two questions in one

ok I wanted to comment on the age verification issue which leads to my first question how does one comment on that and other linden official releases I see lots of comments but no where could I find where to add a comment.

well sorry if this is the wrong spot but all the other places that seemed to be the right spot allowed no comment.
firstly this age verification thing is annoying it stops the freedom that is usual in sl and means providing infomation and going through a procededure that most won't want to bother with, so it will lose both sl and those making objects or running clubs of an adult nature business and customers, and is making many suffer for the sake of a few freaks.
there is also much confusion regarding what is adult content most bdsm equipment for a start can double as non sexual equipment for medievil role play? so will such things as cuff suspension hanging and torture other imprionment objects be defined as adult in nature? also will any clubs and private houses containing equipment of an adult nature be subject to these dracion messures.?

MORE IMPORTANTLY
this whole system seems to have been put into place over panic caused by some german documentary saying that child porn was on offer in sl and that some "people" were taking part in child sex roleplay.
Has it occured to anyone that has suggested that this age verification annoyance as a good idea that in fact age varification will do nothing to stop child porn since those dealing in child porn are adults, and also that those "people" (I would use other words for them but don't want to break any forum rules) who take part in child sex roleplay will not be stopped by this age varification system since they are also adults.
has it occured to anyone that the age varification will do nothing to stop any child porn and will just lose SL and certain stores and clubs business due to most not wanting to bother much less pay to go through such a service,? and that the best way to halt child sex role play is simply to take away the option that allows people to create child like avatars.
I have never really understood why this option even exists, most normal users find kid avis in places like clubs ect very annoying , and those supposedly role playing children are not role playing children very well if they are hanging out in clubs and engaging in sexual activity.

has it not occured to the powers that be here that a far simpler way to halt child sex activity or roleplay is to simply remove the child avi creating option and that age verication will do nothing to halt "people" selling child porn and only lose custom for SL and many SL in world products.
the simple solve is to remove the child avi creating option and set up a policing method to catch ban and inform the authorities of anyone selling or dealing in such material , SL World needs a police force anyway
Apologies in advance if this is the wrong section but its the closest I could find to a suitable place to have my say

What constitutes the creation of a child av?

Is it a certain height?
--Most women in SL are 7 foot tall monsters. The females I hang out with tend to be 5'2" to 5'8" in avatar-height...which sometimes gets them accused of being 'young' avatars because their height is ACCURATE for an adult!!!
--Role-playing sims often have alternate character options...like Dwarves for instance...short people. Hobbits? Do we want to prejudice against RL 'Little People'?
--Many "prim avatars" require an avatar shape to be tortured a certain way in order to fit the prim-body. Those who use 'tinies' or who walk around as animals would be affected.

Is it certain clothing?
--How would Linden Labs regulate clothing? Should it be illegal to wear a plaid skirt? A bow in one's hair? A t-shirt with Curious George on it?

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People don't seem to understand:

Adult activity requires age verification.
You must present ID when buying cigarettes, alcohol, and porn in RL.
Presenting ID when engaging in porn in SL seems reasonable.

Do I like it? No...Personally, I'm a rational anarchist...I'm against government and control in total. Do I understand it? Hell yes. People should stop bitching.

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LOL yes I know most avis are overly tall its mostly clothing that gives it away height does too since the Child Avis are extremly short short enough to suggest they have gone close to zero on lindens height meters other props and behavior usually give it a away to.
As for age verification maybe in most places offline but not online even most adult porn sites only require you agreeing that your over 18 and somtimes the use of a credit card since most nations only issue full credit cards to over eighteens.
Also Liden is saying they will not ask for age verification with credit cards because not everyone has them , but not everyone has driving liesences or passports either and in some countries not even birth certificates are that common, and once again its yet more invasion of privacy and freedom.
And what ages are they going to verify whose nations laws are they going to work under .

most annoying is the fact that these dracian measures have been brought in due to panic reaction over some German documentry that was claiming that child sex was being promoted due to sex between Adult and child AVIs the people controlling the avis were 27 and 42 and people are still talking about the age verification stopping child ponography and Pedo AVI sex ...it seems to escape everyone including Lindens that age verification will do nothing to stop child porn or simulated adult - child sex between avis because those interested in child sex and in promoting or viewing it are adult so would pass any adult verification checks.

And those commiting simualted adult - child sex will still do so even after the repressive feature of adult verification is introduced because they will pass that test and still be able to create chid avis .

so what makes the whole age verification thing even more annoying is it won't stop the thing that caused the whole panic in the first place.
It smacks of the same mentality that wants to ban GTA games and the like everytime there is a shooting incident panic measures that are introduced that don't even get close to the cause or the solution to the problem everyone is in such a panic about.

At most age verification will ruin the business and the freedom on SL and at most it will prevent the odd 16 and seventeen year old (who would actually be legally allowed to have sex in most Euro nations anyway) since true children (young teens and pre teens) are not interested is sex here or anywhere and those who want to view child porn promote it or simulate it on SL are not children but adults so will not be stopped by age verification.
So how is age verification a cure to anything or anything other but a pure inconvienece that prevents adult fun and business since it won't stop the things its meant to stop and there haven't been any cases of underaged persons let alone children having sex here only adults who promote it and simualte it and who will pass the stupid age verificcation thing.

SL is popular cuz its a grown world free of the irritation and inconviences of the offline world the more it introduces these type of repessive offline systems that worse still are totally ineffective when it comes to preventing the behavior that everyone is paniking over then SL will be very unpopular.

Its also amazing that SL would panic so much over an issue while missing the fact their beloved adult verification won't stop what they are so worried about and want to introduce a system that will at most prevent the odd 16 or 17 year old ( who are sexually legal in most of Europe) doing aminated sexual things while most sites offering Flesh and blood pornography require nothing more that the legal disclaimer of the person signing something agreeing that they are over 18.

and isn't it a parental responsibilty for parents to police their childs behavior rather than having all of us adult residents of SL inconvienced and our freedom restricted? specially since age verification will do noting to stop simulated child porn or the promotion of child sex since theose promoting that sickness would pass the age verification test so at best it will stop a few 16- 17 year old who pose as ADULTS and partake in simulated ADULT sex. which isn't what this whole panic is about.

the solve to stpping aminated/simulated child sex is obvious take awy the abilty to create child avis.

I was told that they have been looking better ways to verify age since last summer.

trimming this to keep it short and address a couple of points..

short body shapes don't just enable childlike avatars. all kinds of (human and non-human) avatars require a short body shape. Harry Linden himself would cease to exist if your proposal was implemented.no. Linden Lab is saying that credit cards aren't good enough because the cardholder isn't guaranteed to be over 18 years old. VISA make this point on their own website. Verification is also about liability for them, although how well protected they will be is open to debate.

from the more legible parts of your text, i detected some good points, but with regards to the main one (that child avatars should be banned), absolutely not.

Are you over 18 Joanna?

there aren't that many ways to prove it or that couldn't be gotten around also doesn't change the fact that all this panic isn't about actual children having sex but the promoting of and simulation of sex between Adult and child (avis)
Age verification won't do anything to halt that since those doing that are adults so will not be punished or restricted by age verification it seems a simple logic that has has escaped most people'
I would bet the incidents of REAL moniors let alone actual children coming on SL and taking part in "sexual" activity is almost zero.
Age verification is a panic reaction to something that age verification won't even have any effect on .

Got a reference to a Linden saying that it would prevent it?


LOL.. Don't you remember the whole teenage hormone thing?

Actualy little kids coming to have s(l)ex? I agree with the quote above. Minors in the 15+ range? I bet there's more than a few..

it was hell wasn't it? dominant sexual thoughts, unwanted "events" happening at the most inappropriate times; honestly, if SL had existed i'd have been logging in every night. of course, we only had Pacman and Ms Pacman back then. life is cruel. =D

And in between the disgusied persoanal attack I detected a good response.
why do we need child avis here especially since half of them are not even RPing playing a child but rather hanging out in night clubs and having sex.?
Maybe there should be a restricted area for them were sex actions and equipment can't be used.
As for your other question I am over 21 let alone 18 so legal in all countries and states.
Do I want to be forced to prove that and have our SL way of life changed just due to some panic measures introduced to prevent a situation that age verification won't stop anyway NO.
Also I don't want the inconvience and loss of business this measure presents to in world stores and the inconvience it will cause to buying products that might defined as adult in theme.

It would at least make sense though still be annoying if there were mass cases of children coming on here to have sex with adults or age verification on teen SL to prevent pedos going there to groom actual minors might makes some sense, but inducing age verification to deal with and prevent a problem that it won't even effect is just panic measures.

It seems somewhat protectionist and hypocritical of some to support age verification even though it won't do anything to stop simulated child sex while being against the deletion of the ability to make child like avis which is actually the cause of the problem and which the banning off is the simple and easy solve.

have references or examples of several members saying that age verification would be good because it would prevent child porn here check the comments.
And is the fact that Linden are introducing this measure just after the docu on german tv about child porn and child sex just coincidence then? all the years of not having it then its sudden introduction after that?

Hm well thats the odd thing most late teens are legally allowed to have sexual activity in most Euro nations from 14 uopwards in holland seems crazy to induce a law to prevent a few of them taking part in avi sex when they are legally entitled to have flesh and blood sex lol
Cases of actual children as in 16 or less must be virtually non existent as for actual children as in pre teens that must actually be non esistent .
Certainly haven't heard of any cases of it only the adult and child Avi sex as shown on German TV which was commited by persons that would pass the age verification thing .

I'm sorry. It wasn't a personal attack and I could've been more diplomatic. It's just that I've spoken with people who play child avatars in world, and your use of the word 'cuz' (amongst others) just reminded me of their roleplay and that made me wonder how far you'd extend this kind of elimination tactic. Patterns of speech, immature sounding voice (when it arrives), etc. Shouldn't we look out for those too? Hell, we might even catch some genuine under-18s while we're at it.
Maybe not the ones you meet, but it's a big world Joanna, and what you witness is hardly representative of the whole. In my limited experience talking with roleplaying child avatars (who are often accompanied by adult avatars roleplaying in a family situation), i've found them to be sweet, charming, excitable and fun. i've noticed one or two attention seeking and causing trouble at welcome areas after having a kid-shape dropped on them, but to be honest, they are far outnumbered by avatars of a more adult-size whose entire existence apparently depends on annoying people at welcome areas 24 hours a day.

Sorry again for that question. I didn't have to make a point that way. It was unfair.

Those ones are likely using the 7 foot tall Giant Adult looking avatars though

I agree wholeheartedly. A minor coming into SL is MOST likely to be the type using an exaggerated body shape. There's this whole obsession with being movie-star beautiful and adult...

OK I forgive:
As it goes I am more liberal on the child avi thing than many people are, I can see certain situations were it could be non sexual and even theaputic.

In many cases people may have had an unhappy childhood and so want to create a happy one here , or in reversal of that people may be unhappy now and childhood might have been a happy time for them, so they see being a kid here as a chance to relieve that childhood time.
Another harmless thing maybe were some want to live SL as truly a second life so therefore wnat to grow in SL from childhood to adult hood .

LOL my avi is quite short here because I have a height checker and made myself my offline height of 5 feet 8 ins but since most don't have that and lindens creation thing is not good at showing what height someone is then my avi seems small compared to most since most others here are like 7 feet tall but child avis go down to to near zero on lindens height creation meter so one can tell the difference between a "short " avi and a child one.

Cuz? lol well I am 24 so part of the "Buffy and the text and chat generation" cuz , coz, and other slang is often used in chat and text to save time .
I am a slow typer and often use it in chat "in SL world" just to cut down on the length of time it usu8ally takes me to type things, I would usually try and avoid it in a forum setting but chatting in SL world has made it a bit habit forming I think lol.

Though such slang is more common between older teens and early tweenties than young children.

still I can agree with your liberalism toward the child avi thing at least where no sexual activity is involved .
Just mainly saying that banning or restricting them would make more sense in preventing child or simulated child porn on SL than the annoying age verification thing would do

These threads are interesting in how they quickly turn into a debate on age play, rather than age verification.

I have been discussing on a couple of forums my belief that the age verification process is to enable gambling by companies to begin in SL.

However I am now beginning to wonder if it is actual part of LL's Corporate Responsibility and need to follow Know Your Customer (KYC) guidelines to reduce money laundering (1). These KYC guidelines must be followed in many countries world wide including the majority of EU countries, Australia and the USA.

With the transfer of $ to L$ and vice versa this must provide ample opportunity for fraud and money laundering. Therefore rather than "age verification" it is actually "person verification". I wonder if LL thought "age verification", in light of all the age play stories, would be more palatable to us.

1. http://www.cimaglobal.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-0AAAC544-CBD1B621/live/root.xsl/Insight05984_1014.htm

No I think its more likely a ill thought out panic measure induced by a fear of getting a bad rep .
the fear was induced by the now infamous german doc on adults role playing child sex (which is alos probably why age play so often gets discussed in these threads) and LL`s fear of a bad rep losing them the new big time companies signing up with SL .
Badly thought out in the fact that the measure of age verification will not stop child sex being role played and most of those big time comapanies are only interested in SL world due to its high population and mass publicity oppotunties.
When the restrictive laws kick in the population will decrease and so will the big time companies after a mass audience.
As will the trade for those companies dealing with SL specific adult goods so all those companies will also leave .

About the gambling thing don't the laws on that just as with sexual material vary greatly rom place to place.
if so will linden make their age verification very depending on the laws of where that person lives?

Don't forget about gambling, a hell of a lot of this has to do with gambling.

However the system that's coming would appear to be less secure than credit card verification, a complete mess with it being voluntary and full of question marks about what's happening with the data of customers.

Age play gets discussed because it is a flame topic. Once it is brought up the flood gates open and opinions start flying from two very opposing sides.

However with regards to it being a panic measure, just because you do not like, nor understand the strategic reasoning behind a decision that LL has made, it does not mean they have not fully thought out the pros and cons.

As I have said before the age/identity verification process has many more functions than trying to stop a minority activity that has now went well underground.

I continue to find no real evidence that the verification process is a “restrictive law”. Also the soft implementation, of the verification process, with its initially voluntary requirement, will ensure that the number of existing users, who you feel will leave because of it will do nothing of the sort. Such checks and balances, that age/identity verification provides, will actually make SL even more appealing to “big time companies”.

The gambling laws do vary from place to place hence the online gambling industries heavy investment into geolocation software that enables them to know which country you are gambling from and which applicable laws impact your account. I however cannot fully answer your question of how LL will implement their verification process and indeed I don’t think they have fully worked this one out for themselves yet.



I have no knowledge of how LL will implement the Age/identity verification process, but I would suspect that they will copy the existing model, of its existing use in online gambling situations, with it being implemented in tandem with credit card verification.