Let's Talk Zindra 2 - Changing Search

As you know, at the moment we're invisible to all 1.23 bods who either aren't verified or don't have adult preferences set and of course we're completely invisible to those on 1.22 and below.

There's no way that LL are ever going to revert the filter. That's just not part of their plan - no matter how much we wish it.

However. Ciaran came up with a great idea which is a way to give us visibility and allows users their predictable experience (well as much as anything does). All round it's a great solution to our visibility problem.

If you've been following some of the copybotter developers blogs you may know there's a defect in search where if you're in 1.23 and flip to god mode you have an adult search tickbox show up and can do adult content searches - even if you're not verified. The one thing you can't do is tp there unless you are verified - look but don't touch effectively.

If we can get LL to put this in search as a matter of course then we will have out visibility back - not fully but certainly it's a lot better than what we have now and going into the future.

What it will mean is everyone will see the adult checkbox - even the unverifieds. Anyone will be able to search but if they want to actually get there they need to either change their preferences or get verified.

The benefits are:

1. people who have previously been put off because of the pornography reputation can actually see what is behind the curtain. If someone told me all the adult stuff was porn I wouldn't be interested - we've all seen the terrible websites that are out there..

2. unverifieds will see the box and become aware there is adult content. Once they see what's available it may spur them to verify

3. those who are verified but don't realise they have to change their preferences will get the reminder if they search and try to tp.

4. It's in keeping with the predictable user experience as you have to tick the box and enter your naughty words of choice.

5. The code is already there so the work that needs to be done to implement this is negligible.

So, is it worthwhile having a concerted push to get blondin to at least talk to the powers that be about putting this in?

What are the downsides? If we can think of any arguments they might use against it and come up with ways to counter it the chances of implementation will be a lot greater.

Once you're payment info on file, or whatever criteria SL uses to determine you're "an adult", you should be able to visit any sim on the grid that hasn't banned you. There shouldn't be some added checkbox you have to go hunting for to allow access to those sims.

But in search, the adult, mature, and pg checkmarks are perfectly appropriate, as is leaving "adult" unchecked by default. That's how Google works. By default, "Moderate" safe search is active. That would be equivalent in SL of +PG +MATURE -ADULT. You wouldn't ship a browser with net-nanny installed *AND* active. Maybe for a service that welcommed children to use it, but SL doesn't do that.

I like the idea of letting unverified users do adult searches if they want, even if they can't "get there". But I also really dislike the hoops people have to go through to meet SL verification criteria (a paypal account on file is all you need)..

THEN you have to relog, then go into general preferences and hunt down a dropdown menu and change your "access level preference". I think that step is unnecessary, and should default to "all content I am allowed to access", and then people can go in and self-cencsor their experience by downgrading that setting to Mature or PG only.

nothing matters except the sl2009 viewer and they are not showing it yet. LL isn't doing anything in the existing viewer except security fixes (and mine that got piggybacked on because it only needed 4 digits changed in the parameters).

I think it's a very good idea.

Part of the problem, at the moment, is that search is blocked by where the store is located, with the result that, even if you're advertising something that can quite properly be advertised and sold from a shop on Mature land -- sex beds, for example -- the fact that you also advertise BDSM furniture means your shop has to be on Adult land. So someone looking for sex beds doesn't get to see the full range available unless they're verified. And, as you say, seeing what they're missing out on might encourage them to verify and come and take a look.

Something I don't quite understand, though. I'd thought -- and clearly I was mistaken in this -- that if you tried to use Adult terms in a listing or parcel description, the system wouldn't accept the unless the land was set to Adult. I'm wondering if it's possible to make it so that, if there are Adult terms anywhere in the listing, it only gets returned if you've set your search preferences to show Adult ads, no matter where the business is located. If that could be implemented, it would solve the problem of people running (or, at least, advertising) Adult businesses on Mature land.

Just do what the others do and put keywords like "bed, furniture, 7 seas" in the text and put all your naughty words in your landmark texture. Seems to work for them ok.

As I see it the main problem is with the filter. The naughty word list is too narrow to be effective and the filter is too badly designed to effectively use it. Not only is it easy to get around but it doesn't filter on the way out only on input terms.

As long as you had the naughty words in your search prior to the lockdown the ads stayed. LL did in theory stop renewals of all ads that did have any naughty words in them but I never checked to see if they did actually do that. I assume they didn't actually follow through because I'm sure I did a search on the website (which is supposedly pg) and words like BDSM came up in the results return. Which, when I think about it, is most likely because you can still put whatever you like in your parcel description and put it in search.

The filter alsol doesn't stop ads with other adult terms in them. Sex is a classic one here. Yes, there probably are a small number of ads for sexual healthish services but the other 9950ish that are advertised are for adult activities. I would have preferred to see a blanket ban on the word with LL agreeing exceptions than them asking for 10,000 ARs that they'll never look at, let alone action. But LL never take the easy road.

What will be interesting is this secret plan Blondin alluded to that would miraculously fix all this. I can't wait to see it, despite the fact that on past performance we'll probably be caught up in it as well lol

So basically you are saying that you want to be able to advertise adult content to everyone in SL, regardless of age verification or interest in viewing the material even though the whole point of the Zindra exercise was to get explicit sexual content out of the general search?

You do realize that the media has spent 6 years flogging the SL-as-pornsylvannia meme to death, right? There isn't anyone out there who doesn't know SL is bursting at the seams with adult content just like everyone knows the intertubes are bursting with adult content....but anybody who wants to find it doesn't have much trouble (just ask any parent.)

Even if you are puttering around on XStreet the button for Enable Mature Content is in red and hard to miss.

Always push the red button, even if it says don't.

As I understand it, the proposal would give us a state of affairs pretty much analogous to what we have on xStreet; that is, anyone would be able to see the adverts who chose to but would need to verify their account to buy the goods. What we have at the moment in-world is more equivalent to not being able to access Mature Content adverts on xStreet unless you'd already set up an account with them, with the added annoyance that, if you've only got one shop and it's on Adult land, no one can see any of your goods, whatever their nature, unless they've verified their accounts and chosen to see Adult content.

No the idea is to advertise adult content to those who search for adult content. On Xstreet, as you point out, all you need to do is click the enable mature content link, this is a similar proposal but those who choose not to click the adult content checkbox won't be seeing those adult adverts.

What was proposed in the OP included getting around people's desire not to see adult content in their results. Sounds to me like attempts at spamming and unwelcome soliciting are part of the mix.

You won't get Linden support for that.

No it's not that at all, not in any way shape or form, the aim is quite the opposite to how you're interpreted it.

perhaps you need to re-read the original post again if that's the impression you have. Although I may have made some assumptions of knowledge of what the search popup looks like that may not actually be as widespread as I assumed.

I don't understand what you mean by spamming and unwelcome soliciting in this context. Nor do I understand how you think this forces unwelcome ads on people when to access the content in search you would need to tick the adult search checkbox and then do the search. Therefore there's no compulsion on anyone's part. You still have the choice of what maturity level you wish to see, it's just extending it to the unverifieds. XStreet has a link in red letters telling people there is mature content available. Inworld (where we are all supposed to be over 18 to begin with) there's not even that.

and the benefit of getting unverifieds to either put payment information or age verify is no bad thing - no matter what the reason for verifying.

Of course I support this change. I just can't figure out how to express the need for it in a way that Blondin can understand, get behind, and champion to the decision chain that needs to approve it.

So far, we haven't even been all that successful at getting other forums posters to understand why it's necessary. : (

I can only think that by allowing everyone a glimpse of what is there it will:
a. make it easier to convince those not complying to comply
b. Spur unverifieds into verifying
c. may make us successful. Cyn was very specific in emphasising that by putting us all together we'd see a business benefit.


welcome to the reality I've been banging on about since almost the beginning. Everyone has been blaming the change on everyone but our fellow residents and LL is quite correct in saying that this was asked for by residents. It's certainly not the sole or major reason but there is a demand for a cleaned up grid out there.

There are a lot of people who are very anti adult content out there. They behave as if they want us gone and apparently it's black and white to them. They don't particularly care if we're put out of business or not nor are they really interested in what the results of the policy have been.

What they seem to be failing to understand is that this hasn't given them what they wanted - which is a cleaned up experience - all it's done is hide those who played by the rules laid down by LL. As I see it they're not interested in fairplay or anything else, they just want us gone.

In this case I think LL will be more receptive. They do have an interest in making the separation successful (tier for over 1000 sims depends on it at least) so it's just a matter of being able to find the right levers to jolt them into action.

we have had success on the email front and getting the ads cancelled for those who didn't move. So we have had some wins, even if they haven't been what you'd called fantastically effective.

The contents of the adult sim are not the only adult content. The results of searches also contain adult content, if not filtered. Parcel descriptions have pictures that can be naughty, and text that can be naughty.

Indeed so. And can, as I understand it, be accessed by anyone anyway, since a search for the names of Adult sims will return results anyway, either in-world with only PG checked or on the website.

I don't normally say much on the forums, and I certainly don't say much that is controversial, so I might be sorry for this post, but here goes nothing...

There's something that the folks in Zindra probably don't realize... what those non-prudes who are happily not in Zindra have perceived through this whole sordid mess. I never considered myself a person who wanted adult content gone, but I have to say that the entire process has been an interesting eye-opener.

First came the ill-conceived announcement that adult content would be shoved off to one corner of the grid and filtered from search. Personally, I liked the idea of filtered search (if I search for roses, I don't want to have to wade through half the search results being BDSM locations to find sculpty roses; it's inefficient). I liked the idea that I might be able to reliably buy a parcel of mainland without having a slave trader buy the parcel next door. But I thought that opening new non-adult areas would have been more logical. Obviously, that wasn't on the table.

Next came the protests. Not only on the blogs, but all over inworld. I saw more gratuitous nudity than I had seen in my previous two years in SL. Those of you who were sowing your wild oats while you still could by flaunting around the whole of the mainland nude, blaring about your adult content-ness, got hard to ignore. I personally feel that when I have an obligation to a group, I should not mute its members inworld, so I had to just put up with it. Your world, your sexuality, in my face gets pretty old after the umpteenth time.

Finally, the rules, as poorly devised as they may have been, came into effect. And you know what? When I search for "rose" now, I find pages upon pages of search results of either flowers or avatar names. Anyone who knows me knows that I don't defend LL, but my search results really are more "predictable" than they used to be. And as a bonus, I'm not seeing anywhere near the level of "acting out" and seeing as much public nudity in inappropriate places as I was before. The system obviously isn't perfect, since those of you who have followed the rules are seeing people ignoring them. But maybe it's the searches I'm doing (or not doing)... but I'm not running across the non-compliance you are complaining about.

All that was not to get you riled up. Rather, it's to share a perspective that to the average user like me that this process actually worked.... and I suspect that going to cause some serious inertia on the part of LL to making additional changes, even small ones like adding a check box in search.

I've been following this thread with interest, and I'm curious, Couldbe, could you clarify this:

Do you think they're more likely to comply if they think that the non-verifieds will see their content in search? Why would they be any more less likely to attempt to game the system if there was still a non-adult search to be gamed? I guess I'm dense, but I'm not getting it. And if I don't, the rest of us who live outside the Zindrasphere might not, either.

We're very well aware of the issues of search as it impacts all of us and I can't think of anyone who didn't support the cleaning up if it. Interestingly wasn't the adult content providers who were spamming it but just your average keyword gamer. In adult search there are only 83 classifieds with BDSM in them and around 101 places advertised. I can't tell you how many mature places ads still have the words in them as the filter won't let me search but I do see the naughty words pop up and the places themselves don't look that adult to me (BDSM hair anyone?? middle of page 1 mature hair search). (there's also 1217 places using sex as a keyword in adult and around 1100 classifieds yet a search on the sl website returns close to 10,000 hits and remember the website is pg)

This isn't about reverting search to what it was, although I don't know just how much it is really cleaned up. I see sex places using shoe and hair keywords and brothels still advertising in pg search. BDSM is still being used as a keyword (along with all the other naughty words on the list) in places because LL didn't want to tackle those and still the keyword gamers continue.

On our side of the fence the benefit has been the noise from the keyword gamers has been reduced. The general consensus appears to be that while traffic is down sales compared to footfall is up. That doesn't mean we're all suddenly rolling in it and I do think for a lot of people they're borderline. The rl economy isn't as buoyant as it was a couple of years ago, people can't afford to subsidise their businesses as they once did, so it is important we look at ways to get our customer base back.

The main problem here is that while some of us dutifully trotted over to Adult and did the right thing the majority hasn't. The policy clearly states if you're an adult business you should be over with us. Do a search on whore in pg search and see just how many escorts *aren't* following the policy or even a seach on sex. Sex clubs belong here too but despite the fact anyone with a customer base of any kind would have had to be deaf, blind and comatose not to have had an inkling of what's going on, they're still out on the rest of the grid and their profitability has increased I suspect thanks to the move to adult of their better class competitors

LL won't take action against these people. We've been banging on about it for months. Those who did follow LL policy are invisible to anyone on 1.22 or below or to anyone who hasn't verified yet those who flout the policy and continue to advertise in mature and pg (ffs sex workers in pg search!!) are effectively getting our business and this is condoned by LL's behaviour.

To me there are 3 points to the change.

1. It treats everyone as an adult. By allowing anyone to choose to search for adult content if they wish people are aware of the full range of second life activities. There's no hiding or treating us as second class citizens. As ll doesn't actually go out of its way to tell people that we're here but hidden, a lot of people don't know we exist and they think what they see in mature search is it. remember, mature search is seen by everyone on all viewers. Adult content is only for 1.23 and I suspect the takeup of 1.23 in either the official or snowglobe flavours is not as great as anyone would hope.

2. Those who are still advertising in mature may just be tempted to move if they think they'll still have visibility - nothing else has worked so far and LL apparently doesn't have the will to move against them. Grasping at straws? perhaps but since LL won't take action of any meaningful kind we've been reduced to little things that have small improvement.

3. on the back of 1 & 2, at least giving those of us who did comply a little more visibility is fair and consistent I think. In an ideal world anyone who sees a pg or mature ad with words that refer to adult activity should strike them off the list of places they'll ever visit - simply because these places are gaming the system and taking unfair advantage. I would also like to hope that people are complaining to LL (not ARs, just complaining) that LL have not done as they intended and have not cleaned up search. The reality is that people reward these places by patronising them, while we are hidden.

I don't think that asking to treat the SL community as adults (we are all over 18 supposedly) and to allow the community to become aware that there are legitimate adult content providers on the grid is too much to ask. At the moment all most people see are the chancers and the gamers because of our invisibility cloak.

This won't stop people gaming search with inappropriate keywords - that's a different matter all together. What it does do is make us visible via a checkbox on search for everyone running 1.23. Unverifieds can do a search and see what's there and hopefully verify to come over.

This is just asking for a bit of fair treatment on behalf of those who actually did do what LL asked and allows LL to demonstrate a respect for its user base by treating everyone as an adult who is responsible for the decisions they make on what they see.

in a nutshell, I think your issue is not with adult content but with the keyword spammers. They're two different issues that somehow have become confused.

and you think yours was a long post

Thanks for the response. I think there's some intertwining of keyword spamming and adult search issues. I generally found that lots of adult businesses often used non-adult words in their names and descriptions, and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. To trot the rose example back out again, I'm aware of the (now defunct, I think) Black Rose. There's nothing wrong with it as a business name. Or having products that appear in search with that word in their name, etc.

I certainly hear you about those who are following the rules to want the others to follow the rules as well, since it's impacting your bottom line. LL should enforce the policies it puts down. (Okay, I hear your laughter. I know, I know. They should do a lot of things.) I haven't really stumbled across the sex clubs that have refused to move from the mainland -- not living on the mainland any more probably has kept me from seeing it the way I did when I had a different one moving in next door every six weeks. If I see them, I'm more than happy to report them. You (the collective you, not you specifically) don't deserve to be at a competitive disadvantage because no one will enforce the rules.

It would be an interesting experiment to see if the folks who aren't abiding by the rules would shape up if they were given easier visibility. I wonder if there's a way to have a rational conversation with some of the businesses who have refused to move from their Mature locations and talk about why... and what would compel them to move. (Yes, I'm coming into this late and this has probably been discussed) Being armed with information like that, as opposed to "maybe if... then" might help lay out your case better to the powers that be.

However, I do stand by the inertia comment. LL has an incredible amount of inertia as a company, and it's hard to get them to do much of anything that isn't really, really compelling.

(I'll hush now. I don't post often because I rarely post with brevity when I do.)

It's about encouragement, I can't speak for Couldbe (she'd slap me for a start) but from my viewpoint, I always wanted the adult content policy to be about encouragement. I was never a fan of the forced migration for example.

Encouragement takes time but I do think people would be more likely to comply if non verifieds can see their wares in search, it may even encourage some non verifieds to go PIOF, at which stage they're closer to spending money on SL full stop, even if they decide they don't want to go the adult route.

There's also the angle of legitimacy, those who have gone adult have played by the rules but they can't advertise that fact to non verifieds because non verified can't see them, so non verifieds see those who are gaming the system and when and if they do decide to spend, they're more likely to go to those who are flouting the rules, because they're the ones they've already found. Those who don't comply have the reach advantage, it shouldn't be this way.

very true, to be honest though I'm coming to believe that it wasn't just the adult businesses that were the problem, a lot of it appears to be non adult businesses gaming. Simply because of the small number of adult ads now compared to the actual reduction of smutty words in search. That small number doesn't reflect the claims of unrestrained pornography on every ad and every plot that some were claiming. There are still some businesses trying to game search using adult concepts as their keywords (this is from page 1 of mature places search for sex and there are more)





As I understand it, one of the largest (usually in the top 6 in search) purveyors of sex items changed their rating to adult from mature (which is as it should be) and then flipped back a couple of days later. A lot of adult businesses have been reported as doing that once they see their numbers plummet after doing the right thing. Islands can do that. Those of us on zindra can't.

You may not be aware that we're also invisible if we sell non adult items i.e. we're forced into only selling adult goods and services. If I wanted to establish any of my old shops here on zindra (which is where all my land is now) that don't sell anything even remotely adult I can't advertise it in mature or pg search. If I had mature mainland I would have a choice of advertising in mature or pg. The system they've put in is so badly designed that all adult rated lands literally are a ghetto when it comes to content. So if I also sold shoes I can set up a shoe shop and can put a normal ad up that would meet all pg guidelines but no one but those searching for adult content would find it. It effectively zones adult land as only fit for adult activities. Yet those on pg and mature can place ads in either and advertise adult activities, goods and services and as long as they don't use any of the words on that extremely limited naughty word list they're fine.

I don't see why I have to be pushed into buying more land back on mature if I want to sell my full range of items. That was never explicitly stated as being part of this and it's not equitable. I don't want to be running multiple venues. I just want to have all my different brands on the same patch of land, have a nice common build and target my different markets through different advertising mechanisms. Yet I'm no longer allowed to do that. People can find slutwear on mature mainland because slut isn't a dirty word it seems but you can't find my candlesticks because the land I'm on is tainted.

All of this because LL aren't very good at IT development and take the quick and easy way for everything without caring what the result is.



we know. it's not just that though. They were fully prepared to force us to abandon our old mainland as part of the swap deal - until I pointed out blondin that if they allowed us to sell it to others then they would still be making tier on it rather than losing all that income. How they can be so completely stupid is beyond me but there you have it.

That's why this may just work. The appeal to fairness won't if they have to do any work but since the code is actually there (as demonstrated by the bug) their input is minimal and they may just do it.

although Blondin claims LL have some dastardly plan to get everyone to comply. I'm dreading it, I've seen the results of their plans and no one ever escapes unscathed.