ToS: Copying and Pasting Conversation
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Casey Seifert
No faith in humanity
Join date: 7 Nov 2005
Posts: 50
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12-21-2008 16:53
From: someone Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Lives. Sharing or posting conversation in-world or in the Second Life Forums without consent of all involved Residents is a violation of other Resident's privacy. I haven't realised till now that copying and pasting IMs without consent is against the Terms of Services. Now it seems if I read the E-Mail I have received above, it applies to ANY form of conversation carried out through SecondLife. I was wondering how you should react to a situation, where say: From: someone An administrator abuses their role, and makes it obvious over IM (Instant Message) with you. You contact another administrator of the same Sim to explain the situation, but you can not get a good footing without giving them the IMs from the Administrator who abused their role. Also: How many people actually read the ToS? This seems like a great way to abuse rules for an advantage in SecondLife, people abuse 'Abuse Report' very often just for a 'laugh'. Refreshing the 'Incident Report' page to see whether or not their efforts were invain or not. I know that people do this, I hear a lot about it. Already SL's 'Abuse Report' system is susceptible to a kind of entrapment without something like this. Anyway, I'll be happy to hear what people think of this. <3 From: someone PS: I didn't get an hour ban from copying a conversation from unconsenting Residents, I got it from copying a conversation from a consenting friend who copied and pasted to me, which happened to contain another conversation. But I was the one who got the brunt of it.
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SuezanneC Baskerville
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Join date: 22 Dec 2003
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12-21-2008 17:01
I suppose chat repeaters are in violation. The kind used at meetings and public places to display chat beyond normal chat range.
Oh, and I suppose if you are in group chat and you repost something someone said in that group chat that scrolled offscreen that's a violation too.
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Casey Seifert
No faith in humanity
Join date: 7 Nov 2005
Posts: 50
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12-21-2008 17:09
From: SuezanneC Baskerville I suppose chat repeaters are in violation. The kind used at meetings and public places to display chat beyond normal chat range.
Oh, and I suppose if you are in group chat and you repost something someone said in that group chat that scrolled offscreen that's a violation too. There are many possibilities of abusing this ToS rule for your own personal gain, without interest in the context in which the rule was placed there. (Edit) And lets be honest, Lindens don't have, or spend the time to look into all cases, so I'd imagine a lot of cases go through which was under the absolute intent of abusing the ToS.
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SuezanneC Baskerville
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Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
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12-21-2008 17:22
Are people reading the chat considered to be "involved"? To copy and paste avatar A's chat do you need to get permission from anyone that was in chat range?
If avatar A chats on avatar B's parcel, do you have to get B's permission to copy and paste A's chat? B provided the place where the chat took place. Providing a place is involvement of a sort.
This rule would mean you can't copy and paste chat into an abuse report. That's sharing it with the Governance staff.
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.
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Tarina Sewell
Just Browsing Thank you
Join date: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 2,180
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12-21-2008 17:58
From: Casey Seifert I haven't realised till now that copying and pasting IMs without consent is against the Terms of Services. Now it seems if I read the E-Mail I have received above, it applies to ANY form of conversation carried out through SecondLife.
I was wondering how you should react to a situation, where say:
Also:
How many people actually read the ToS? This seems like a great way to abuse rules for an advantage in SecondLife, people abuse 'Abuse Report' very often just for a 'laugh'. Refreshing the 'Incident Report' page to see whether or not their efforts were invain or not.
I know that people do this, I hear a lot about it. Already SL's 'Abuse Report' system is susceptible to a kind of entrapment without something like this.
Anyway, I'll be happy to hear what people think of this. <3 It doesn't matter if you read TOS or not you are still bound by what is in it. |
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Casey Seifert
No faith in humanity
Join date: 7 Nov 2005
Posts: 50
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12-21-2008 18:01
From: SuezanneC Baskerville Are people reading the chat considered to be "involved"? To copy and paste avatar A's chat do you need to get permission from anyone that was in chat range?
If avatar A chats on avatar B's parcel, do you have to get B's permission to copy and paste A's chat? B provided the place where the chat took place. Providing a place is involvement of a sort.
This rule would mean you can't copy and paste chat into an abuse report. That's sharing it with the Governance staff. Not sure to be honest, it doesn't surprise me that Lindens don't think things throughly enough. I mean each Linden themselves have been known to make up their own rules then ban people. An example: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1477They didn't even IM me before they took me out with an hour ban. So, yeeeaaaah, not surprised, just more and more disappointments as each year passes, from the way they handle things, to their client. I wish I didn't get into SecondLife in the first place, but I've spent the cash, made some friends, put in the effort. It'd seem a waste if I were to just leave. From: Tarina Sewell It doesn't matter if you read TOS or not you are still bound by what is in it. I know, I don't think I've mentioned suggesting otherwise.
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LittleMe Jewell
...........
Join date: 8 Oct 2007
Posts: 11,319
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12-21-2008 18:07
If I wanted to send Admin-B a copy of the IMs between me and Admin-A, I would ask Admin-B if I can send them - with permission and the fact that you would be giving them to LL (who can already get them from their server), you would be okay. From: Casey Seifert ... How many people actually read the ToS? ...<3 Whether or not an online agreement is read does not matter - everyone must click the button stating that they agree to the terms. Probably only the really anal ones of us actually read it.
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Casey Seifert
No faith in humanity
Join date: 7 Nov 2005
Posts: 50
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12-21-2008 18:20
From: LittleMe Jewell If I wanted to send Admin-B a copy of the IMs between me and Admin-A, I would ask Admin-B if I can send them - with permission and the fact that you would be giving them to LL (who can already get them from their server), you would be okay.
What happens if the admin refuses this permission? Then you're back to square one, sure there's chance of the admin you're reporting to becoming suspicious, but that's only a chance. Also, it can't become involved with Lindens because this is an owned sim, with rules specific to that sim and their abuse of power can't specifically be pointed to a break in ToS. Well at least in this case it can't be. From: LittleMe Jewell Whether or not an online agreement is read does not matter - everyone must click the button stating that they agree to the terms. Probably only the really anal ones of us actually read it. I know this. But it's also knowledge that can be abused and used against generally honest people with far more ease than any other ToS rule I've come across yet.
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Emily Darrow
Builder For Hire
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 101
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12-21-2008 18:34
Once a long time ago I had a conversation with a roleplay sim owner who I disagreed with because when I tried to join the roleplay I was told I had one choice (not gor) and one only even though there were other roles (which turned out to be only his friends, no biggie).
My argument was by limited which roles he had he ends up chasing off others. Well being that even though I was logical and concise he copied and pasted all the IMs to his blog, changed some of what I said and some of what he said so he looked better and used it to get others to demean and defame me and even to IM me and harrass me. I sent in an AR and who knows what happened. I doubt anything because it was posted off of SL.
I was vindicated later after his roleplay failed and the next one and next one after that because of his control freak nature. So who knows how far TOS extends at this point?
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Eclectic Wingtips
Registered User
Join date: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 795
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12-21-2008 19:10
One of the first rules we added to our venue was that all staff were givn the right to copy and paste the chat that happened between them and a guest or any open chat and share it with any other staff member and that any guest who arrived, by staying at the venue, agreed to this.
We have a rules giver which hands everyone the rules.
We have found this to be an affective way to combat this rule and allow us to pass on important conversations which may have resulted in someone being banned or ejected etc.
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Marybeth Cooperstone
Registered User
Join date: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 138
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12-21-2008 20:10
From: LittleMe Jewell Whether or not an online agreement is read does not matter - everyone must click the button stating that they agree to the terms. Probably only the really anal ones of us actually read it. I am one of those anal types who reads contracts. So don't ever be in line behind me at the rental car counter. Actually, as an attorney I write that stuff-mainly for government rules and statutes (really anal). While the SL terms seem reasonable -- not that I would fully agree, but I was willing to accept them. However, there have been some on-line businesses with totally ridiculous contract terms that I would absolutely refuse to agree to. As for this particular case, I will have to re-read the terms. Based on what was quoted, I would consider the first sentence (about privacy) to affect the meaning of the rest. Sharing conversations among staff probably would not violate the privacy expectation of residents. However, including a conversation in a report to an admin, even if the conversation was with another admin, might be considered a violation. If it were up to me, I would write it to specifically exclude sending records of conversations to administrators. But it wasn't up to me. I think, unless it is specifically stated somewhere, that the only people whose permission is needed are those whose names and words are in the conversation. Listeners and property owners are not involved because their privacy is not being violated. Anyway, that is my opinion, for what it is worth. And required disclaimer: the above is not legal advice but only represents my opinion. Mary |
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LittleMe Jewell
...........
Join date: 8 Oct 2007
Posts: 11,319
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12-21-2008 20:26
From: Marybeth Cooperstone I am one of those anal types who reads contracts. Yep - realtors and loan admins absolutely hate me. It takes forever for me to close on any sort of loan because I read every single page of the contract -- house closings are horrid.
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Why do you sit there looking like an envelope without any address on it?
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Optimism is denial, so face the facts and move on.
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Marybeth Cooperstone
Registered User
Join date: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 138
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12-21-2008 20:40
From: LittleMe Jewell Yep - realtors and loan admins absolutely hate me. It takes forever for me to close on any sort of loan because I read every single page of the contract -- house closings are horrid. Good real estate agents, bankers, etc. should not object. Several times I have rented apartments for business use and the rental agent took the time, less than 1/2 hour, to go over the lease agreement term by term to make sure I understood it. And when my husband and I bought a house a few years ago, at the closing the attorney, who knew that I was an attorney and had read all the paper work, spent the time to go over the mortgage agreement, sale contract, deed, and other papers to make sure that we understood and agreed to each part. However, there are others who seem to resent my reading them. I don't like those people. Just to be nasty, in those situations I read slower. If I am really feeling nasty (or if the other person is rude) I will pick some big word, perhaps a Latin word, and ask them what it means. I am usually really nice, but I can be a bitch. Mary |
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SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
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12-21-2008 20:47
I guess I might say that when an estate administrator speaks in their capacity as an administrator they have no reasonable expectation of privacy with regard to repeating their words to the sim owner or other administrators of that estate.
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.
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http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.
Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
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Susie Boffin
Certified Nutcase
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151
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12-21-2008 21:07
Casey what do mean by administrator? Are you speaking of a LL employee or are you referring to some person who owns a sim? A sim owner is a person like everyone else who has no special rights. Yes it is against the ToS to copy and paste converstion without the person's consent.
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SuezanneC Baskerville
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Join date: 22 Dec 2003
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12-21-2008 21:55
If I'm on a privately operated sim and an employee of the sim owner says something to me I should not have to get their permission to repeat their words to the sim owner or to other employees of the sim.
If the estate admin at an old west sim says:
SuezanneC, you must wear a space helmet in this sim, or be ejected.
I should be able to say
Hey, other admin, I think you might need to check on the other admin, they are saying things that don't make sense, here's what they said:
Admin AvatarA: SuezanneC, you must wear a space helmet in this sim, or be ejected.
Admin AvatarA had no reason to expect any privacy rights at all in making that statement in that context.
To require permission from an employee in order to discuss their behavior with their supervisors is silly and stupid.
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.
I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to
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http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.
Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan
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Ceka Cianci
SuperPremiumExcaliburAcc#
Join date: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 4,489
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12-22-2008 00:54
From: Casey Seifert Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Lives. Sharing or posting conversation in-world or in the Second Life Forums without consent of all involved Residents is a violation of other Resident's privacy.
Disclosure Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Life experience. Sharing personal information about a fellow Resident --including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, and real-world location beyond what is provided by the Resident in the First Life page of their Resident profile is a violation of that Resident's privacy. Remotely monitoring conversations, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without consent are all prohibited in Second Life and on the Second Life Forums when you edit the rule you lose the meaning..if it is public then it is not private..if it is im's or a private meeting or a channel for a group then it is private..if it is in general chat it's public domain.. when you are talking in general chat you are not being private |
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Ceka Cianci
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Join date: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 4,489
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12-22-2008 01:08
From: SuezanneC Baskerville If I'm on a privately operated sim and an employee of the sim owner says something to me I should not have to get their permission to repeat their words to the sim owner or to other employees of the sim.
If the estate admin at an old west sim says:
SuezanneC, you must wear a space helmet in this sim, or be ejected.
I should be able to say
Hey, other admin, I think you might need to check on the other admin, they are saying things that don't make sense, here's what they said:
Admin AvatarA: SuezanneC, you must wear a space helmet in this sim, or be ejected.
Admin AvatarA had no reason to expect any privacy rights at all in making that statement in that context.
To require permission from an employee in order to discuss their behavior with their supervisors is silly and stupid. if it is in general chat then repeat away hehehe but if it is in im's you can'y copy and paste it..you could retype it word for word though or leave the name off and leave in the time and date i supose..besides.the only way someone would really find out is if it was either pasted from the person you pasted the information to back to the other person or if it was on a note card and handed around.. if the person is not going to use the actual quote then there is no worry of an AR unless the person you gave it to AR's you.. ======================================================= Also for sim owners that think having rules pop up in a note card that allows TOS rules to be broken is a loophole..it's not..just because you say it is allowed in your sim doesn't mean it is allowed in SL and if it's not allowed in SL it is not allowed in your sim..so ban someone for something on a log and they somehow find out.they could have you AR'd crazyness i know lol |
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Eclectic Wingtips
Registered User
Join date: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 795
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12-22-2008 01:24
From: Ceka Cianci
Also for sim owners that think having rules pop up in a note card that allows TOS rules to be broken is a loophole..it's not..just because you say it is allowed in your sim doesn't mean it is allowed in SL and if it's not allowed in SL it is not allowed in your sim..so ban someone for something on a log and they somehow find out.they could have you AR'd
crazyness i know lol
True in most cases but the key word in the TOS is without your permission. By handing a notecard to every avie entering he area and in that notecard having a point that by staying here they are giving permission for us to copy and paste ims with staff or any converstion in staff then we arent breaking the TOS, we are in fact complying with them  |
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Ceka Cianci
SuperPremiumExcaliburAcc#
Join date: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 4,489
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12-22-2008 02:45
From: Eclectic Wingtips True in most cases but the key word in the TOS is without your permission. By handing a notecard to every avie entering he area and in that notecard having a point that by staying here they are giving permission for us to copy and paste ims with staff or any converstion in staff then we arent breaking the TOS, we are in fact complying with them very true heheh thats a good work around.. i am curious because i have a few friends that are opening up some new sims .well not new sims but opening them to the public.. have you checked with LL and they said this would work as permission? it sounds very good to me but we know how they can be at times lol if it is i am going to mention it to my friends to use it.. also to make sure they started the IM before a person may have been ejected lol |
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Eclectic Wingtips
Registered User
Join date: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 795
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12-22-2008 02:54
From: Ceka Cianci very true heheh thats a good work around..
i am curious because i have a few friends that are opening up some new sims .well not new sims but opening them to the public..
have you checked with LL and they said this would work as permission?
it sounds very good to me but we know how they can be at times lol
if it is i am going to mention it to my friends to use it..
also to make sure they started the IM before a person may have been ejected lol We have chatted informally with a linden who has said that it would be fine *shrugs* but we all know LL and their changing ideas and policies. I honestly cannot see how this could be an issue when the notecard giver gives a list of everyone who recieevd the rules and notifies me when there is an error. The thing is most clubs and sims share IMs between staff as needed about guests etc. We just tried to make sure our butts are covered incase soemoen does have an issue with it |
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Tabliopa Underwood
Registered User
Join date: 6 Aug 2007
Posts: 719
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12-22-2008 03:07
In some RP places and specialised clubs you get a rules notecard and you have pass through a barrier that says Do Not Enter unless you have read the rules and agree to them.
In my opinion this meets the intent and spirit of the ToS and entry gives consent.
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Ceka Cianci
SuperPremiumExcaliburAcc#
Join date: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 4,489
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12-22-2008 03:12
From: Eclectic Wingtips We have chatted informally with a linden who has said that it would be fine *shrugs* but we all know LL and their changing ideas and policies. I honestly cannot see how this could be an issue when the notecard giver gives a list of everyone who recieevd the rules and notifies me when there is an error.
The thing is most clubs and sims share IMs between staff as needed about guests etc. We just tried to make sure our butts are covered incase soemoen does have an issue with it yes i've gotten lots of cards with chatlogs myself working in the clubs.. you really do need them to get a story straight..most times if i could get them both i would always get a copy from each just to make sure they both lined up and also..let alone doing that gave me permission.. but i think it is important to like you say.cover your ass by adding it to the rules which we will have in a note card and posted as they walk in.. i'm really glad i jumped in this thread.. thank you |
