Emerald Viewer - Are they responsibile for the bugs or not?
|
|
Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
|
10-24-2009 08:57
O.K. So according to at least 1 person, Lyla Tunwarm, the Emerald viewer team should not be held to any sort of standard beyond what LL is held to: From: Lyla Tunwarm This is kinda ironic.. LL operates the same way all the time. People still lose inventory items and it has been years since that bug has been going on. No show stopper there. Why should Emerald be held to a higher standard than LL?
---------- Do you agree with this sort of reasoning? Right now, Emerald does not come with any sort of mandatory "read me" disclaimer language that attempts to absolve them of any complications, loss of inventory, etc, which may occur from using their product in conjunction with Second Life. Is this right? Do they need to include some sort of language to protect themselves? Should they be held to the same standard LL is? (What standard IS LL held to at all?). So the questions are: (1) If a 3rd party produces a viewer that eats your inventory, should they be responsible? If so, how? If not, then why not? (2) Should the Emerald team be held to some sort of quality standard? (3) Does the Emerald team need to include a disclaimer to protect themselves? (4) Is it fair to users to hold the Emerald team to whatever standard LL seems to operate under and would that mean the Emerald team gets the same protections? What do you think? |
|
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
|
10-24-2009 09:01
They should definitely have a disclaimer. Without knowing the bug that is eating inventory it's hard to see where the responsibility lies.
|
|
Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
|
10-24-2009 09:06
Going on Nika's post in the other thread I would say only to a point. What they should do is warn potential users that the viewer introduces features that may behave unpredictably, and extreme caution should be used.
_____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com
|
|
LittleMe Jewell
...........
Join date: 8 Oct 2007
Posts: 11,319
|
10-24-2009 09:07
I don't know that they should be held to a HIGHER standard than LL, but all code developers should try to test their products thoroughly.
I think the biggest disclaimer they should have is on the download page warning folks that the average idiot online user should maybe not be messing with their viewer -- or at least not the latest version. Maybe they should set up their download page sort of like LL, a section for the current release but call it Beta until it has been out for a while, and a section for the previous release that is considered solid/stable.
_____________________
♥♥♥
-Lil
Why do you sit there looking like an envelope without any address on it?
~Mark Twain~
Optimism is denial, so face the facts and move on.
♥♥♥
Lil's Yard Sale / Inventory Cleanout: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Triggerfish/52/27/22
.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/littleme_jewell
|
|
Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
|
10-24-2009 09:13
I think they need a disclaimer.
I also think the disclaimer should be a pop-up that has to be agreed upon and no matter what the choice the person makes, that data should be sent back to the Emerald team servers and recorded so they know that Account Name "X" on this day and time, clicked AGREE or DISAGREE and used the viewer or not.
|
|
Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
|
10-24-2009 09:35
They should be held to a higher standard than LL because
a) they aren't having to manage a hugely complex server product which integrates millions of users at once;
b) they are actively promoting themselves as being a higher standand than LL.
|
|
Lyla Tunwarm
Registered User
Join date: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 179
|
10-24-2009 09:43
From: Briana Dawson O.K. So according to at least 1 person, Lyla Tunwarm, the Emerald viewer team should not be held to any sort of standard beyond what LL is held to: And my response in that thread. From: Lyla Tunwarm Clearly I worded my response wrong. You can't expect a viewer to be better than what LL's servers can handle. No matter how good Emerald is SL will make it look bad. As in this case. In no way should SL's code allow a viewer to remove a shape from inventory unless the user deletes it.
I assume the Emerald team was under the impression it was not possible for this to happen so they didn't even make an effort to QC it.
Of course there should be standards but if you hold a viewer to a higher standard than what SL is capable of providing then you will be disappointed because no matter what the viewer can do doesn't mean it will do it in SL consistently or reliably (thats why it isn't in the official viewer already). When it doesn't work then you are up in arms over an issue that isn't the viewers fault because you hold it to a unrealistic high standard.
Hold it to a high standard sure, but be realistic. It is a 3rd party prototype viewer. LL would add the options if they could get those options to work properly. You should expect issues with options that LL viewers don't have because LL probably has not finished the code to properly utilize those options.. Clearly LL has not polished the Avatar physics code or Emerald would not be having this issue right now. Thats why avatar physics is not in the official viewer.
At least Emerald acknowledges the issue and immediately warns you about it. When you login it is right there on the login page "[EMERALD] WARNING! don't lose your shapes!" with a clickable link. How often does LL do that? |
|
Nika Talaj
now you see her ...
Join date: 2 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,449
|
10-24-2009 10:10
From: Yumi Murakami They should be held to a higher standard than LL because
a) they aren't having to manage a hugely complex server product which integrates millions of users at once;
b) they are actively promoting themselves as being a higher standand than LL. What! They are promoting themselves as adding neat features to LL's viewer, they say nothing to lead anyone to believe their viewer is more robust. Here is the first line from Modular's website: From: someone There are many people working on this viewer, mainly, Linden Labs has created 99.9% of all the code in this viewer. So, they take a fully QA'd codebase and add features to it. They also add in bug fixes and patches. They list 15 developers, who I'm sure work part-time, and ONE support person, LGG, who is also the lead developer. They list 3 folks as doing "releases", (presumably build managers; they are also all 3 developers) and no one as doing system test. Note the odd character at the end of the sentence above. The website has not been vetted for character set support, or perhaps Firefox compatibilty, or perhaps it's a typo. It's also a hint. Take Emerald for what it is, an exciting glimpse of what's possible with a modicum of effort. Keep in mind that it *must* take LL much more time to release equivalent features. They test much more exhaustively, they ensure compatibility with more PCs, they have performance standards (Emerald's frame rate, at least on lower-end machines, is noticably lower than even Snowglobe's), their code has to be localizable, lalala. ETA: Of course, LL has to WANT to put in any of these features before they permit their developers to begin work on them. If folks knew stuff like what Emerald's doing was in the pipeline at LL, there would have been no necessity for Emerald. LL's been stonewalling new features for so long that users are willing to expose themselves to almost anything. |
|
Boy Lane
Evil Dolly
Join date: 8 May 2007
Posts: 690
|
10-24-2009 10:59
Good point. I did not think about this, so probably did the Emerald guys. Not that it changes anything tho  .
_____________________
Cool Viewers for Virtual Worlds, Home of Rainbow: http://my.opera.com/boylane Download: http://coolviewer.googlecode.com Source: http://github.com/boy  Be plurked: http://plurk.com/BoyLane/invite
|
|
LordGregGreg Back
Code
Join date: 9 Mar 2008
Posts: 16
|
10-24-2009 11:34
From: Briana Dawson
(1) If a 3rd party produces a viewer that eats your inventory, should they be responsible? If so, how? If not, then why not?
(2) Should the Emerald team be held to some sort of quality standard?
(3) Does the Emerald team need to include a disclaimer to protect themselves?
(4) Is it fair to users to hold the Emerald team to whatever standard LL seems to operate under and would that mean the Emerald team gets the same protections?
What do you think?
Hey there I suppose I would put up a disclaimer if anyone has ever .. had anything bad happen because they used emerald. But so far in all the support issues ive answered, no one has, the worst thing to happen was them go back to the regular LL viewer. (For help about missing inventory, its really just a confused cache, check out here for the fix to it http://code.google.com/p/greenlifeemeraldviewer/wiki/FixInventoryLoss ) And your welcome to hold us to any standard you feel like. We have a little disclaimer in the installer to protect ourselfs from blood thirsty lawyers, specially around this time of year, but to be honest, we are more concerned with the bugs in our code than most of yall are  But.. the rest is just.. i duno. Hold us to whatever standards you want, im used to helping whinny people and thankfull people alike. Just try to understand that.. none of us are getting paid. We do this to make yall happy. |
|
Kidd Krasner
Registered User
Join date: 1 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,938
|
10-24-2009 11:42
Define "responsible" in this context. Legally responsible? Morally responsible? Responsible under professional ethics?
|
|
Ann Otoole
Registered User
Join date: 22 May 2007
Posts: 867
|
10-24-2009 11:52
Since Inventory is server side I sort of wonder about this topic.
Has anyone tested the LL compiles to see if inventory vanishes under the same reproducible conditions?
If Emerald is doing something that is causing losses that the LL compile is not doing then LL needs to correct the server side code deficiency anyway because it is a serious defect and probable vulnerability of some degree.
I just don't think I have seen all the details on this nor has it been discussed at any office hours I have been attending. Hard to form an opinion on this situation at this time.
|
|
Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
|
10-24-2009 12:21
From: LordGregGreg Back Hey there Heya.. There's another post here, one about the Emerald shape/jiggle issue, that you might want to peek into...  .
_____________________
Sick of sims locking up every time somebody TPs in? Vote for SVC-3895!!! - Go here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3895- If you see "if you were logged in.." on the left, click it and log in - Click the "Vote for it" link on the left
|
|
Katheryne Helendale
(loading...)
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,187
|
10-24-2009 13:58
From: LordGregGreg Back Just try to understand that.. none of us are getting paid. We do this to make yall happy. This. Okay, guys. While I understand the frustration of losing inventory, pulling the Emerald developers out into the street and beating them to within an inch of their lives out in public is NOT the solution. You guys are *knowingly* using free, third-party software that you didn't have to pay for, developed by people as a hobby and not as part of their job. The disclaimer "Use at your own risk" is clearly implicit: It is common sense. For what it's worth, I have lost far more inventory using LL's official viewers than I ever have with Emerald. |
|
Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
|
10-24-2009 14:11
From: LordGregGreg Back (For help about missing inventory, its really just a confused cache... All this fuss over mere cache corruption?
_____________________
Archived for Your Protection
|
|
Dagmar Heideman
Bokko Dancer
Join date: 2 Feb 2007
Posts: 989
|
10-24-2009 15:09
From: Katheryne Helendale You guys are *knowingly* using free, third-party software that you didn't have to pay for, developed by people as a hobby and not as part of their job. The disclaimer "Use at your own risk" is clearly implicit: It is common sense. QFT |
|
Imnotgoing Sideways
Can't outlaw cute! =^-^=
Join date: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 4,694
|
10-24-2009 15:22
From: Linden Lab TOS 5.4 Linden Lab provides the Service on an "as is" basis, without express or implied warranties.
LINDEN LAB PROVIDES THE SERVICE, THE LINDEN SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND ALL OTHER SERVICES STRICTLY ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, PROVIDED AT YOUR OWN RISK, AND HEREBY EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, WRITTEN OR ORAL, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
Without limiting the foregoing, Linden Lab does not ensure continuous, error-free, secure or virus-free operation of the Service, the Linden Software or your Account, and you understand that you shall not be entitled to refunds for fees based on Linden Lab's failure to provide any of the foregoing other than as explicitly provided in this Agreement. Some jurisdictions do not allow the disclaimer of implied warranties, and to that extent, the foregoing disclaimer may not apply to you. This is a TOS and usage agreement mantra in open source realms. (^_^)y |
