The Function of the Guild System

Hello

This thread is about some thoughts that occured to me in my recent reading of the Neualtenburg Constitution and TOS. Please don't take any of my comments personally, I am talking hypothetically here and trying to get an idea of how everythign works since I find myself joined to this experiment, but like many folks, I just clicked "OK" on these agreements without actually reading them.

OK... *deep breath*

My question here is simply about why we have a Guild system and what the avowed purpose of it is.

From what I can gather it is a simulation of a Medieval Guild system and being as I also am an Elf Clan member, I can certainly get behind that kind of anachronism. It is fun to participate in Artist run groups in that way and I would like to join if only I could see how.

In Neualtenburg however, the Guild system also seems to have a political/gevernmental role by way of the so called "Artisanal Branch" of government. This is different and I have problems with it's function in that regard.

I would argue that using a Guild system in a virtual world is always and necessarily a simulation only. For instance, one cannot ever know about the RL talents or propensities of any individual. A brand new SL'er could be the greatest RL architect or artist on earth, or they could be a hopeless buisnessnman without a whit of talent.

I find the idea that as a new player I have to "prove" myself to some Guild Master or Journeyman to be a trifle insulting. this is really the same as a sort of "old boys" network is it not? Not democratic at all and not even very nice IMO.

Again, this would *not* the case, if the Guild system is viewed as a simulation or a "game" that I am playing on a volunteer basis as part of my SL experience. Then it becomes the same as any other SL Guild sytem. Once the Guild system is a part of the government though, and can pass judgement on what is or is not built, then this is patently unfair IMO.

(Note - A lot of this stuff is vaguely explained or not explained at all anywhere I could find, so someone please tell me how I am wrong here if I am. )

Am I even allowed to build things in Neualtenburg without joining a Guild?
If so then how is it that my choice of builds is "controlled" or vetted?
If the Guild is the way in which builds are controlled, then what if I never join?
If there is another seperate process for vetting builds, then why is there a Guild process at all?

What I am thinking is that if the purpose of the Guilds and the Artisanal Branch is to control what is built or not built in Neualtenburg, then it is an entirely unfair and non-democratic organisation. If on the other hand, its just an artist run support/suggestion group that one can join or not, then there is no problem.

Overall I think it would be far more effective and more in keeping with the principles of a Democratic state, to control what gets built and here through simple and clear policy, not through the Guild system. This policy would be:

1) clearly defined
2) posted somewhere
3) set, changed or amended only through the RA
(the only democraticly elected body in Neualtenburg.)

This would greatly increase the transparency of the system and make it clear to anyone even from the outside, what can, and cannot be built in Neualtenburg. Right now we are just a little village of geniuses that mostly get along, but these isues will continue to come up and we need to put a proper structure in place for the future.

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This is not true.

Here is but a sample of my oeuvre:

1. I built the city vendor.
   
2. I built several items with Kendra and placed them for sale in a vendor.
   
3. You can exactly see our sales and thus rank us.
   
4. I built the website.
   
5. I built seven fachwerks.
   
6. I laid out the city.
   
7. I made a map of the city.
   
8. Blah blah blah

You could make the same list about Kendra, Gwyn, Sudane, or Eugene. The point is that contributions are quite easy to judge in both quantity and quality.

It's not meant to be a democracy. It's a way of giving power to folks that have talent and are productive. You'd be amazed at the hideous buildings I've been given to put up in the city by past members (before our current phase). There are some people who are simultaneously cursed with a lack of talent and the inability to recognize that lack of talent.

By creating mentor-mentee relationships, the Guild naturally establishes a hierarchy with newcomers that simultaneously prevents ugly works from going up, while providing an opportunity to learn.

All content that is going up in the city must go through the Guild. If you wish to create a public structure you must work through an existing Master as an apprentice or be a Master. If it's for your own use, you're fine as long as it doesn't violate the covenant. If many folks are collaborating on community works at the request of the Guild (such as setting up for Oktoberfest), anyone can join in but the Guild has the final say on what stays or goes.

Exactly! The guild is not a democracy, it is an ergatocracy (rule by workers). Remember, democracy can be entirely unfair too if you're a minority -- just try getting married in the U.S. if you're a homosexual. An ergatocracy is just an alternative form of self organization that's more like a corporation than an elected representative body -- and that's OK.


As for documentation, I hereby nominate anyone who call for documentation to write that documentation. (That's you.)

~Ulrika~

Well I guess I was not too clear there. I meant previous to their arrival in SL.

I was really asking questions. I am not sure what I think about the function of the Guild system, and that was both the reason for and the title of my post. I really want to know, and I wanted to fuel discussion about it by talking about it from a new perspective.

This is really broad, but imagine a scenario like this:

Suppose Le Corbusier the world famous architect comes to Neualtenburg and wants to build a building. He finds he have to get the approval of "Nyarlothotep" the GuildMeister who in RL is a supermarket bag filler and lives in his mothers basement. Nyarlothotep doesn't like the build cause it has "not enough dragons," or isn't "bavarian enough" or whatever. So unaware that it is Le Corbusier the famous architect, we send him away discouraged. Perhaps he thinks what a lot of fools we are and goes to join some other group.

That is what I meant about not knowing the qualifications of the person you are dealing with and that the guild system is necessarily a simulation. The idea that new folks need "opportunities to learn" and need "mentoring" from the Meisters is questionable to me in that light. In RL the apprentice is actually a non-talented or at least non-experienced individual starting from square one, in SL this is not necessarily the case. We are a small group of genius artisans, not an actual RL population and some things just dont translate well into the vitual realm.

Another question I had is exactly *how* is it decided what is built or not built?

A negative scenario illustrating this:

What happens if the Artisanal Branch decides somethign like "no buildings over two stories" or any other similar decree, and the RA (for whatever reason), does not agree with it? Who is actaully in charge in that situation? I dont think it is spelled out in the constitution anywhere. Ultimately who would decide? The people as represented by their elected officials? or the unelected Artisanal Branch?

It just seems hazy to me. I am not necessarily arguing either side of it. I would just like it to be written down somewhere *what* the rules of building are, and *who* decides in the case of a conflict.

I think any new person coming to Neualtenburg would want to see these rules. If you are a builder and you are thinking of joining, the first thing you note is that builds are controlled. I would think it logical to want a clear, concise written policy on that. Pretty standard stuff.

I favour having things like this decided by policy as it is less open to the vagueries of personalities and interpretation. I also favour having the policy decided on democratically through the elected body of the RA. This is a standard (deomcratic) governmental approach.

Regardless of which approach is taken however, I would still say that a written guideline or policy is essential. My example of Le Corbusier above was intentionaly sillly and extreme, but it *could* happen that a great new person could be turned away, or "turned off" to be told that they must apprentice to people who perhaps they dont see as their "betters," and to follow rules that are not written down and may be arbitrarily applied. To the degree that build policy can be written down, I think it should be.


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Hmm, I hate to be pedantic, but "all content that is going up in the city must go through the Guild" is a fairly liberal interpretation of the Constitution, which certainly doesn't claim that. However, we must also take into account something which is "tradition" - so far, in the "inner city", there isn't any non-Guild-created content, and I expect that this "tradition" will not change.

Also, the RA comissions the Guild for the public works (the Guild, however, is free to outsource it to anyone, although this has rarely happened -- Kendra has a policy to offer the job to Guild members first and citizens next) because it doesn't make any sense to comission it to any other entity.

Similarly, in the past (Neualtenburg Phase I), all content for sale had to be offered through Guild-approved (and -developed) vendors, which were the "official Neualtenburg vendors". This meant that for all purposes it is ultimately the Guild that decides what content is put in the City and is responsible for managing all income resulting from official vendors (the only ones allowed).

Since we moved to our private sim, this restriction was lifted. People can develop their own content and offer it for sale. Firstly, this was allowed only on deeded land outside the city walls (the "valley". Lately, there has been some leeway in allowing non-Guild approved content to be sold inside the city walls as well.

Yes. That's correct. To clarify, I was specifically referring to large structures (although I can think of exceptions) and you're right that in the past it used be other content as well.

Now that I think about it, the should Guild be in charge of the covenants, city zoning, and large public works (if that's not already clear in the constitution). It was my original intention to keep the RA a guiding and legislative branch with the productivity and aesthetics being in the hands of those with the gift for content creation. If these items were in the hands of the Guild, then they should have the power to veto RA-directed modifications to the covenant or city zoning. Hmm.

The Guild-RA interface has always been a bit hazy. I think before we modify anything else in the constitution, it might be nice to help define boundaries between those two branches, especially in light of the changes in Phase II.

~Ulrika~

Actually, the covenants are clear that commercial activity can only occur inside the city walls, and that all land outside the walls is zoned residential only. Within the City walls, on private land, citizens can sell anything they want. The city's relationship to sales from private land within the walls has revolved around the issue of sales tax. Originally collected while Neualtenburg was in Anzere, it was decided temporarily to set the tax rate to zero because of the complexity involved in collecting it, and the minimal return for doing so.

Sudane

Well, I have my doubts - as always! - since I always saw the Guild as the "inspiring" creative power of the City, as well as the protector of the workers' rights. Having the finantial aspect under control, it would mean that the RA couldn't simply spend all the money without paying at least attention to what the Guild needs/wants.

The RA embodies all citizens - workers and non-workers alike. This is a fair balance. So, while the aesthetical aspect should definitely be overseen by those who have a better training in that area, the rest of the citizens surely should have the "right" to decide what looks best, in the interest of all the citizens and not just a few.

I think that this duality has been quite well implemented in the Constitution Neither body has "more rights" than the other in deciding what the City should look like. One simple example: all citizens thought we should have a "large event" before the Oktoberfest, and the suggestion to do it inside walls was proposed to the Guild. The Guild decided it was best to get one of the quarters subtly changed to better encompass this "large event" - and thus, Altenburg was (re)created. But still, quid custodiet ipsos custodes? To make sure that the Guild is actually building something that is the citizens' wishes, it's the RA's duty to control them; to make sure that the RA is not blindingly appointing wild things to be built, the Guild has a right to stop them before they go too far.

In my sense, both branches watch each other. The RA can withdraw finantial support to the Guild if it feels that the Guild is not working according to its wishes; contrarywise, the Guild can demand a worker stoppage and even appeal to the Scientific Council if the RA is overstepping the Guild in outsourcing public works to third parties. But perhaps all these "rules" could and should be clarified in upcoming RA meetings.

I cannot see such a clear separation of both branches' influence in the City layout. The best example is something like the Expo 2005 or the Oktoberfest. The RA wants it to expand tourism and needs the Guild to build it; but the Guild cannot be looking only towards an "aesthetical" concept of what it should look like and not worry about the details if the buildings do not fullfill their intended purpose. On the other hand, the Guild cannot be delegated the responsability of both building something and making it finantially profitable without having any support from the RA. So, each branch has to watch the other one.

Sorry -- you're 100% right!