority are well meaning players wanting to experience SL for the purpose it was made.



This statement is moot. the Terms of Service when signing up for the adult grid require you to legally and truthfully agree you are 18 years or older. This is able to legally be upheld in court if it should come to such actions. Your use the words "Adult content providers" and "conscience" in the same Sentence is another matter that is off topic of this post and won't address it here.



The fact is the matter is griefing nas skyrocketed since the free unverified accounts became available. Someone intent on griefing will knowingly prepare to grief. Will sign up unverified, free accounts (lots of them - whats to stop them?) to be used in such activity and use such accounts to perform the acts of griefing.

Though it is true that Linden Lab will be collecting system info to help prevent repeated griefers from returning, they also have instituted the Unvarified/Verified menthod as a tool in which players can ban such people who are just in SL for the fun of griefing. There is no other purpose for you to know if someone is verified or not other than to tell you that the person unverified may be operating on a throw away account, but it's up to YOU to determine.



Well, are you?


*huggles*
Sav

Maybe, and maybe not. Read between the lines -- we are the content providers in SL, not the Lindens. Who do you think will be the target of a lawsuit?


Ok, then I will -- are you implying that adult content providers don't have a conscience? Get your asbestos moral crusader helmet on, because you're going to need it.


The advantage of the free accounts until today's patch was that they were anonymous, eg untraceable. That is no longer the case, not because of the verification field but because the Lindens have done something else -- that is, record the unique ID of your computer. This is what I mean by 'separate issues'.


You just got done agreeing with me that most of the free accounts weren't griefers, but now you're arguing against yourself? I don't want to ban anonymous accounts from adult content because they might be griefers -- I want to ban them because there's a risk they're underage.


I think I've been pretty clear here -- at least to those with decent comprehension.

Cindy give it up.

I'll leave it as we just agree to disagree on some things.

I don't want to get you flaming and i"m not going to split hairs. you ruined the thread with nonsense enough.


as to:



I'm still laughing.. a predicable response. The way you took that was in keeping wiht the attitude you've taken this whole post.

*shrugs*

I'm done with this post. Sorry to disapoint you with no continuing the fun.

[edit: you came into this post telling me I don't know what I'm talking about and you still hold that view so fine with me. be as you like]

I ruined the thread? It wasn't worth much to begin with, to be honest.


Edit: Savonah, re-reading your original post I think you made a valiant effort but I still think you confused the "V" flag with anti-griefing tools. They're related, but they are not the same solution to the same problem.

I never suggested you should. I'm not talking about YOU banning people from your land, I am talking about Linden Lab banning people's accounts tied to the same payment information, in perpetuity, for reported abuse.

They will be using the verification field for banning people, to be sure. The problem is that it will be circumvented MUCH more easily than having to cough up yet another set of payment details. Further, with payment details, they can more easily refer the more serious offenses to the authorities, because they know a LOT more about the person in RL than with any hardware hash (where they know NOTHING).



Please, lay off the ad hominem; it does nothing to advance your point. Thanks!



Correct, that point was never in contention.



Very true, though I am not a lawyer, I would hope that would be the case.



This is where we have contention. I maintain that requiring payment verification is a far superior deterrent to griefing and a more effective method of eliminating problem users from the game than a hardware hash. Griefers operate at their peak from a position of anonymity. Requiring payment verification eliminates the vast majority of anonymity from the equation, especially if Linden Lab is diligent about banning griefers and notifying payment account holders with letters (for those who use someone else's card info to cover their griefing).

You're right in that it doesn't matter how old the account is. There were griefers even before they implemented unverified accounts; I'm well aware of that. The difference is, now, they can get banned by LL OR landowners, and be back on a fresh alt in minutes to pick up where they left off with little more than a bump in the carpet. Yes, even with the hardware hash instituted. Before, they would get banned by LL, and they had to cough up another set of payment details, as the ones that were used for the now banned account are blocked from being used for any new accounts in perpetuity.

The really nice thing is that, as someone who is hell-bent on griefing having to provide more and more details about themselves as they continue to misbehave, they are becoming less and less anonymous. It then becomes academic for LL to take legal action against said person to permanently put an end to their shenanigans.



No, I never was confused about the subject or your take on it. Try reading what I said and responding to it and we will get somewhere.