Second Life Forums Archive - Why is LL trying to sell their customer data to Aristotle.com?

Malachi Petunia

Gentle Miscreant

Join date: 21 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,414

05-06-2007 07:13

There are many, many threads about LL's announced "age verification" which will be processed by a third-party firm, http://aristotle.com.

In those many threads, people have put forth all sorts of speculations that this new policy is to "protect the children" or to "reduce LL's liability for exposing children to smut" or to "reduce griefers". I don't find any of those guesses compelling because LL certainly demonstrates no moral compass and has been progressively getting out of the grid policing game.

Having seen many business deals of convenience or opportunity, I have to conjecture that there are less community-minded reasons for LL's stated policy:

Aristotle is a small start-up down the street from LL who is seemingly desperate for customers. Often heads of firm A will help out firm B particularly if the respective heads are friends.
Aristotle's primary business line appears to be providing information to US political parties. Outside of the Daily Show audience, where but SL would you find such a dense population of lefties? (note, you could reasonably call me a leftie, that's not an insult)
Aristotle already has voter registration databases which can help turn the "last four digits of your SS#" and your zip-code into a real identity.

LL has moved over the years from treating their customers as world builders, content creators, to annoyances, and finally to a salable product. Have they really become so contemptuous?

_____________________

SuezanneC Baskerville

Forums Rock!

Join date: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 14,229

05-06-2007 08:06

I haven't seen anyone mention that the Integrity company is headed up by John Aristotle Phillips, the "A-Bomb Kid" that got investigated by the FBI for building a mockup of an atom bomb, under supervision by Freeman Dyson, so I'll just throw that in here.

Is Aristotle really a small start-up firm? The company was founded in 1983 in Washington D.C., according to what I'm reading.

From a story dated 11-9-2000, at http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/11/09/aristotle.voters.db.idg/index.html

From: someone

Now after almost 20 years of serving the political elite, Aristotle hopes to exploit the Internet market. The company has begun to sell its voter database to Web sites that use the information to better target advertisements and e-mail at consumers.

Soon, the voter lists will be offered in a service to verify the age and identity of prospective customers for sites that sell alcohol and other adult products. Aristotle has filed for an initial public offering to boot.

But the notion of Web marketers invading the sanctity of the voting booth could strike a raw nerve among policy makers, potentially making Aristotle's plans to commercialize voter registration lists the latest flash point in the ongoing debate over online privacy. Already 25 states, including California, Georgia and Pennsylvania, prohibit the commercial use of voter registration records.
[...]
Aristotle has painstakingly assembled its national voter database from hundreds of jurisdictions, each of which has different procedures and fees for accessing its rolls. The database also includes additional information gleaned from sources like driver's license records and commercial marketing lists. Combine all that information and the appeal to advertisers becomes apparent. If, say, 25- year-old Green Party members from Portland, Ore., go online, Aristotle can tell advertisers to show them ads for electric cars or perhaps the collected works of Ralph Nader.

_____________________

-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-

Inigo Chamerberlin

Registered User

Join date: 13 May 2006

Posts: 448

05-06-2007 08:24

The Phillips brothers - who run Aristotle have indeed been around a while. As have their businesses.
The risibly named 'Integrity' appears to be more recent, designed to jump on the 'interweb gambling is ungodly, immoral and loosing the US Gov tax revenue, Goddamit!' bandwagon.
More worrying is that the parent company is heavily into both the US and UK governments and quite a few others. Into as in 'in the pocket of'. This firm actually boasts of their political connections!
There are also indications that they aren't above selling the data they harvest to just about anyone. I mean, they MIGHT hesitate about selling your passport data to terrorists, there again, if they presented a convincing front, they might not.

Corporate backscratching with Linden Lab? I'm inclined to doubt it, despite the locations of these two actors.

This has a lot to do with pressure from the US government, not necessarily the current one either...

Ishtara Rothschild

Do not expose to sunlight

Join date: 21 Apr 2006

Posts: 569

05-06-2007 08:44

"For candidates and political parties"
"...help craft strategy and implement proven technology to achieve your objectives at the ballot box"

Whatever those strategies might involve in combination with gathering of personal data through age verification services, I guess. Democratic candidate thrown out of the race for browsing porn sites? Doesn't matter in the public eye if it's only a virtual Lewinsky.

Most interesting. Thanks for digging this out.

cHex Losangeles

Registered User

Join date: 24 Nov 2006

Posts: 370

05-06-2007 10:02

Aristotle is owned by a couple of Philips brothers...LL is owned by a Philip. Coincidence? I don't think so...

Zaphod Kotobide

zOMGWTFPME!

Join date: 19 Oct 2006

Posts: 2,087

05-06-2007 12:02

Ahh now there you go cHex - You've just uncovered the very core of this vast conspiracy. Word on the virtual street is that all the members of the group "Gay 4 Philip" are in on it. There are a few Lindens in that group, which further lends credibility.

From: cHex Losangeles

Aristotle is owned by a couple of Philips brothers...LL is owned by a Philip. Coincidence? I don't think so...

SuezanneC Baskerville

Forums Rock!

Join date: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 14,229

05-06-2007 12:05

From: cHex Losangeles

Aristotle is owned by a couple of Philips brothers...LL is owned by a Philip. Coincidence? I don't think so...

There's a company named Philip Morris, Morris is the name of a sim. The web gets denser and stickier.

_____________________

-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-

Gillian Vuckovic

Purple Power!

Join date: 4 Mar 2007

Posts: 176

05-06-2007 12:14

We're through the looking glass people...

_____________________

It's always a party with Funzo!

Walker Moore

Fоrum Unregular

Join date: 14 May 2006

Posts: 1,458

05-06-2007 12:22

From: SuezanneC Baskerville

I haven't seen anyone mention that the Integrity company is headed up by John Aristotle Phillips, the "A-Bomb Kid" that got investigated by the FBI for building a mockup of an atom bomb, under supervision by Freeman Dyson, so I'll just throw that in here.

Interesting article Suezanne. This telegraph piece by Andrew Cave caught my eye earlier because it states that Integrity has a data centre in the UK. Does that mean my data won't be exported to the USA? If so, that would resolve one of my biggest concerns, but that still doesn't make the scheme reasonable for the rest of the world.

It's also been suggested elsewhere that LL found Integrity through Google, and went with them because they ticked all the right boxes, but Mr A-Bomb Philips suggests online gaming is a market he's actively pursuing:

"...online gaming is growing rapidly and promises to be a huge market if it can overcome a welter of lawsuits and legislative assaults in the US."

Another of his remarks makes it obvious why Linden Lab chose this company for verification purposes:

"We're the only ones who insure the merchant because we are confident enough in the technology we use."

So if Johnny Upstairs

does illegally verify himself with a parent's SS number, Integrity will take full responsibility, not LL.

_____________________

It's only a forum, no one dies.

SuezanneC Baskerville

Forums Rock!

Join date: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 14,229

05-06-2007 12:44

From: Gillian Vuckovic

We're through the looking glass people...

the Looking Glass

Maybe LL selected Integrity because Mr. Philips threatened to blow them up with one of his homemade A-bombs.

You have to admit, that would be a persuasive sales technique.

Well, if this Integrity age verifying thing doesn't work out and costs LL an arm and a leg, it won't be the first time a project of Mr. Philips' has turned out be a-bomb.

_____________________

-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-

Musicteacher Rampal

Registered User

Join date: 20 Feb 2004

Posts: 824

05-06-2007 13:30

Where does it say that LL is using Integrity for the verification? It's not in the orgional blog entry as far as I can tell ad neither is it in the comments by LL...

Walker Moore

Fоrum Unregular

Join date: 14 May 2006

Posts: 1,458

05-06-2007 13:33

From: Musicteacher Rampal

Where does it say that LL is using Integrity for the verification? It's not in the orgional blog entry as far as I can tell ad neither is it in the comments by LL...

If you find a Linden at Grasmere, they will confirm it. Otherwise, if you IM Daniel Linden (the one who wrote the blog entry) he'll confirm it too.

_____________________

It's only a forum, no one dies.

Guido Columbia

Registered User

Join date: 25 Oct 2005

Posts: 102

05-06-2007 13:56

"Privately held, investors in Aristotle include William Hambrecht and Rupert Murdoch’s E-Partners."

http://www.eapc.com/member/biographies/bio_usa_phillips.html

As long as you trust FOXNews you are okay..

--

"The Global Self Exclusion Database is developed by a US ID verification company called Aristotle, backed by Rupert Murdoch and Hambrecht, the US financial services group, and will be launched on Tuesday.

About 80 per cent of gambling sites licensed in the UK use Aristotle's ID verification system."

http://integrity.aristotle.com/index.php_option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=52.html

That's likely the real reason for using Aristotle, not particularly adult access..

Why is LL trying to sell their customer data to Aristotle.com?
Malachi Petunia Gentle Miscreant Join date: 21 Sep 2003 Posts: 3,414	05-06-2007 07:13 There are many, many threads about LL's announced "age verification" which will be processed by a third-party firm, http://aristotle.com. In those many threads, people have put forth all sorts of speculations that this new policy is to "protect the children" or to "reduce LL's liability for exposing children to smut" or to "reduce griefers". I don't find any of those guesses compelling because LL certainly demonstrates no moral compass and has been progressively getting out of the grid policing game. Having seen many business deals of convenience or opportunity, I have to conjecture that there are less community-minded reasons for LL's stated policy: Aristotle is a small start-up down the street from LL who is seemingly desperate for customers. Often heads of firm A will help out firm B particularly if the respective heads are friends. Aristotle's primary business line appears to be providing information to US political parties. Outside of the Daily Show audience, where but SL would you find such a dense population of lefties? (note, you could reasonably call me a leftie, that's not an insult) Aristotle already has voter registration databases which can help turn the "last four digits of your SS#" and your zip-code into a real identity. LL has moved over the years from treating their customers as world builders, content creators, to annoyances, and finally to a salable product. Have they really become so contemptuous? _____________________
SuezanneC Baskerville Forums Rock! Join date: 22 Dec 2003 Posts: 14,229	05-06-2007 08:06 I haven't seen anyone mention that the Integrity company is headed up by John Aristotle Phillips, the "A-Bomb Kid" that got investigated by the FBI for building a mockup of an atom bomb, under supervision by Freeman Dyson, so I'll just throw that in here. Is Aristotle really a small start-up firm? The company was founded in 1983 in Washington D.C., according to what I'm reading. From a story dated 11-9-2000, at http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/11/09/aristotle.voters.db.idg/index.html From: someone Now after almost 20 years of serving the political elite, Aristotle hopes to exploit the Internet market. The company has begun to sell its voter database to Web sites that use the information to better target advertisements and e-mail at consumers. Soon, the voter lists will be offered in a service to verify the age and identity of prospective customers for sites that sell alcohol and other adult products. Aristotle has filed for an initial public offering to boot. But the notion of Web marketers invading the sanctity of the voting booth could strike a raw nerve among policy makers, potentially making Aristotle's plans to commercialize voter registration lists the latest flash point in the ongoing debate over online privacy. Already 25 states, including California, Georgia and Pennsylvania, prohibit the commercial use of voter registration records. [...] Aristotle has painstakingly assembled its national voter database from hundreds of jurisdictions, each of which has different procedures and fees for accessing its rolls. The database also includes additional information gleaned from sources like driver's license records and commercial marketing lists. Combine all that information and the appeal to advertisers becomes apparent. If, say, 25- year-old Green Party members from Portland, Ore., go online, Aristotle can tell advertisers to show them ads for electric cars or perhaps the collected works of Ralph Nader. _____________________ - So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan -
Inigo Chamerberlin Registered User Join date: 13 May 2006 Posts: 448	05-06-2007 08:24 The Phillips brothers - who run Aristotle have indeed been around a while. As have their businesses. The risibly named 'Integrity' appears to be more recent, designed to jump on the 'interweb gambling is ungodly, immoral and loosing the US Gov tax revenue, Goddamit!' bandwagon. More worrying is that the parent company is heavily into both the US and UK governments and quite a few others. Into as in 'in the pocket of'. This firm actually boasts of their political connections! There are also indications that they aren't above selling the data they harvest to just about anyone. I mean, they MIGHT hesitate about selling your passport data to terrorists, there again, if they presented a convincing front, they might not. Corporate backscratching with Linden Lab? I'm inclined to doubt it, despite the locations of these two actors. This has a lot to do with pressure from the US government, not necessarily the current one either...
Ishtara Rothschild Do not expose to sunlight Join date: 21 Apr 2006 Posts: 569	05-06-2007 08:44 "For candidates and political parties" "...help craft strategy and implement proven technology to achieve your objectives at the ballot box" Whatever those strategies might involve in combination with gathering of personal data through age verification services, I guess. Democratic candidate thrown out of the race for browsing porn sites? Doesn't matter in the public eye if it's only a virtual Lewinsky. Most interesting. Thanks for digging this out.
cHex Losangeles Registered User Join date: 24 Nov 2006 Posts: 370	05-06-2007 10:02 Aristotle is owned by a couple of Philips brothers...LL is owned by a Philip. Coincidence? I don't think so...
Zaphod Kotobide zOMGWTFPME! Join date: 19 Oct 2006 Posts: 2,087	05-06-2007 12:02 Ahh now there you go cHex - You've just uncovered the very core of this vast conspiracy. Word on the virtual street is that all the members of the group "Gay 4 Philip" are in on it. There are a few Lindens in that group, which further lends credibility. From: cHex Losangeles Aristotle is owned by a couple of Philips brothers...LL is owned by a Philip. Coincidence? I don't think so...
SuezanneC Baskerville Forums Rock! Join date: 22 Dec 2003 Posts: 14,229	05-06-2007 12:05 From: cHex Losangeles Aristotle is owned by a couple of Philips brothers...LL is owned by a Philip. Coincidence? I don't think so... There's a company named Philip Morris, Morris is the name of a sim. The web gets denser and stickier. _____________________ - So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan -
Gillian Vuckovic Purple Power! Join date: 4 Mar 2007 Posts: 176	05-06-2007 12:14 We're through the looking glass people... _____________________ It's always a party with Funzo!
Walker Moore Fоrum Unregular Join date: 14 May 2006 Posts: 1,458	05-06-2007 12:22 From: SuezanneC Baskerville I haven't seen anyone mention that the Integrity company is headed up by John Aristotle Phillips, the "A-Bomb Kid" that got investigated by the FBI for building a mockup of an atom bomb, under supervision by Freeman Dyson, so I'll just throw that in here. Interesting article Suezanne. This telegraph piece by Andrew Cave caught my eye earlier because it states that Integrity has a data centre in the UK. Does that mean my data won't be exported to the USA? If so, that would resolve one of my biggest concerns, but that still doesn't make the scheme reasonable for the rest of the world. It's also been suggested elsewhere that LL found Integrity through Google, and went with them because they ticked all the right boxes, but Mr A-Bomb Philips suggests online gaming is a market he's actively pursuing: "...online gaming is growing rapidly and promises to be a huge market if it can overcome a welter of lawsuits and legislative assaults in the US." Another of his remarks makes it obvious why Linden Lab chose this company for verification purposes: "We're the only ones who insure the merchant because we are confident enough in the technology we use." So if Johnny Upstairs does illegally verify himself with a parent's SS number, Integrity will take full responsibility, not LL. _____________________ It's only a forum, no one dies.
SuezanneC Baskerville Forums Rock! Join date: 22 Dec 2003 Posts: 14,229	05-06-2007 12:44 From: Gillian Vuckovic We're through the looking glass people... the Looking Glass Maybe LL selected Integrity because Mr. Philips threatened to blow them up with one of his homemade A-bombs. You have to admit, that would be a persuasive sales technique. Well, if this Integrity age verifying thing doesn't work out and costs LL an arm and a leg, it won't be the first time a project of Mr. Philips' has turned out be a-bomb. _____________________ - So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan -
Musicteacher Rampal Registered User Join date: 20 Feb 2004 Posts: 824	05-06-2007 13:30 Where does it say that LL is using Integrity for the verification? It's not in the orgional blog entry as far as I can tell ad neither is it in the comments by LL...
Walker Moore Fоrum Unregular Join date: 14 May 2006 Posts: 1,458	05-06-2007 13:33 From: Musicteacher Rampal Where does it say that LL is using Integrity for the verification? It's not in the orgional blog entry as far as I can tell ad neither is it in the comments by LL... If you find a Linden at Grasmere, they will confirm it. Otherwise, if you IM Daniel Linden (the one who wrote the blog entry) he'll confirm it too. _____________________ It's only a forum, no one dies.
Guido Columbia Registered User Join date: 25 Oct 2005 Posts: 102	05-06-2007 13:56 "Privately held, investors in Aristotle include William Hambrecht and Rupert Murdoch’s E-Partners." http://www.eapc.com/member/biographies/bio_usa_phillips.html As long as you trust FOXNews you are okay.. -- "The Global Self Exclusion Database is developed by a US ID verification company called Aristotle, backed by Rupert Murdoch and Hambrecht, the US financial services group, and will be launched on Tuesday. About 80 per cent of gambling sites licensed in the UK use Aristotle's ID verification system." http://integrity.aristotle.com/index.php_option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=52.html That's likely the real reason for using Aristotle, not particularly adult access..

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Why is LL trying to sell their customer data to Aristotle.com?