Meeting Log from 11-10-04 - Pertaining to RL and SL Politics Mix

Sorry for the delay in getting this up. The flu hitting me was not something I forsaw. Bleh!

The log below is complete except that I took out the hellos and goodbyes. I also took out the parts where sweet Urusula was helping a newbie who wandered in. Thank you again for doing that Urusula!

I did leave reactions to comments in, even if they were a simple "lol" because, well, otherwise the conversation would just look weird. Also, the "You" speaking in this log is me, Pendari.

So on to the log:

You: ok.. I was not sure how many would show up for tonight's meeting.. I know it is short notice but it is greatly appretiated those that could make it!
You: I thought the best way to handle the meeting... if there are no objections.. is roundtable style discussion.. but since we are such a small group.. would anyone be opposed to each person having roughly 5 mins to give a short opinon on what they feel
You: about this main issue at hand before the discussion begins?
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes.
You: the main issue being how to handle RL politics within the Neualtenburg city and projekt
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes.
You: Ok.. then.. lets start with each person giving their opinion on the issue before the discussion begins.. who would like to go first? =)
You: I'll roughly keep track of the time =)
You: don't everyone step up at once.. I can only do so much
You: *wink*
Billy Grace: lol
BladeDancer Pendragon: CAn you give an example of the issues you are expecting to need discussing?
Ulrika Zugzwang: I can start.
You: how to handle RL politics within the Neualtenburg city and projekt is the main issue
Chandra Page: Well, the biggie seems to be bringing RL politics into Neualtenburg.
You: go ahead Ulrika =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes. The short of it is we had an "antiwar antibush" rally in the city yesterday.
BladeDancer Pendragon: Sounds good to me !!!
You: lol
Ulrika Zugzwang: The concern is that since it was set up by Kendra and myself that it
Ulrika Zugzwang: reflects on the whole group.
Ulrika Zugzwang: It implies that they share the same view.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Talen thought that it diluted the goal of SL politics by contaminating it with RL politics.
Ulrika Zugzwang: I feel that I'd like to make this a politics-safe zone.
Ulrika Zugzwang: I'd like to have rallys, protests, and moderated discussions about RL and SL politics.
BladeDancer Pendragon: You mean like a real free speech zone ??
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes.
Ulrika Zugzwang: However, I am willing to restrict to an area or disallow project leads in participating to prevent a conflict of interest.
BladeDancer Pendragon: We are not located in the old East Germany are we ?
Ulrika Zugzwang: Ha ha.
You: lol
Ulrika Zugzwang: Nope.
Ulrika Zugzwang: That's all I have to say.
BladeDancer Pendragon: So no problem as I see it?
You: well.. we are doing opinions first.. then discussion Blade =)
Kathy Yamamoto: May I ask a question or the party in general?
Ulrika Zugzwang: (Sorry. It's random. Just go with it.)
Ulrika Zugzwang: Sure!
You: I have no objection to questions of a current speaker =)
Kathy Yamamoto: Well, I guess I'm askng the Moderator
Ulrika Zugzwang: *snif*
You: so Sure!
You: *winks at Ulrika*
Ulrika Zugzwang: Is there a question?
Ulrika Zugzwang:
Ulrika Zugzwang: crow
You: go ahead with your question Kathy =)
You: you amazing one handed typer you!
Kathy Yamamoto: Well, I guess I have read most of the postings, and I am well aware of the opinion that it was "wrong" to have a political event (RL), but I would like someone durinfg the evening to tell me what the "danger" is in mixing RL politics with this society.
You: that will hopefully be explained in the opinion section Kathy
Kathy Yamamoto: I really haven't heard that yet,
You: then we can discuss the opinions presented =)
Kathy Yamamoto: Oh. Sorry
Ulrika Zugzwang: OK. Who's next. I'm done.
You: no need to be sorry.. I'm just trying to give some semblance of organization to this meeting =)
BladeDancer Pendragon: lol
Kendra Bancroft: and doing a great job, Pendari
You: thank you =)
You: Ok.. I will go next if no one else wishes to before me?
Urusula Zapata: go ahead
You: Ok.. personally.. I was raised by anarchists.. my mother still is.. as a child and teenager I was constantly at protests and rallies.. I formed youth groups based on political opinions.. I even once hosted a cable show for teens to express their opinions
You: on current political issues.. I am *no* stranger to the need to rally and protest or to the depth that people feel their political beliefs
You: about 6 years ago I finally found peace with my own beliefs and stopped "fighting".. and then years later here comes SL
You: and a project one day comes in that wants to experiment with politics.. and I thought here was a great chance to try and really change things for the future of the world.. as I belive that one day this Second Life will be almost unrecognizable from the
You: first
You: so I jumped at the chance to participate in the project..
You: I did not however want to be involved with RL political issues beyond the fact that it would influence how others brought their ideas to the group
You: the one thing I think is main confusing comes from the website of the project itself
You: The part that states "in Second Life" being the main part
You: I am speaking about and the "IN" in that sentence being the most critical. To many, that line will mean exactly what it states. That this exploration is about things "IN" second life. Even further, some will take that to mean ONLY IN second life.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Tee hee.
You: So honestly.. I do believe many joined thinking that the ONLY politics discussed would be SL politics.. if that is not the case.. that is fine.. I just feel it should be made known..
Kendra Bancroft: May I?
You: and yes.. a part of me does feel that there is a conflict of interest between the two.. but I can save that for discussion =)
You: sorry.. I ran over.. I am finished =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: No problem!
You: Kendra.. you may have the floor for you opinion if you like =)
You: yes!
Kendra Bancroft: me like
You: lol
Kendra Bancroft:
Kendra Bancroft: While I agree that we are setting up a Government here in neualtenburg which is seperate and distinct from any RL Government.....
Kendra Bancroft: I believe that like any foreign nation, the actions of other nations can have influence on us as surely as any state in or out of SL
Kendra Bancroft: I don't, personally, draw a distinction between RL and SL as much as I draw a distinction between Neualtenburg and any other Government
Kendra Bancroft: If we are to have truly free speech in neualtenburg than I need to be able to address problems I have with other nations
Kendra Bancroft: "Inworld" or "outworld"
Kendra Bancroft: I propose that neualtenburg be ostensibly all free speech --but save a few City owned areas where perhaps one must watch what one says --The cathedral for example
Kendra Bancroft: That's my piece
Kendra Bancroft: Thankyou all for listening
You: thank you Kendra =)
You: ok.. another to the floor for their opinion..
Ulrika Zugzwang: I'll speak for Talen if you'd like: "Everyone give Ulrika $100!"
You: lol
Ulrika Zugzwang: What? That's what he said.
Billy Grace: lol
You: hahaha
Kendra Bancroft: and kedndra twuce that I believe he mentioned
Ulrika Zugzwang: Who's next?
You: Kathy has the floor =)
Kathy Yamamoto: Most have read my postings. My primary point here is this: Ia am part of this because I want to see a constitutional government suceed in a virtual world.
Kathy Yamamoto: I am willing to entertain MANY permutations in how that society and constitution are formed. I wouldn't even mind restrictions on where "RL" rallies or events could be held. O restrictions on the use of the city name.
Kathy Yamamoto: BUT, I will not be able to handle a constitution or law that puts prior restraint on what I am allowed to say - anywhere.
Kathy Yamamoto: I would prefer that all residents understand that this experiment is not meant to resolve real world issues. And that RL speech is tolerated, but not part of the experiment.
Kathy Yamamoto: A situation where there are "social" pressures, instead of legal ones that help us tolerate some freedom of speech we might not appreciate otherwise.
Kathy Yamamoto: Thanks.
You: well stated.. thank you Kathy =)
You: alright.. we have a few others here.. who will go next with their opinion?
Chandra Page: May I?
You: Chandra has the floor =)
Chandra Page: First of all, I believe that unrestrained free speech, at least within the guidelines imposed by the SL TOS, is a *requirement* for building a functioning democratic society.
Chandra Page: It completely falls apart if we prevent people from having a say, regardless of what side of the political fence - RL or SL - people are on.
Chandra Page: That said, though, I do think that care needs to be taken to not make protests or events held by individuals or groups within Neualtenburg appear to be officially sanctioned by Neualtenburg.
Chandra Page: That seemed to be the crux of the complaints I read on the forums.
Billy Grace: nods
Chandra Page: I don't have a problem with RL political rallies and such being held in the city, but I do think we need some firm guidelines on how it will be done.
Chandra Page: Among those guidelines needs to be clear labeling that such an event is the responsibility of the party holding it, not of Neualtenburg as a whole.
Chandra Page: That's my piece. Floor's back to Pendari.
You: thank you Chandra =)
You: Urusula, Fef and Blade are our last members .. which of you wishes to chime in next? and Billy I am not opposed to saying something if he wishes to if no one else objects.. not sure what happened to Lecktor
Urusula Zapata: Chandra said what I would say
You: lol
You: noted =)
Chandra Page: I'm just wordy that way.
Chandra Page grins.
You: Blade, Fef?
Ulrika Zugzwang: He can say whatever he wants when he pays up that $100! (Is that still funny?)
BladeDancer Pendragon: say now if I may.
You: lol Ulrika
Billy Grace: i would be happy to attempt to add some insight if there are no objections
You: yes please go ahead Blade =)
BladeDancer Pendragon: Thanks
Kendra Bancroft: I have none
BladeDancer Pendragon: I view SL as a real extension of my rl life.
BladeDancer Pendragon: And as such I like to have real discussions about real issues.
BladeDancer Pendragon: I have no problem with not associating anything said or done with the NeuAlt name but i sure don't want ppl to hesitate to discuss and argue about rl world issues.
BladeDancer Pendragon: I happen to be pretty liberal and I am also a retired military officer so I personally get quite a kick out of challenging ppls ideas about the status quo.
BladeDancer Pendragon: SL is a great place to do that because we have a lot of intellifgent well educated ppl here.
BladeDancer Pendragon: Anyway it's fun
BladeDancer Pendragon: Thats all
You: hehe.. thank you Blade =)
You: Faf.. did you have an opinion to give?
Ulrika Zugzwang: He also made the whole church!
Faf Farber: well...
You: ooh.. beautiful work! =)
You: Faf has the floor =)
Faf Farber: I just want to say that I am used to live as a free citizen with rights to express my opinion if I have something to say
Faf Farber: that is is RL and I want to do so in SL too
Faf Farber: I havent read the forums lately so I dont know what the issue is...
Faf Farber: but I feel happy to belong to this group! That is all I want to say for now
You: thank you Faf =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes. We had an antiwar and anti-Bush protest.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Some people didn't like it.
Faf Farber: oh ok
Faf Farber: I want to add
You: if there are no objections.. Billy .. who is very interested in the group wanted to say his opinion as well
Ulrika Zugzwang: Go on Faf.
Faf Farber: we should allow people to express opinions like that, of course we should!
You: sorry Faf .. continue =)
Faf Farber: haha that is all: freedom of speech is very important
You: =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: Faf kann Deutsch sprechen.
Faf Farber: thank you
Faf Farber: ja ein bisschen
You: alright.. on to Billy then.. after billy.. the floor will be open to discussion of what to clarify within the group with regards to this issue =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: Vielen Dank, Faf!
Billy Grace: please speek up if you have an objection. I am a guest and will have no hard feelings if you do.
Billy Grace: ok... guess im ok then..
You: yes.. go ahead Billy =)
Billy Grace: well.. it may surprise my liberal counterparts but i am all for free speech including rallys debates and everything else...
Billy Grace: but that said you have to walk a thin line here...
Billy Grace: this in going to be a new government... one for this city and if accepted, who knows...
Billy Grace: so... you must keep RL politics out of SL politics...
Billy Grace: now of course there will be RL issues that will need to be decided...
Billy Grace: and that is ok...
Billy Grace: but if RL politics is mixed into your political system then you really have n0ot created anything new here...
Billy Grace: any individual should be able to say anything they want in a free society and that shouldnt change here...
Billy Grace: with the exception of personal attacks and being too vulgar...
Billy Grace: nothing wrong with a good political debate on the street as long as it stays in the street...
Billy Grace: bring it into the senate... RL political debate that is... and you are playing with fire...
Billy Grace: what you dont want to do is to make this look like it is just all about RL adjendas...
Kendra Bancroft: I'd like to respond to that if I might?
Billy Grace: but about SL agendas... and SL pronblems... resolving them in your own governmental system...
Billy Grace: so... sorry i am going long...
You: let us hold comments till discussion.. if we can.. then the floor will be open to all
Billy Grace: but i think that you need to attempt to keep the senate free as much as possible from things like we hate this guy... or love that guy
Kendra Bancroft: If Ulrika had animated this pipe like she promised I'd be able to keep my mouth shit
Ulrika Zugzwang: I hate people that say that!
Ulrika Zugzwang: lol
Kendra Bancroft: shut
Billy Grace: anyway... i tend to be long winded and left some out but that is basically it... ty for the floor
You: lol
Ulrika Zugzwang: oops.
You: thank you Billy =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: I think that was great Billy!
Billy Grace: ty
You: alright.. the floor is now open for free discussion
Billy Grace: oh... 1 more thing... sorry
You: =)
You: eek!
You: lol
Kendra Bancroft: go ahead, Columbo
You: hahaha
Billy Grace: no political event should ever be sanctioned by tis city unless it is free of RL politics
Billy Grace: thats it... sorry
You: thank you for your input Billy =)
Kendra Bancroft: may I?
You: ok.. now the floor is open =)

Kendra Bancroft: On Billys last point I disagree strongly ...BUT
Kendra Bancroft: on the whole he raises valid points
Kendra Bancroft: I don't pretend to speak for Ulrika on this --but my wanting to have an anti war anti Bush rally was not an attempt to make the city about RL politics
Kendra Bancroft: rather I saw it as a foreign Government protesting the actions of what I deem an aggressive affront to the World community
Kendra Bancroft: the decision needs to be made as to whether we are part of the whole world --or simply the SL world
You: in my personal opinion.. it was the quote from the website .. and then the sudden event... that really caused a second glance by most....
Kendra Bancroft: Cyberia exists in the whole world to me
BladeDancer Pendragon: We are real humans who are a part of the real world, we just interact in SL !
Chandra Page: I like the idea of an SL goverment having official positions on RL political matters.
You: I honestly belive many joined thinking they could be involved in a political process about a world they cared about (SL) without the issues they deal with in RL politics
Chandra Page: The problem, though, is that the Neualtenburg government isn't fully formed yet.
You: very true Chandra
Kathy Yamamoto: I have to say I agree with Billy on the points he made. I have no problem with the city only sanctioning SL political events.
Chandra Page: We don't have a consititution in place, so there's no official method for *creating* such a government opinion yet.
Billy Grace: if i may... this government should have governing the people here in SL as its primary purrpose... it will get very massy and sticky if you want to have RL political debate as in I hate Bush in the senate... you run the risk of alienating people with...
You: I personally am not opposed to RL political events being held in the city.. I just do not want them to be the focus.. and I want there to be some disclaimer that states when RL political, etc events happen here.. it is on a personal level outside the
You: group
Kathy Yamamoto: But I feel the city shouldn't restrict speech on the street corners.
Chandra Page: I think much of the consternation of those who objected to the event wasn't so much the content of the event itself, as much as the fact that, as citizens of this forming nation, they weren't part of the process to decide about it.
Billy Grace: opposing views and they will not be a part of making something really cool here
Kathy Yamamoto: I cant see having RL discussions in the Senate. Or the city making a pronouncement on RL politics.
Kendra Bancroft: Let us imagine the possibilty (distinctly possible) that the current UD administration places unfair sanctions and censorship on internet based communication --do we not protest?
You: my true thought is that we will eventually be wrapped up in so much of the issues in SL that we will not have to focus so much on the RL issues
Kendra Bancroft: US admin that is
Kathy Yamamoto: Pendari, then it would be SL politics.
Chandra Page: And I have to agree with Billy that RL politics really ought to stay out of the actual governance of the city, unless the duly elected governing body of the city agrees upon such an opinion.
You: I think any RL event that would directly effect us.. YES.. we have every right to rally for whatever side best suits our needs Kendra
You: that however falls within the joining of the two worlds directly
Kendra Bancroft: does War not effect us?
You: everything that happens in RL affects us indirectly
Chandra Page: And personally, though I would be first in line for such a protest against curbing any kind of Internet freedoms, I'd rather make my stand in RL first, where I can make a bigger difference.
You: and you all must forgive my spelling.. I know it is horrid
Kendra Bancroft: that's my point
You: yes Kendra.. but to succeed.. a project needs focus
Chandra Page: SL simply isn't big enough yet for it to be an efficient medium for getting the word out on a political issue.
You: saying we do this that and the other.. but this is allowed when wanted is one thing
Kendra Bancroft: I don't believe we can have a truly free society if protest must be sanctioned by the City
You: to say we do it all just gets so broad that we lose focus
Ulrika Zugzwang: I got a boat load of focus.
Ulrika Zugzwang: What I need is some help.
Ulrika Zugzwang: lol
Lydia Livingston: No, the tub is still sitting in the middle of the bedroom lol Dinner was very good, I had tempura shrimp, yum
Chandra Page: Protest need not be sanctioned by the city; we're attempting to form an area where peoplel are free to express ideas and opinions, right?
You: hehe.. yes Ulrika, I'm sure that would help =)
Chandra Page: I don't see that putting the official seal on those ideas and opinions makes them any more or less valid.
Chandra Page shrugs.
Kendra Bancroft: Town Square is historically used just for that purpose
Billy Grace: p and will need to be addressed but there are distinctly RL issues like do we like or hate Bush etc... that need to stay on the street.
Kathy Yamamoto: Kendra, I agree that war - and other things - affect us here. But it is ineffective to deal with it in the city senate. On the other hand, I propse that speech OUTSIDE the halls of government not be restricted.
Chandra Page: Exactly. I don't have a problem with the town square being used for that purpose at all.
BladeDancer Pendragon: Sounds good to me !!!
Billy Grace: whoops... RL issues need to be addressed...
Chandra Page: I just don't think that the Neualtenburg government should be in the business of siding with the people *in* the town square on issues.
Kendra Bancroft: who said RL shouyld be part of the government?
You: I am fine with RL political events being held here.. I just honestly feel that it needs to be clear that when the RL events take place.. that the views are not always the viewpoint of all members..and the focus of the group remain SL based
Kendra Bancroft: I'm saying the Government has no right to restrict my speech
Kathy Yamamoto: Kendra, it turns out that was a worry for some folks, I guess.
You: I re-read the guidelines today.. and it does clearly state that the future government of the group will be SL focused only
Chandra Page: Yes, I think the disclaimer Pendari mentions is important.
Kendra Bancroft: The Government yes
Kendra Bancroft: The people?
Kendra Bancroft: No
Twiztid Hoodoo: hi everyone
Billy Grace: hey twiz
Chandra Page: Hello, Twiztid.
You: welcome Twiztid
Ulrika Zugzwang: Well it doesn't matter what the guide says. We can change it right now.
Urusula Zapata: Exactly Chandra
Ulrika Zugzwang: I'm flexible.
You: yes.. the wording is more an issue than anything right now.. it really comes down to what people join the group thinking
Twiztid Hoodoo: thanks for the ratings how is everyone?
You: and we have a group of people that joined honestly thinking the group was JUST about SL issues
Chandra Page: We're basically just suffering the growing pains *any* brand new government goes through during formation.
Ulrika Zugzwang: (Good Twiztid)
You: while some may be fine with either or and the other.. some are *very* adament about a distinction
Twiztid Hoodoo: we talkin political stuff?
Kendra Bancroft: The problem I see is that there are people who view SL as a game --and RL activities as what is termed as OOG
Kendra Bancroft: Out of game
Chandra Page: Until we have an actual, codified constitution, agreed upon by a majority, we'll have these kinds of issues come up.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes. This is an anti-Bush rally and _everyone_ here doesnt' like him.
Ulrika Zugzwang: lol
Kendra Bancroft: I don't view SL as a game
Ulrika Zugzwang: Just kidding!
Billy Grace: NOT! lol
Twiztid Hoodoo: and you where for john kerry?
Chandra Page: Don't mind Ulrika, Twiztid. She's full of crap from time to time.
Chandra Page grins.
Kendra Bancroft: It's the beer
You: well.. I can say for me Kendra.. that I very much do not view SL as a game. I have been in online games for years trying to find something like SL.. and I do not feel this is "just a game".. even though I have to defend myself to RL friends and such
Faf Farber: who is Bush?
You: screw them.. I know better =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: Bush is the president of the U.S. right now. He was just reelected.
Faf Farber: thank you Ulrika
Faf Farber: haha
Chandra Page: It's certainly a step above "just a game", which is why were even having this discussion in the first place.
Twiztid Hoodoo: i can tthink of one true good thing that john kerry has ever done
Twiztid Hoodoo: cant*
Kendra Bancroft: So why should a neualtenburg Government limit the speech of it's citizens?
You: I am a huge believer in the fact that SL is among the online environments that will set standards for future ones.. and I think governments in worlds such as are will eventually play a part in the RL world as well
Billy Grace: it shouldnt unless its vulgar or a personal attack
Kendra Bancroft: I could agree to the Government declaring itself Neutral like Switzerland
Chandra Page: I don't think anyone is proposing that the Neualtenburg government *should* limit its citzens' speech.
Faf Farber: Kendra it should not
Kendra Bancroft: but even in Switzerland they have free speech
You: so no.. I cannot say totally dismiss the real world... my only fear is that if we focus too much on what is already there, we will never find what could be
Faf Farber: even in Sweden we have free speech
Chandra Page: The government should encourage free speech. The government *itself* must make it clear, though, that events like rallies and protests are not necessarily the work of the government.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Oh! I didn't know you were from Sweden!
Ulrika Zugzwang: I thought you were in Germany.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Oops.
Kendra Bancroft: Nobody is saying or has said they wish neualtenburg to focus on RL issues
Ulrika Zugzwang: lol
Kathy Yamamoto: I think some people HAVE suggested that speech be limited in the city. But I like what I just heard. The City must be only about SL> However the citizens should be free to be whatever they like.
Faf Farber: ok no I am swedish, in Sweden
You: I truely belive that most that are upset right now could be happy if there were some way to say that RL events are an "extracuricular thing" rather than the norm in the city
Kendra Bancroft: I could agree to that, kathy
Billy Grace: hopefully this will be mostly abour SL with a little RL stuff in the streets... if it stays like that then you have a much better chance for success
Kendra Bancroft: I think that's all it's ever been, Billy
Chandra Page: Mostly, I'd like to see an environment in which people feel comfortable.
You: actually Kathy said that even better than I could =)
Kendra Bancroft: Frankly I viewed the rally the same as I viewed the Oktoberfest
Kendra Bancroft: An Event to be thrown by a private citizen
Kendra Bancroft: which brings me to a question
Billy Grace: i think that some are afraid that this will be nothing more than a political forum to sound off about your own agenda... you will have to fight against that perception and it will not be easy
You: I think in light of the RL tension, it became more a matter of tact Kendra
Kendra Bancroft: Must all events be approved by the City?
Kathy Yamamoto: how about a statment in the constitution that the City will restrict itself to SL matters only. And another atatement that the City will not restrict the speeech of it's citizens?
You: had the rally been held a year from now.. it probably would not have gotten the extra backlash that it did
Kendra Bancroft: I was going to have Martinsfest tomorrow --but I have canceled it
Kendra Bancroft: ]
Billy Grace: agreed Pen
You: Kathy.. I can agree to that!
Kathy Yamamoto: Are there comments on my proposal?
Ulrika Zugzwang: No restrictions!
You: awww.. Kendra.. I think you did that in your fury as well.. damn us humans getting pissed and doing silly stuff sometimes
Ulrika Zugzwang: I want free speech.
Billy Grace: sounds good to me
Ulrika Zugzwang: I play this game to crack political heads not to play sweet.
Faf Farber: No restrictions
Kathy Yamamoto: Urika, did you see my proposal?
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes.
Ulrika Zugzwang: I see it.
Urusula Zapata: Kathy, I agree to your proposal.
Ulrika Zugzwang: The goverment is SL only and the citizens are free to do what they want.
Kathy Yamamoto: Is it restrictive in some way?
Kendra Bancroft: I say no restrictionsd --but if the Constitution calls for Neualtenburg to be neutral ala Switzerland I have no objections
Billy Grace: vulgarity and personal attacks should be restricted in my opinion
Ulrika Zugzwang: Would this apply only to govt workers?
Kathy Yamamoto: Billy, this is a PG sim
Chandra Page: Well, technically, they already are restricted.
Billy Grace: you cant do that in the US
Kendra Bancroft: Out of neccisty , Billy --we're PG
Ulrika Zugzwang: It seems strange though. It's like saying a politician in Sweden isn't allowed to talk about U.S. politics.
Billy Grace: ok... thats good
Ulrika Zugzwang: That's crazy talkin'!
Kathy Yamamoto: Ulrika, it would apply only to official government deliberations and rulings.
You: yes.. so I cannot hold my naked dance around the bonfire events.. alas
Ulrika Zugzwang: So as a politician, my goverment could never censure the U.S. govt for it's actions?
Billy Grace: you are... as long as you are not doing it while fulfilling your government duty
Faf Farber: Pendari you are welcome to dance at m place
Ulrika Zugzwang: I'd have to pretend that the RL world does not exist?
Kathy Yamamoto: Well, Sweden certainly couldn't make laws about the US
Kendra Bancroft: never is a long time, Ulrika
Chandra Page: Even censure, though, must come with the full weight of a government, and its people, to back it up.
You: lol.. thanks Faf =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes!
Ulrika Zugzwang: Are we allowed as a community to censure RL govts?
Ulrika Zugzwang: It seems like we wouldn't be.
Kathy Yamamoto: Ulrika, that's a good point. But I would say it would be an arguable point that the US has an effect on Sweden in this world.....
Chandra Page: If a RL government official were to make a political statement about another nation, and the official's constituents disagreed, the official would not be re-elected.
You: I say that would be a great thing to discuss with the members Ulrika =)
Kendra Bancroft: I am personally loathe to impose restrictions
Kathy Yamamoto: Itf the US has an effect on Neualtenburg, I would expect it to become "SL matters".
You: this group is going to be dealing with a lot of discussions if you ask me.. and I'm all for it.. and love it! =)
You: yes Kathy!
You: I agree
Kathy Yamamoto: Do you see my point, Ulrika?
Kendra Bancroft: The US already does have an effect on us --that's my point

Chandra Page: I don't think we need to necessarily *restrict* the government from commenting on RL politics. But the city government should realize that it's generally in poor taste and likely to make some folks angry.
Billy Grace: any rule should have a reasonable exception... just not the norm
Kathy Yamamoto: Kendra, then that wouldbe a point to make to the senate president.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Hmm. I don't like the "poor taste" thing.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Speech is speech.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Politics is politics.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Math is math
Ulrika Zugzwang: Poor taste is relative.
Chandra Page: Maybe not poor taste, then. Bad word choice.
Kathy Yamamoto: I loved geometry but hated algebra
Kendra Bancroft: fuzzy math
Ulrika Zugzwang: Once we try to label what science is poor we're restricting speech.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Perhaps the real problem is that Kendra and I are currently very closely associated with the project and when we speak it seems like we're speaking for the whole group.
Kathy Yamamoto: Do you see my point about dealing with RL politics only when they have a demonstrable effect on our City?
Ulrika Zugzwang: Maybe it won't be a problem once we have many more people.
Kendra Bancroft: I think that's the problem yes
You: and I disagree Kendra.. but I'm not good with all the talk why.. I just say, as individual issues come up that we know DIRECTLY affect us .. US as in SL .. then yes, we should act on it
Chandra Page: I think the point I'm trying to make is that we don't need the constitution itself to restrict government officials from commenting on RL politics. Regular social and election pressure can take care of that just fine.
Kathy Yamamoto: And that that case needs to be made to the senate president (or whatever) before it becomes a topic for the denate?
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes Kathy. But I loooove politics and I want to roll around in them like a little piggy.
Ulrika Zugzwang: The whole point of this place is to make a political pig pen for me to roll around in.
Chandra Page laughs.
Kathy Yamamoto: Ulrika, I do too. But we need to feed the pigs before they make sufficient manure to roll around in
Ulrika Zugzwang: I was psyched when members of LLL showed up!
Ulrika Zugzwang: I wanted to see that every weekend.
BladeDancer Pendragon: Sorry got to go folks. Good discussion. See you all later
Ulrika Zugzwang: It was like a "Thinkers" meeting with teeth.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Bye BladeDancer.
You: take care Blade =)
You: *wave*
Ulrika Zugzwang: So, should we try to agree on something?
Billy Grace: lol
Ulrika Zugzwang: It is getting late for you East Coast folks.
You: I don't have to work tomorrow!! yay!! I'm on vacation!! =)
Urusula Zapata: I have to work tomorrow.
You: timing worked out great eh?
Ulrika Zugzwang: I have to work too.
You: lol
Kendra Bancroft: I do --but I'm an insomniac anyways
Kathy Yamamoto: I suspect that the senate president or rules will control speech to pertinant discussions anyway. I could stand to put an "understanding" into the constitution that the senate should focus.
Kendra Bancroft: TY faf
Ulrika Zugzwang: I could go for that.
Faf Farber: it is early morning 4 me
Ulrika Zugzwang: Wow! You are up late (or up early).
Chandra Page: Yes, not necessarily codified as law, but some of the text at the front of a law that describes its intent.
You: ok.. the main things I personally saw tonight was fear.. free speach.. and compromise
You: speech
You:
Kendra Bancroft: I could see that in a preamble --but not in the body as law
Chandra Page: Exactly. A preamble.
You: from both sides I mean
Ulrika Zugzwang: We should capture this in the forum. Do things like this go in the constitution? Or would there be another document somewhere?
You: I like that Chandra
Kathy Yamamoto: what I see is that the current leasers of this town, AND many of the people who will work on the constitution, are now aware of the issue at a level they weren't before.
Chandra Page: Something else I think we should take away from this. As much as I hate meetings, I think we need more regular contact among Neualtenburgers.
Kathy Yamamoto: true
Urusula Zapata: I agree
Chandra Page: Particularly if we're going to agree upon a constitution. We need a *lot* more discussion.
You: I'm copying all of tonights meeting into a notecard to distribute to members and post as a log.. I just won't be able to get it together till tomorrow =)
Kendra Bancroft: Nothing is stopping any Neualtenburger from calling a meeting
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes. Perhaps regular meetings would be a good thing.
You: the forums are lost on many
Kathy Yamamoto: I think we need to arrange a constitutional convention at some point
Ulrika Zugzwang: I'm very bad with meetings though.
You: we had a few here tonight that only knew because I directly IMed and sent a notecard
Chandra Page: Yes, largely because the forums are really a terrible place for real-time discussion.
Chandra Page grins.
You: it is the bane of so many groups
Ulrika Zugzwang: Someone aside from me who loves meetings should take care of that.
You: hehe..t rue chandra
Chandra Page: Yes, we definitely need a constitutional convention. Probably more than one.
You: I like meetings
Kathy Yamamoto: I imagine it may take a few.
You: I hope I wasn't too harsh as the moderator of this one
Chandra Page: And it needs to be well-advertised, with enough lead-time that every interested party can attend.
Urusula Zapata: You suck Pen!
Faf Farber: Pendari you were doing good
Urusula Zapata: LOL
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes. Although I'd prefer to articulate in the forums and then discuss in world. Typing is too slow to do the whole constitution in world.
You: thank you all for coming and letting me bring this together.. it renewed a lot of faith in the project for me =)
Billy Grace: you can put away your whip now Pen... hehe
Kathy Yamamoto: Perhaps a few Saturdays or Sundays.
You: lol Urusula
You: hahaha
Chandra Page: True, Ulrika. Anything lengthy needs to be on "paper", whether that's in the forums or a notecard here.
Ulrika Zugzwang: So what did we decide on?
Faf Farber: I think every group needs MEETINGs now and then
Ulrika Zugzwang: Can I hold my baby-killers meeting here tomorrow or what?
Billy Grace: lol
Kendra Bancroft: We decided that Kendra was right all along
Kathy Yamamoto: Ulrika, we haven't decided. We just communicated.
Chandra Page: Death to babies!
You: ok.. after tonight.. there are some that are going to want a straight answer on this issue though
Urusula Zapata: Ulrika, you have to define which baby killers
Ulrika Zugzwang: lol
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yeah.
Kathy Yamamoto: I do have a proposal on the table though
Ulrika Zugzwang: Let's settle this concretely.
You: It seems to me we have come to an agreement.. and that would be great to be able to state
Ulrika Zugzwang: I'd love to have the LLL over for another meeting.
Kathy Yamamoto: I'm planning some gatherings.
Billy Grace: maybe someone who is part of the group needs to make a motion, vote on it then post it... just a suggestion
Ulrika Zugzwang: Would Kathe for example be allowed to have some of those meetings here?
Kathy Yamamoto: Is this an appropriate place to act on my proposal?
You: that is my thought Billy
Billy Grace: :^D
You: yes Kathy.. it was stated that after the main issue.. other items were welcome to be presented =)
Kendra Bancroft: I'd like to know if I require permission to throw events
You: I would think not if the current motion is aye
Kathy Yamamoto: How about this, then. I will propose at the first Constitutional Convention that there be an understanding entered into the Preamble of the Constitution that the City Government is expected to restrict itself to SL matters in all official activities....
You: gadz that was vague.. hang on
You: lol
You: there ya go!
Kendra Bancroft: I won't sign that
Ulrika Zugzwang: Hrm. I don't like it.
Ulrika Zugzwang: It makes no sense.
Kathy Yamamoto: I will also propse that there be a provision that the Government will not endeavor to restrict public speech of the individual citizens.
Ulrika Zugzwang: There is no other govt on earth that has that.
Ulrika Zugzwang: None!
You: I like that Kathy..
Ulrika Zugzwang: Actually it does make sense, sorry.
You: Ulrika.. what government on earth are we trying to duplicate?
You: *wink*
Ulrika Zugzwang: I mean I don't know if I agree that that's the right thing to do.
Urusula Zapata: I like that too
Kathy Yamamoto: I wiil NOT vote for a constitution that doesn't carry the second provision
Kendra Bancroft: It makes sense --I just won't sign it
You: yes.. cannot have the first without the second though
Urusula Zapata: agreed
You: too much power to the government otherwise
Faf Farber: the second should come first
Ulrika Zugzwang: Here's a thought ...
Ulrika Zugzwang: let's put a ban on all Ulrika-radical meetings until the city is done.
You: lol
Ulrika Zugzwang: We create the constitution with _no_ limitiations.
Kathy Yamamoto: and the Preamble expectations will not restrict teh senate from ruling that a particular RL issue is NOT an SL issue if it wants to.
Urusula Zapata: lol
Ulrika Zugzwang: Citizens then vote to amend the constitution if it becomes a problem.
Billy Grace: How about that the government is offficially neutral regarding real world politics and will not take a stance on anything not directly pertaining to governing Neualtinburg? Just a suggestion
Kendra Bancroft: Can I throw festival events without City permission? Like the Oktoberfest?
Kathy Yamamoto: The senate has complete control over what it deems SL matters.
You: I like that Kathy.. but I think there needs to be something in there where overwhelming majority of group can disagree with that one rule.. I don't like democracy.. I just don't want to see the government having that much power to say NO to a RL event
Kathy Yamamoto: Kendra, if you want it to be a City event, you'll have to ask the City.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Oh yes.
Ulrika Zugzwang: So Oktoberfest would be official and we would ask.
Kathy Yamamoto: right now, that you and Ulrika
Ulrika Zugzwang: The rally would be private and we could just do it?
Chandra Page: Well, just from a practical standpoint of reserving space for events, even festivals really should have the agreement of the government. Our problem is that we just don't *have* that government yet.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Is that what you mean?
Kathy Yamamoto: Right
Ulrika Zugzwang: OK.
You: I think too we could state that a "pre-type" of events should be able to be held without necessary vote
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yeah.
Ulrika Zugzwang: How about a provisional govt?
You: if they fall out of line, it is something that could be dealt with after the fact maybe?
Kathy Yamamoto: Well, Id expect the first session of the senate to rule on a lisst of City Events.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Sure.
You: I just can't see *most* of the events being an issue and I don't want to restrict creative spontinaity
Ulrika Zugzwang: I haven't mentioned it but I have the ability to levy fines with the vendor.
Ulrika Zugzwang: lol
Ulrika Zugzwang: We could censure with fines is what I'm saying, as a method of law enforcement.
You: haha.. ok.. now just get the vendor to let me buy from it.. it just wants me to delete or return
Chandra Page: You need to open-source those as soon as possible, Ulrika.
Chandra Page grins.
Kathy Yamamoto: So far, in my proposed scenario, spontaneous events are fine. But they'd have to go to the senate to become OFFICIAL events.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Nooo. Closed source.
Kendra Bancroft: I can agree with that
Ulrika Zugzwang: OK.
Ulrika Zugzwang: That works.
Kathy Yamamoto: So, no Official Spontaneous events.
Ulrika Zugzwang: What do we do for now?
Kendra Bancroft: But we need to make a decision about Yuletide
Chandra Page: Yes, Kathy's proposal has merit. Works for me.
Urusula Zapata: Me too
You: If an event is almost identical to a past event.. or within an already pre-approved list.. I do not think it should have to be individually approved..
Ulrika Zugzwang: OK.
You: that list would be senate approved to begin with though.. yes?
Kathy Yamamoto: Well, if we have a provisional government, they should announce Yuletide.
Kathy Yamamoto: Pendari. Yep. First the senate, then official
You: oh yes!! I so want to see Yule in SL!! =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: Plus Kendra has all the cool ideas for parties. She should have free reign with all nonpolitical gatherings until there is a govt.
You: hehe
You: I can agree with that Ulrika.. until we are in place.. any non-political event is fine =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: So what about my baby-eaters rally tomorrow?
You: afterwards.. we go by a pre=approved list or else permission must be granted?
Ulrika Zugzwang: What should we do until we get a govt?
Chandra Page: Baby-eaters rally is fine, just disclaimer it as Unofficial.
Chandra Page winks.
Kendra Bancroft: Fine because I have alot of work to don the Marktplatz if it's to be ready for Xmas
Kathy Yamamoto: Well, hearing a consensus amoung all citizens gathered, lets make Yuletide an Official Event.
You: lol
You: I second that Kathy
Kathy Yamamoto: it's concensus. No second hehe
Chandra Page: Can I third it? Or is that against Robert's Rules of Order?
Urusula Zapata: I think running an idea in the group forums would be a start.
You: hahaha.. sorry
You: *blush*
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes but we should call it "Weihnachten".
You: yes.. I am fine with the Yultide event =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes! An event notice in the forums.
Ulrika Zugzwang: We'll do that.
Urusula Zapata: I'm fine with a Yultide event
You: ok.. I have a question.. we need a constitution in place fairly fast I think.. and what are we going to do about our government?
Kendra Bancroft: I'd like to, if I may , at least set myself up as provisional head of an Artist's Guild until if or when elections are held for such a position --it would help me immensely in planning events
Kathy Yamamoto: First official ruling was by consensus. That's good, right?
You: sort of.. which comes first, the chicken or the egg? hehe
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes. Let's do the provisional govt right now.
Chandra Page: And of course, we need the standard disclaimer that our Weinachten/Yule event is in no way affiliated with or sanctioned by any specific religious groups. Just to be perfectly paranoid about not offending people.
Chandra Page grins.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Kendra's in charge of all meetings and artisan-related thingys.
Urusula Zapata: LOL
You: I can agree to that Kendra =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: I'll handle all city planning issues and work on the constitution.
Kathy Yamamoto: We should set aside three day (with a week or so between) to meet and make a constitution.
Kendra Bancroft: Thankyou
Kendra Bancroft: I'd like to see pendari in charge of the Convention
Ulrika Zugzwang: OK Kathy.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Convention?
Kendra Bancroft: or at the least chairman
Kathy Yamamoto: Who is good at scheduling?
Ulrika Zugzwang: Meetings you mean?
You: makes sense Kathy.. and the holidays are coming fast.. so I'm sure we will all need to be a little flexible during this time =)
Kendra Bancroft: Constitutional Convention
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes. We need some sort of "boss lady" to schedule meetings.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Hmm.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Who couuld that be.
Ulrika Zugzwang: If someone would volunteer.
You: I'm decent with scheduling.. I just make everyone meet mine
Ulrika Zugzwang: Hmm.
You: *wink*
Ulrika Zugzwang: lol
You: lol
Kendra Bancroft: I'll be wayy to busy with festive artsy things
Ulrika Zugzwang: Yes. Kendra and I are busy as bees here.
Ulrika Zugzwang: Busy busy busy.
You: no.. seriously.. I can squeeze in even during the holidays =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: OK.
Kathy Yamamoto: I'd like to nominate Pendari for Secratary. We need someone to take the shouting and ranting and occasional small voices and write them into a constitution. Pendari has shown great talent there.
Kendra Bancroft: and it might be good for me and Ulrika to be dedicated more to infrastructure so as to allow the Government to grow amongst the others organically
You: does anyone here want to give a brief statement as to the decision that was approved tonight?
Kathy Yamamoto: I'd like consensus
Kathy Yamamoto: I have a proposal on the floor.
Kendra Bancroft: I vote aye
Urusula Zapata: I vote aye
You: aww.. I am glad to accept secretary at this time.. =) I'm taking all the notes anyway =)
Ulrika Zugzwang: I agree.

After this last section, I somehow lost the rest of the log (ie it didn't paste for some reason and I thought it did). However, the only thing that was discussed was that Kathy thought that I may not quite know what she meant by being the Secretary, and I ended up agreeing. So that was something we were going to talk about later.