Second Life Forums Archive - Average-size Avatar?

Rutherford Beresford

Registered User

Join date: 2 Sep 2007

Posts: 45

01-29-2009 08:17

I am trying to build a static pose to be used as the driving pose for a motorcyle. I'm running into a bit of a problem and could definitely use some advice.

In order for the pose to look good there are three points of contact, between the avatar and the bike, that should line up properly. Specifically, these points of contact are hands on the handle-bars, feet on the foot rests, and rear-end on the seat.

I'm finding, even in a very small group, that some avatars have long arms and short legs, or short arms and long arms, and range in height from ultra short to upwards of 9 feet tall. As you can imagine, trying to get the three points of contact to line up properly with these big differences in avatar size is difficult at best.

So, what's the best way to deal with this? Do I build a pose for the "average-sized" avatar and if I do this, what IS the average size in terms of body height, arm length and leg length? I've tried taking advantage of some of the cool new sitting adjustment utilities that you can include in products that you sell but, even then, if the feet are perfect, the arms don't reach, or vice versa.

I realize there will be no "perfect" answer but I'm okay with trying to find a happy medium as long as I'm equipped with a lil bit of knowledge as far as trying to figure out what that happy medium is. I hoping my fellow SL'ers can provide me with some of that knowledge.

Thank you and I look forward to your replies.

Rutherford Beresford

Carbon Philter

Registered User

Join date: 4 Apr 2008

Posts: 165

01-29-2009 08:52

Do you not go with Mr/Ms Average on the basis that individuals can do the edit thing and slide their position to best fit?
Can't be all things to all av's.

Ceera Murakami

Texture Artist / Builder

Join date: 9 Sep 2005

Posts: 7,750

01-29-2009 09:07

Wrote this info as part of a custom Orientation Island sim for a client:

From: someone

Avatars and objects in Second Life are larger than in real life, by default. There are two main reasons for this. The default visual perspective of the follow-camera is a couple meters behind and above the avatars's eyes, and this makes everything "look small" if it is scaled accurately. And the scripted command that is used by virtually every "Avatar Ruler" to report an avatar's height actually measures only to the height of their eyes. Add to this the fact that by adding prims and scripted attachments, some avatars may be as large as a full-grown dragon, and the end result is that most buildings, vehicles and furniture in Second Life are scaled at 1.25 to 1.5 times the "Realistic" size. Most people simply accept this, after a while, since trying to make an "accurately sized" avatar gives you a form that is too small for most of the world around you.

The height of an avatar is affected by several factors: The obvious factor is the Height slider, which does a proportional scaling of the whole avatar. But neck length, torso length, hip length and leg length also contribute to how tall or how short you actually are, as does the gender of your avatar, and any shoes or other attachments that you may be wearing that affect your height.

Here's the defaults and the height ranges that can be reached with just the appearance controls, as reported by an avatar ruler (so this is actually the avatar's eye height) :
======================
Default height for the "Male Outfit 3" avatar is 6'5" tall.
From that default, move the height slider to 100 and he is 6'11" tall
From that default, move the height slider to 0 and he is 5'2" tall

By streaching every body part that affects height to max values, he could be 7'4" tall
By compresing every body part that affects height to min values, he could be 4'1" tall
======================
Default height for the "Female Outfit 3" avatar is 5'7"" tall.
From that default, move the height slider to 100 and she is 6'5" tall
From that default, move the height slider to 0 and she is 4'9" tall

By streaching every body part that affects height to max values, she could be 7'0" tall
By compresing every body part that affects height to min values, she could be 3'9" tall
======================

Most people in SL tend to increase the slider settings to something above the "average" size. You might want to make three animations and vehicle sizes. One for "default" average size, one for about halfway to maxxed settings, and one for maxxed out. Maybe also one for kid-sized, if appropriate. I wouldn't try to accommodate "Tiny's" as a normal vehicle, as compensating for theri specialized A/O is a specialty task in itself.

_____________________

Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.

Lear Cale

wordy bugger

Join date: 22 Aug 2007

Posts: 3,569

01-29-2009 09:22

To complicate matters, there are two averages, due to sexual dimorphism (men tend to be bigger).

You have more to worry about than simply limb lenght, too. To get hand position correct, you often need different M and F anims just due to shoulder width, most men having sjuch wider shoulders than women.

Typical male in SL seems to be about 7', but the proportions vary considerably.

Height in women varies even more, and the proportions vary even more.

Unfortunately, there's just no way to get it "right". The best you can do is to offer a small set of anims to choose from, as well as a means of adjusting the sit position to best match their av and anim.

Rolig Loon

Not as dumb as I look

Join date: 22 Mar 2007

Posts: 2,482

01-29-2009 10:09

Thank you, Ceera. That's a lovely post, well worth saving. I'll add it to the collection we normally make available for newbies in our library resource center.

I find that very few people in SL appreciate how important it is to learn how to adjust objects to fit your personal shape. Prim clothing, for example, rarely fits perfectly. People vary in height, body mass, torso length, and the size and shape of arms, legs, feet, butt, and whatever. As a result, almost anything you buy or create has to be customized to fit your own body. (Sort of like real life...

) I have lost count of the number of women I have taught how to wear a skirt, how to adjust the hem or waistband, how to tilt the skirt to make it lie flat against the tummy for a flattering fit or to keep it from letting your butt show through......

Builders and designers can only do so much to anticipate the "average" avatar. It's a fact of life, however, that very few of us in SL or RL are actually average. At some point, it's important for individuals to learn how to make appropriate adjustments themselves.

Destiny Niles

Registered User

Join date: 23 Aug 2006

Posts: 949

01-29-2009 10:11

Can you make more than one pose and have the avatar select the one that fits. Ie. small, med, large?

Ceera Murakami

Texture Artist / Builder

Join date: 9 Sep 2005

Posts: 7,750

01-29-2009 10:24

Thank you, Rolig. You may want to pop over to the "RUCE 1" sim, and collect the rest of the notecards for the Orientation course that I built there for Rutgers University. Feel free to re-use any of those notecards to help Newbies, or to invite newbies to take that SL orientation course themselves. It's customized a bit for Rutgers University, as their Orientation Island sim, but it is open to the public.

Just put on the HUD that is dispensed at the sign by the landing point, and have fun going through the course.

_____________________

Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.

Lightwave Valkyrie

Registered User

Join date: 30 Jan 2004

Posts: 666

01-29-2009 12:23

you could also make your 3 points adjustable or two points like a real bike has adjustable handle bars, seat ect...

_____________________

L$ is the root of all evil
videos work! thanks SL

Lear Cale

wordy bugger

Join date: 22 Aug 2007

Posts: 3,569

01-29-2009 12:26

From: Lightwave Valkyrie

you could also make your 3 points adjustable or two points like a real bike has adjustable handle bars, seat ect...

Thinking outside the box!

If you put the sit target in the seat and set it so that a very thin av floats above it just a bit, then a fat av will, well, wrap around it a bit, but on average it should be fine. If you then make the seat adjustable up/down/forward/back, they can set that so their arms reach the handlebars. Then make the footpegs adjustable, up/down/forward/back.

OK, that's a lot of trouble. But it's doable.

For your first rev, I suggest you just try having two or 3 different poses for different sized avs. Folks in SL are somewhat used to their parts not quite landing where they're supposed to. I make sex poses; you should see some of the humorous results with unusual avatar sizes.

Average-size Avatar?
Rutherford Beresford Registered User Join date: 2 Sep 2007 Posts: 45	01-29-2009 08:17 I am trying to build a static pose to be used as the driving pose for a motorcyle. I'm running into a bit of a problem and could definitely use some advice. In order for the pose to look good there are three points of contact, between the avatar and the bike, that should line up properly. Specifically, these points of contact are hands on the handle-bars, feet on the foot rests, and rear-end on the seat. I'm finding, even in a very small group, that some avatars have long arms and short legs, or short arms and long arms, and range in height from ultra short to upwards of 9 feet tall. As you can imagine, trying to get the three points of contact to line up properly with these big differences in avatar size is difficult at best. So, what's the best way to deal with this? Do I build a pose for the "average-sized" avatar and if I do this, what IS the average size in terms of body height, arm length and leg length? I've tried taking advantage of some of the cool new sitting adjustment utilities that you can include in products that you sell but, even then, if the feet are perfect, the arms don't reach, or vice versa. I realize there will be no "perfect" answer but I'm okay with trying to find a happy medium as long as I'm equipped with a lil bit of knowledge as far as trying to figure out what that happy medium is. I hoping my fellow SL'ers can provide me with some of that knowledge. Thank you and I look forward to your replies. Rutherford Beresford
Carbon Philter Registered User Join date: 4 Apr 2008 Posts: 165	01-29-2009 08:52 Do you not go with Mr/Ms Average on the basis that individuals can do the edit thing and slide their position to best fit? Can't be all things to all av's.
Ceera Murakami Texture Artist / Builder Join date: 9 Sep 2005 Posts: 7,750	01-29-2009 09:07 Wrote this info as part of a custom Orientation Island sim for a client: From: someone Avatars and objects in Second Life are larger than in real life, by default. There are two main reasons for this. The default visual perspective of the follow-camera is a couple meters behind and above the avatars's eyes, and this makes everything "look small" if it is scaled accurately. And the scripted command that is used by virtually every "Avatar Ruler" to report an avatar's height actually measures only to the height of their eyes. Add to this the fact that by adding prims and scripted attachments, some avatars may be as large as a full-grown dragon, and the end result is that most buildings, vehicles and furniture in Second Life are scaled at 1.25 to 1.5 times the "Realistic" size. Most people simply accept this, after a while, since trying to make an "accurately sized" avatar gives you a form that is too small for most of the world around you. The height of an avatar is affected by several factors: The obvious factor is the Height slider, which does a proportional scaling of the whole avatar. But neck length, torso length, hip length and leg length also contribute to how tall or how short you actually are, as does the gender of your avatar, and any shoes or other attachments that you may be wearing that affect your height. Here's the defaults and the height ranges that can be reached with just the appearance controls, as reported by an avatar ruler (so this is actually the avatar's eye height) : ====================== Default height for the "Male Outfit 3" avatar is 6'5" tall. From that default, move the height slider to 100 and he is 6'11" tall From that default, move the height slider to 0 and he is 5'2" tall By streaching every body part that affects height to max values, he could be 7'4" tall By compresing every body part that affects height to min values, he could be 4'1" tall ====================== Default height for the "Female Outfit 3" avatar is 5'7"" tall. From that default, move the height slider to 100 and she is 6'5" tall From that default, move the height slider to 0 and she is 4'9" tall By streaching every body part that affects height to max values, she could be 7'0" tall By compresing every body part that affects height to min values, she could be 3'9" tall ====================== Most people in SL tend to increase the slider settings to something above the "average" size. You might want to make three animations and vehicle sizes. One for "default" average size, one for about halfway to maxxed settings, and one for maxxed out. Maybe also one for kid-sized, if appropriate. I wouldn't try to accommodate "Tiny's" as a normal vehicle, as compensating for theri specialized A/O is a specialty task in itself. _____________________ Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Lear Cale wordy bugger Join date: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 3,569	01-29-2009 09:22 To complicate matters, there are two averages, due to sexual dimorphism (men tend to be bigger). You have more to worry about than simply limb lenght, too. To get hand position correct, you often need different M and F anims just due to shoulder width, most men having sjuch wider shoulders than women. Typical male in SL seems to be about 7', but the proportions vary considerably. Height in women varies even more, and the proportions vary even more. Unfortunately, there's just no way to get it "right". The best you can do is to offer a small set of anims to choose from, as well as a means of adjusting the sit position to best match their av and anim.
Rolig Loon Not as dumb as I look Join date: 22 Mar 2007 Posts: 2,482	01-29-2009 10:09 Thank you, Ceera. That's a lovely post, well worth saving. I'll add it to the collection we normally make available for newbies in our library resource center. I find that very few people in SL appreciate how important it is to learn how to adjust objects to fit your personal shape. Prim clothing, for example, rarely fits perfectly. People vary in height, body mass, torso length, and the size and shape of arms, legs, feet, butt, and whatever. As a result, almost anything you buy or create has to be customized to fit your own body. (Sort of like real life... ) I have lost count of the number of women I have taught how to wear a skirt, how to adjust the hem or waistband, how to tilt the skirt to make it lie flat against the tummy for a flattering fit or to keep it from letting your butt show through...... Builders and designers can only do so much to anticipate the "average" avatar. It's a fact of life, however, that very few of us in SL or RL are actually average. At some point, it's important for individuals to learn how to make appropriate adjustments themselves.
Destiny Niles Registered User Join date: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 949	01-29-2009 10:11 Can you make more than one pose and have the avatar select the one that fits. Ie. small, med, large?
Ceera Murakami Texture Artist / Builder Join date: 9 Sep 2005 Posts: 7,750	01-29-2009 10:24 Thank you, Rolig. You may want to pop over to the "RUCE 1" sim, and collect the rest of the notecards for the Orientation course that I built there for Rutgers University. Feel free to re-use any of those notecards to help Newbies, or to invite newbies to take that SL orientation course themselves. It's customized a bit for Rutgers University, as their Orientation Island sim, but it is open to the public. Just put on the HUD that is dispensed at the sign by the landing point, and have fun going through the course. _____________________ Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Lightwave Valkyrie Registered User Join date: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 666	01-29-2009 12:23 you could also make your 3 points adjustable or two points like a real bike has adjustable handle bars, seat ect... _____________________ L$ is the root of all evil videos work! thanks SL
Lear Cale wordy bugger Join date: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 3,569	01-29-2009 12:26 From: Lightwave Valkyrie you could also make your 3 points adjustable or two points like a real bike has adjustable handle bars, seat ect... Thinking outside the box! If you put the sit target in the seat and set it so that a very thin av floats above it just a bit, then a fat av will, well, wrap around it a bit, but on average it should be fine. If you then make the seat adjustable up/down/forward/back, they can set that so their arms reach the handlebars. Then make the footpegs adjustable, up/down/forward/back. OK, that's a lot of trouble. But it's doable. For your first rev, I suggest you just try having two or 3 different poses for different sized avs. Folks in SL are somewhat used to their parts not quite landing where they're supposed to. I make sex poses; you should see some of the humorous results with unusual avatar sizes.

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Average-size Avatar?