RE: LL law suit

For those that do not know yet, Second Life is being sued. Refer to this thread:


I felt I had to start this new thread and see what people think, whatever constructive comments they got. Here's my toughts:


I'm glad RL companies are protected. And yes SL companies needs better protection as well, especially for the new companies, or those that just stay small and don't make enough profit to register a company in RL.

Time to show who are the real creators, who have talent, who works hard and who can do business.


RL Laws:
SL is a new world but it has to respect RL. So better starting by respecting RL rules and from there building the new world, the best we can. After all, some business owners in SL make RL profit. So RL laws have to apply here.

Escape from RL:
Some people finds an escape from RL, in SL. When someone joins SL they don't necessarely join with business goals. So the restrictions you will read in this post should be too much of a pain for the REALLY new residents in SL.

SL Business:
Before starting a business I believe it is best to learn about SL first, by exploring, studying sl and learn what we are good at doing and know what we want to do. If one wants to start a business he will have better chances to succeed then.

Malicious intentions:
Some people open new accounts with goals of hurting others either by griefing, harrassing, using copybots, hacking etc. you name it.


My ideas:

1. Restrict new accounts privileges
Cannot do:
-New accounts cannot be used for business before a certain period of time, lets say a month
-New accounts cannot send anything BUT notecards and snapshots before lets say a month

This would help prevent copybotters, hackers and whoever trying to hurt us by sending our items full perm to all to be able to open an account and use it same day... (some go "out of town" to use them not to be caught doing so on their own pc) *cough* would name someone who did this to me but not going to post the name
Also it could help reducing SOME of the griefing.

-Disable any new account inactive for, again, lets say example a month.
-This would help discourage copybotters from opening an account and wait a month before using it again...

-Cannot resell anything. Cannot start a business.
-Cannot send textures (this would mean they could resell profile pics etc and clothings)
-Cannot send any object/inventory except snapshots and notecards.
-Cannot place LMs, textures, pics, scripts or any object at all in notecards they send.

Scripts codes can be pasted in notecards (no way to prevent this I think) but the creator of it then would not be the new account so the creator will probably at least rather wait to be allowed to resell before sending it to anyone.


Can do:
-Receive items/linden, buy linden, buy items/services, send linden.
-Take snapshots and send them.
-Write notecards and send them (cannot place LMs, textures, pics, items)
-Attend to SL classes, learn to build etc.
-Use any object scripted or not.


2. Starting a business in SL:
-Would have to be registered company with logo/name etc. to be allowed to resell anything.
-LL needs a business directory
-Waiting period of lets say a month (can be less or more) after joining sl
-Would have to prove he/she creates what he/she resell or that he/she is allowed (have the permission from creator) to resell the content they want to sell.


3. Alts:
Business owners alts, wich are newly created for business purpose, would have same privileges as business owners, as long as they are linked to the main account. If an alt is not linked to a main account, then it would have newbies privilege restrictions.


4. Rules infragment:
In case of infragment, severe consequences should apply on first offense.
If an alt is used, not only should the alt account be deleted but also, the main account should automatically be suspended.


5. RL Profit:
Due to RL laws, unless a company is registered RL, there should be a limit about how much one can cash out linden.


6. Lawyers:
From what I could read, linden still have hard time to know exactly what is allowed and not allowed to do regarding the use of RL company names/logos. They tell us it is our responsability to keep ourself informed about what is allowed and not allowed by reading whatever they write but they are unclear and then offer no help when we have questions about specific cases. They need to consult lawyers about it before they impose new rules... and either make it more simple for us to understand either offer classes to understand them better.


7. SL business classes:
-LL need to offer business classes by qualitifed "teacher" wich could be a lawyer
I know lawyers are expensive, but there has to be some of them who would be willing to help, if not then just someone that knows what has to be taught will do I guess. I might be dreaming here... but well ;p
-Basic SL rules better and more clear understanding
-Help with questions about specific cases (whats allowed whats not etc)


LL do need a much more organised SL...


Excuse the way I write and the typos, I'm french speaker.

I'm not offering the perfect solution. But you get the idea. It is not flawless, I'm not saying it would not be frustrating for new residents, it needs adjustments and LL knows better some things I don't. Assuming they truly care, I'm just hoping they will fix their things to help SL business owners, always taking RL laws in consideration.


Feel free to add suggestions.

There was a thread here discussing the lawsuit and the issue, but I cannot find it so I am assuming that it was removed as LL probably does not want us discussing this stuff.

Actually I include the link to that thread , first thing in my post. Isn't the one you talk about?

edit: Also I'm just trying to be constructive I don't think LL would delete/remove this thread.

No one from LL ever visits this forum. Do whatever you want.

I just want to point out that neither of these actions prevent copybotting, or similar copybot type activities. A copybot just needs to see an item to copy it, the copy is actually stored on the local drive, not in SL, and that file can be past to anyone, even rezzed in an OpenSim environment It don't have to be able to rez a thing in SL.
Also the latest griefings are wearing objects with particles and chat spamming, neither of which requires rezzing a separate object. Unless you restrict new avatars to the default library that hole will be there.
Disable accounts for inactivity for a month will not lock out a griefer. They would just program the bot to log in once a day/week or whatever period you set.

Remember the police can't protect you from crime most of the time. Their main job is to catch criminals after the fact. So the only system that would work is something to detect it occurred in the first place, and then able to track them down.

Opps - I went looking for it and was apparently blind as I skipped right over it.

"when" LL visits the forums, I am often surprised at some of the things they seem to not like us to discuss, but Ray is right and LL does not seem to come here anymore.

It don't prevent copybotting from happening but that is not me to give solution to that, I'm not LL technician. I would love to say "just stop the copybots already" but I have no idea of how they must do so because I do not know how exactly it works and what can be done against it. I cannot suggest anything about that.

I did say that I'm not offering any perfect solution, it needs tweaking and that is LL to see how they can do.

Though you must admit that my idea is not bad at all... if we are going to have to follow RL laws in here then lets do it right

They gotta have moderators though. So I'd say more like they ignore us... :/

Let's... enjoy? roflmao.

Nope. There is only Millie. And she is just as Resident Moderator.The Lindens very rarely look in here. Reading these forums gives them Supersad.

I say before asking us to following RL Laws, LL needs to do same... and right now they just can't because of the glitches and copybots that allows people to copy our stuff. They must adjust themself.

Bonjour Karine. I shall try to give you my honest feedback on your suggestions, as one who has been active in SL for about 4 years nowm, and an active merchant for much of that time.

While well-intentioned, I think you will find that someone who intends to defraud or otherwise cause trouble would easily evade all of these restrictions, while it would become a major problem for many who are innocent of all ill intent.

A con artist or griefer would merely determine what the minimum requirements were to "bake" a safe alt, such as logging in weekly and buying a prim from one of their other alts. The criminals among us had no qualms about creating hundreds of Premium accounts to farm the old First Land program for a profit of less than $50 USD per account created. These restrictions would not stop such individuals.

They might at least slow down the casual griefer - the person who creates an anonymous alt in minutes and uses it until it gets banned, and then comes back minutes later with a shiny new alt.

But it would also discourage many new users from trying to use SL at all.

Again, well-intended, but much more harmful to honest people than to rogues and thieves and griefers.

SL Businesses often start on a micro-budget, and often are not profitable at all at first. Having to be a "Registered Company", if by that you mean habing a business name that is registered with real-world civil authorities, costs money that many would be unwilling to spend, to start up a business that may only pay pennies per item sold. And while the idea that every merchant should "have to prove he/she creates what he/she resell or that he/she is allowed (have the permission from creator) to resell the content they want to sell." is a laudable goal, just how would you prove that? Who would arbitrate that every t-shirt texture that I made as a start-up clothing artist was my own work, and not scanned from a catalog of commercially available t-shirts? The cost of maintaining the infrastructure to track such efforts would far exceed the provits that most of us make in SL.


This, I think is a good idea. I would take this a step further. I think ALL alts, for any reason of creation, should be linked in some way to a main account that is known to Linden Lab. This linkage need not be public knowledge. But if I register my main account with my full and correct real-world information and payment info and age verification on file with LL, all my alts should share that linkage, and the benefits of being "me". And if I mis-use one of my accounts, for griefing, stalking, or fraud, then ALl my accounts should suffer the same punishment. There should be no way to create an account that LL can not trace to a real person somewhere, for disciplinary purposes.


See above. To do this, all existing anonymous alts would have to be linked to a registered Main account that has valid real-world information on file. But there is a problem here, as well. Imposing "severe consequences should apply on first offense" leaves no leeway for false accusations or mistaken identity. Let's say, for example, that you log in to SL one morning, to find an enormus pink megaprim covering your entire parcel, screaming chat and Voice obcenities at you. You click on the prim, see it was "created by Ceera Murakami" and abuse report me severely. BUT I DID NOT PUT IT THERE! A Megaprim always shows its original Creator, but only a handful of SL residents have ever had a chance to make them. Most are copies of existing ones that people like me give away for free. It was the OWNER of that megaprim that you should have abuse reported. But not knowing that, you falsely accuse me, and jepoardize my entire in-world existance? For something not my fault? Justice must be tempered by reason, and there must be due process and a means to appeal bad desicions. Few such protections exist in SL, and if a first offense is dealt a severe blow, many innocents will suffer.


Why? It is sufficent for the individual to follow the tax laws in their own country, and report their income accordingly. Sure, if I am earning tens of thousands of real dollars in SL, it's no big deal to pay to register my company name with my county of residence. My own business and even my avatar name in SL ARE registered with my local civil authorities, as legal "Doing business as" pseudonyms. I can even cash checks made out to "Ceera Murakami". But for a business starting out, placing limits on cashing out will severely curtail most start-up efforts. And with SL having residents internationally, it is not reasonable to expect LL to report resident income to every civil authority worldwide that may have jurisdiction over that avatar's Player.


Oh, they have Lawyers. Just not very good ones, it seems. And even if they ARE good lawyers, the law is very vague on how many real-world laws affect virtual worlds. Even the best of lawyers could debayte for years the merits of any one case in virtual world applicability of real-world laws. And multiply that problem by thousands, for the vrious countries and states and provinces and towns that each have their own laws, often quite contradictory, about various topics.


How would you certify someone as qualified in that area? No University gives out a law degree in law as it applies to Virtual Worlds. No teaching college gives educational certifications for teaching prim building or virtual business practices. Virtual worlds are a new frontier, and the best teachers on these subjects are the residents who have been here for years, and who have, through experience, learned what works here, and what does not. You don't learn that at law school or at teacher's college.

Surely LL the entire grid and everything it contains is ultimately the intellectual property of Linden Lab.

Well new resident can still build and do anything just cannot send much to others. They can receive... and the 1 month is there just has an example.





Right, but wouldn't discourage some? You could use the same argument for any suggested solution... I'm not trying to stop it completely... I'm more realistic than that.





Right, and well, some new users can also be some new malicious intentionned people... can be anyone. Why would they not want to use SL for? Why would they absolutely want to be allowed to sell from the start if they know nothing to SL yet?




Not sure how its a pain for honest people to have a company name and logo in sl wich they already do now? And don't we get asked how to run a business in SL once in a while by new residents? What is so wrong in directing them to classes? If they really want to do it, they will. If they do not well maybe it means that they would not care enough to do it right? Not a big loss...




You assume that there would be fees. I did not say anything about LL asking for money to do it. And I did not say to register RL either. Fees if any could be paid later somehow...




That's just a detail... its doable. Here's just an example. If they have the t-shirt template and texture, they could be asked to modify it in some way?




Exactly what I had in mind.



Well before suspending an account normally there's investigation. (that is another thing that LL needs to work on, I seen some abuse reports never resolved that had totally obvious proofs of who was guilty, and some other ones where no investigation was made at all, where the accused person was suspended asap... corruption? lol)



Well I was also thinking of hackers in this too you know? If you earn 10K USD in 2 days under a new account it is not normal ;p If they make enough money to cash out a lot they should be able to register RL. It also is a way to protect themself...



To teach sl business classes its just someone experienced that really can answer questions about business in sl AND that knows well the TOS and all the rules in sl well enough to be able to answer questions about it too. What I said being able to answer questions about whats allowed and whats not, I was thinking of when SL has been allowing you for example to do something for 2 years but all of sudden says its not allowed no more and you try to adapt to that and ask them if this and that is ok but they do not help.... you're left with what? Unanswered questions, and confusion. Because you do not know if you do whats right no more.

Say what you will about LL, they are not as paranoid about what residents say as many think. Here is the thread on the Commerce Blogs about this topic - nowhere near as long or outspoken as discussion here, but they do not seem to be editing it. Even my post pointing to Quaken's thread has remained:

https://blogs.secondlife.com/message/14565#14565
.