Question: is libel & defamation abuse?

Hi, Apologies for the length of the post but I have had a bad day and need to get something off my chest.

Something that only really occured to me today that I find kind of confusing. What does one do if someone makes libelous or defamatory statements about you in the forums? I'm trying to differentiate here between simple angry name calling and serious defamatory statements of a false nature.

I mean doesn't it seem odd that something that is 100% illegal in RL, something that could be stopped in a heartbeat by a court order, is seemingly unstoppable on the virtual forum?

I mean lets face it, most of us have made intemperate remarks, there is something about the anonymity of the forums that practically encourages it. If someone gets mad at you and calls you a bad name in the fourms or in game ( you do it to someone else), then it's a "personal attack" and can be reported etc. The person can be sanctioned or banned within the game as a result. However, despite the vehemence of some of these attacks, in the end they are really just name calling and probably best responded to with a "game-level" punishment. There is a lot of anger, a lot of "fireworks," but no one is really being hurt are they?

If on the other hand, in the course of a discussion about factual matters someone consistently defames you, exaggerates facts or lies about you - says that you are, hmmm.. let's say a thief, a liar, incompetent in the performance of your job or are knowingly and purposefully engaged in illegal activity (and you are not), isn't this a different thing altogether?

These are serious charges. Charges that in RL, might get you thrown in jail (at least in my country.) If this person was making the exact same statements in RL about my RL business there would be no question that I could get a court order or injunction for them to cease and decist immediately. Serious economic harm can result form these kind of remarks. One's reputation can be easily destroyed by one vidictive and loud person.

If on top of this you are engaged in a legal matter with this person where you don't even really have the luxury of replying to these false claims, doesn't it seem odd that they should be allowed to go on and on, spewing all these hatefull lies and remarks about you and yet have it not even be a reportable offense in terms of forum behaviour?

Again in RL, this exact situation is considered to be a very "black and white" affair. If you are engaged in a legal dispute with someone, and then subsequently go to the newspapers or stand on your soapbox and make all kinds of accusatory defamatory remarks that directly relate to the matter you are in court over you would be dragged of your soap box by the local police (at least where I live). If you did not stop making these remarks you would be arrested. If any newspaper or electronic forum was foolish enough to print your rants, they too would be criminally liable. Maybe the law is different in the US?

On the forums however, it seems like there is nothing one can do. It seems LL considers calling someone an "asshole" to be a ban-able offense and the post will be deleted forthwith, but a person can go on and on like this over a period of years stating their "opinion" (libelous though it may be) that various people are theives, traitors, liars etc. and that is fine and dandy?

Seemingly the only way to stop such a person is to "out" ones RL identity and take them to a RL court about it, but is this really realistic? I don't think so. Think of the expense and the trouble you would have to go to over each incident and then they will likely just do it again and again. And what if you don't even live in the same country?

Shouldnt' there be some kind of forum or "game-level" level punishment for this sort of behaviour? Some way of stopping such abuse? Is there no way to stop others from making pubic accusations about you that are unproven and viciously repeated over and over again? The way it is right now, one can't even AR someone for this action as it isn't considered a "personal attack." By couching these defamatory statements in the guise of a "debate" and engaging the other party in a false discussion, the statements are passed off as mere opinion and pretended to be factually based. So you could AR it as an "attack" but she can always get out of it that way, even though in a legal sense, it's actually far worse. Seems like according to LL, the legal ramifications are just "up to you" to worry about.

I must say its interesting to find oneself in the situation of being virtually assasinated (character-wise) in a public forum owned by Linden Labs and not even being able to even AR the abuser! And what if it's not just you, but many people that this person has done similar damage to over and over again?

For years.

Shouldn't it be that something this wrong and this illegal in RL, should at least warrant a slap on the wrist in the forums? Isn't it really to all of our advantages to stop people like this from endlessly propagating their paranoid attacks on the rest of us?

I would really like to hear Linden Labs policy on what measures they could or should use to deal with the type of person that continually does this sort of thing. I think this person should be banned from the forums permanently, but then I have a bias I suppose.

There is actually a precedent. There is one person I have known who continually made these kind of attacks over a long period of time. The funny thing is that person, as bad as they were, apologized all the time as well. That person would admit they were wrong from time to time and the statements they made might have been annoying and bothersome they were not really legally actionable. What's really funny though is this first person was in fact banned for life from the SL forums.

The harshest punishment that has ever been handed down for an avatar in Second Life!

Yet their transgressions were not illegal and the number of people they actually hurt with their remarks was tiny in comparison.

The person who has been ruining my life lately (and possibly my business), has sometimes dropped hints that they "know someone" or are perhaps even related to someone in Linden Labs. Is this why they never seem to get sanctioned for what is arguably the most horrible hate-filled performance in all of the forums? This may be just rumor of course, or even bravado on their part, but the question remains even so. Why ban the first person for life, but not the other?

Tonight, as I write this, I think this is the first time in my life that I wish I was an American citizen and living in San Francisco, simply because if I was, I could hire a lawyer, and have her walk up to Philip Linden and slap a cease and desist order on his desk in regards the posts of this person as well as a request to find out the true identity of this evil sprite that vexes me so, and why in the world she gets away with what she does.

I can't do it. I guess if she goes much further I will simply have to leave the game or come back as someone else, but sooner or later someone is going to drop a big fat lawsuit on someone's desk at LL over this insanely loose canon IMO.

It's pretty obvious to me who you are talking about. Although I have stayed out of it, I have read the threads. Seeing you post this just put the capper on my decision to never go to N'burg. I've never been there, but, I certainly won't be going now. *sighs, shakes head and adds N'burg to the short list of places to NOT go*

Omg Did You Hear The Grid Is Down? I Had Friends In There, I Hope They're Ok!

Do Sims Feel Pain?

As for Libel, slander, and defamation based on a forum post. . .can we all move past the concept that people will take such a thing to court? Even if it got to a court, it would be laughed out.

One thing to consider is that proving libel, slander or defamation of character has many different rules, given the governing body. The rules in the UK, of which I am a citizen, make is much easier to prove libel or slander than in the US (of which I am also a citizen). In the US, the burden is on the plaintiff to prove that the defendant KNOWINGLY lied; for example, I could say, write or type "Bub Linden is a wanker!", and it would be up to the plaintiff to prove that I knowingly had proof, before making the statements, that Bub Linden was NOT a wanker for a judgement to be issued.

In the UK, the burden of proof isn't nearly as high (I won't claim to know the specifics). This is why the recurring statement "I'll sue you... in Europe!" is often attributed to Scientologists. The burden of proof for libel or slander in European countries is much lower than in the U.S.

I've followed the N'burg threads with an occasional cursory glance here and there, as I've always found the people involved intriguing. I wish I had a dollar for every sentence I started which says, "I'm not a lawyer, but...". I'm not a lawyer, but... international law may cause some of this gray area.

Regards,

-Flip

I'm not a lawyer, but ...

A lawyer in the appropriate specialty would probably laugh at this thread.

To add to what Flip said - libel is a civil offense, meaning you need to prove damages to have a case. If some crackpot says something and it's obvious that it's meant in good humor, or they have no credibility, then there's no case.

That being said, there's easier cases of abuse in SL:

1. If it involves anything from RL or a private conversation, it falls under the "disclosure" rules of SL and is reportable as abuse.

2. If it uses vulgarity or patently offensive material to describe a person in SL, regardless of slander or not, it is reportable as abuse.

3. If you have asked someone to stop talking to you or friends, and they persist, it could be considered harassment.

That was kinda my point though.

This person is somehow allowed to say all this stuff and get completely away with it. If there is no way to effectively stop them in RL terms, there should IMO be some kind of "SL Penalty" (like banning or at least an AR).

For those that have put it in terms of "it's just a game" or words to that effect, I would point out that I have a real (but very small) business in this game that is mysteriously now in the tank. (gee I wonder why ) In the end, hopefully people will see what I am really like and everything will work out. *crosses fingers*

But imagine these same kind of charges are being made about someone who actually makes a big income in the game like Aimee or someone of that level. They would be losing real significant money. It just doesn't make sense to me that someone can get away with this kind of character assassination, "scot free" when simply calling someone an "asshole" sometimes merits a three day suspension from the forums.

For those that said this would be laughed out of court or that I am wrong about the severity of it, or whether it constitutes libel, look it up. I am not wrong.

The RL equivalent is two parties engaged in a civil law suit, as if one party was say, suing a company. If the party doing the suing, then went to the local newspaper (or electronic equivalent), and said these kinds of things about their opponent, talking about the relevant facts of the case etc., the company can get a court order to stop them and to suppress the publication of the defamation. If the party persisted they would be thrown in jail. This is just a fact.

Linden labs has a real, solid legal liability here staring them in the face. If not in this particular case then certainly in the near future.

More and more SL is about real money and real companies. Even though we are pseudonymous identities, they are legal representatives of real people. Libelous remarks against these entities are the same as any other.

Linden Labs has a real responsibility here to keep this kind of thing from happening, just like any other media publication or electronic information service. If they knowingly allow someone to constantly make statements against other individuals like this, that end up being proven to cause financial or any other kind of damages, LL would be financially liable for letting the defamation go on.

Especially if people had say .... been complaining about this person for years.

At the very least, such behaviour must be seen to be "wrong" and written into the forum guidelines.

I want the right to at least AR someone who is dragging my good name through the mud.
And if any of you were being attacked in the same way, I bet you would want to as well.

Dianne,

If you feel you have a case for libel, then file one with an attorney - you don't need LL to intervene to stop it. They are able to hide behind the ISP language of their TOS. Just be forewarned that it is extremely difficult to prevail in a libel case. Someone simply stating their opinion that you are an asshole, for example, is not defamation of character or libel. It is freedom of speech and expression - it is their opinion. Saying that you, for example, stole a texture or are not the original author of something may potentially be libel, but it is not the slam dunk you might think it. A big component of libel is you must prove that there has been actual damage done as a result. The burden of proof in libel cases is enormous.

Believe me, I understand what you are going through probably more than just about anyone here. The level of rhetoric, drama, and flat out direct attacking of people with false statements is getting out of control across blogs, web sites, forums, and in world. However, it is a tough road to go down to stop, but if you feel it is worth it to protect your name and reputation, then it is your only viable option. Linden Lab will not intervene on your behalf, they barely enforce their own TOS or even seem to understand it. Good luck in your efforts.

I suspect you might find a number a violations of the forum guidelines, community standards, or terms of service in the the posts you object to.

For example, if someone says in the forum that someone else is a real world criminal, and the someone else has not stated in their inworld real life information section that they are a real world criminal, that violates the disclosure section of the community standards.

The proper procedure to take if one feels their DMCA rights have been violated is described at Linden Research DMCA policy . Posting in the forums about the matter is not listed, and thus such posting violates the forum guidelines statement to post in the appropriate places for the appropriate reasons.


If one does file abuse reports about statements made in the forums, it might help the abuse staff to make an appropriate decision about disciplinary action by providing links to and quotes from prior posts that have resulted in disciplinary action.

Also, one needn't feel limited to a narrow interpretation of the rules in filing an abuse report. Robin Linden made this statement: "We do try to do what seems right and best, and not to hide behind policies or rules." Thus a persuasively written abuse report based on facts and principals of right and wrong might produce the result you seek regardless of whether you can specify particular violations of the SL governing document's rules.

"Non illigitamus carborundum"

Suck it up and stop engaging her in debate and/or conversation. I operate under the assumption that we are all here for enjoyment of some sort. Quit wasting time on that which you don't enjoy.

And anyone who gives a damn will likely consider the source.

If Richard Simmons were to make disparaging statements about me on worldwide television, no one whose opinion of me I care about would be adversely affected. Looked at from the other side, if some doofus were to say something false about me that would change your opinion of me, your opinion would cease to matter to me.

I'm talking in circumlocutions, but I don't think you need fret about the posts in question. I'm sure it stings a little as no one likes to be slandered, but ultimately you have the power as to how deeply you let it affect you. My recommendation: ignore it.

Commentary:

Well, you'd think so, wouldn't you.

coco

is libel & defamation abuse?

The chances of finding qualified, valid legal advice in a forum is almost nil. Check with an attorney in your area. Consultations are usually free of charge, and well worth the time.

Also in most places in US you cannot collect money for damages unless you can prove the other person's actions cost you money.

You have a better case if you have "clean hands".

Seems you're just doing here, exactly what the one in question NEEDS.... namely, GIVING MORE ATTENTION. Without it, trolls simply fade back into the woodwork. Ignore it, and let it go back to it's self imposed exile.

It is *reportable*.

It could be considered a form of "harassment" as they are trying to devalue your enjoyment of Second Life if it is a targetted series of attack at you. If it's just incoherent comments made during an argument, then eh, it's just an argument, walk away, if they continue to push what they say in the argument, it goes back to harassment, you left the argument, they're harassing you about it.

Admit to only the bad things with blanket statements to that effect and become a fully fledged heel. Babyfaces are so passe.