Second Life Forums Archive - My Interface is now my face

Farley Crabgrass

Join date: 31 Jul 2006

Posts: 19

03-30-2008 00:22

lately non-prim items I put on have been occasionally taking on the user inteface for a texture. There seems to be no rhyme or reason and it has happened to clothing or skin . Nothing seems to fix it at that time not rebaking - cache clearing etc. Sometimes it clears up the instant I go into appearance mode but reverts when I exit. I have pics and have shown it to friends so it isn't my video card.

Any ideas other than to sit back and enjoy the incredible variety of fun ways Linden find to entertain and amuse?

I have a good pic if you want me to send it to you ...

SuezanneC Baskerville

Forums Rock!

Join date: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 14,229

03-30-2008 01:15

The avatar skin textures are composited on one's computer, sent to SL, and distributed to other users.

So what your video card produces in this skin compositing process is what other people see.

_____________________

-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

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http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

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SuezanneC Baskerville

Forums Rock!

Join date: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 14,229

03-30-2008 01:17

The avatar skin textures and clothing layers are composited on one's computer, sent to SL, and distributed to other users.

So what your video card produces in this compositing process is what other people see.

_____________________

-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-

Rhaorth Antonelli

Registered User

Join date: 15 Apr 2006

Posts: 7,425

03-30-2008 02:20

really?

so the clothes I am wearing even if highly detailed, if my video card doesn't render them high detail others will see them as I do in low detail?

_____________________

From: someone

Morpheus Linden: But then I change avs pretty often too, so often, I look nothing like my avatar.

They are taking away the forums... it could be worse, they could be taking away the forums AND Second Life...

SuezanneC Baskerville

Forums Rock!

Join date: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 14,229

03-30-2008 06:02

Here's some Linden staff talking about what sounds like this exact problem:

From: someone

[13:23] Donovan Linden: Doesn't baking textures composite on the gpu and then move the result to main memory
[13:23] Zero Linden: 1) When you "bake" your avatar - we use OpenGL to composite all the textures and then read back the composited result
[13:23] Donovan Linden: I think I know Zero's theory about Zha's bug
[13:24] Zero Linden: So - Zha - if the read back, which is one of the things in OpenGL that is very unevenily implemented - or there are lots of prorpitary extensions for it
[13:24] Zero Linden: could have read back part of your desktop

It goes on to mention that in that particular case the problem may be caused by Second Life failing to deal properly with using dual monitors.

Kelly described the compositing process back in 2006 at http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/09/18/getting-technical-baked-avatar-textures/

From: someone

First things first - some terminology. What is a Baked Avatar Texture and why do we need them or care? Every avatar’s appearance is made up of many layers of images (skin and clothes), each one with special parameters (all those clothing sliders) that are all layered onto each other to create what we see. Compositing such images in real time is not trivial, in fact it can be a significant resource drain on your local machine. We can do it for a few avatars at a time, but not much more than that. So what we do is we composit or flatten these images down to a single image for each portion of the body - there are upper, lower, head, skirt, hair and eye composits. The last two don’t really get much compositing. We call these flattened images “Baked”. Hence the term Baked Avatar Images.

Each viewer is responsible for baking the images of their own avatar and then uploading them for everyone else to use. Then instead of trying to flatten 20 images based on various additional parameters to create the look of an avatar, there are just 4 or 5 images that perfectly represent all of that information with no baking required. If you think about this you will understand why a bad bake on your machine means everyone else will see the wrong thing, or why a problem in the bake or upload process may mean that you see the right thing (either from a cached copy of the bake, or because you are compositing in real time) while everyone else sees something wrong.

Things change in the software world, but the basic idea of "bake locally, upload to SL, send to other users" still holds.

It's because centralized compositing would be a big load on the centralized processor.

I suppose it's also something done with the user's GPU, and the servers don't have fancy GPUs.

_____________________

-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-

Kathy Morellet

Registered User

Join date: 26 Jul 2006

Posts: 809

03-30-2008 06:53

I have had my desktop applied to my avatar on several occasions and I do not have dual monitors. So, I'm not sure that has anything at all to do with this problem.

Rebaking my textures usually clears it up immediately.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to successfully replicate the process that causes this to happen. I just suddenly realize that I can read my chat history off my chest.

Kaimi Kyomoon

Kah-EE-mee

Join date: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 5,664

03-30-2008 07:59

This has happened to me several times lately. Changing outfits has cleared it up. I actually think it looks kind of cool sometimes. Like when I was wearing sunset pants.

_____________________

Kaimi's Normal Wear

From: 3Ring Binder

i think people are afraid of me or something.

SuezanneC Baskerville

Forums Rock!

Join date: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 14,229

03-30-2008 07:59

SL improper handling of dual monitors is one reason the composited textures are done wrong. That's not to say that is the only thing that SL does wrong that leads to defective compositing with similar results.

Things that go wrong on your computer regarding the avatar skin and clothing textures are sent to SL and distributed to everyone else.

Things of a similar nature happen often with users that have unsupported or extremely marginal graphics systems such as the old onboard Intel or SiSgraphics. Avatars with black spots on their skins are one example.

That you can show the condition to someone else doesn't mean the corrupted texture isn't being produced by your video card.

_____________________

-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-

Drivin Sideways

100% recycled pixels

Join date: 30 Oct 2007

Posts: 502

03-30-2008 14:58

From: SuezanneC Baskerville

... centralized compositing would be a big load on the centralized processor.

geez, and that might cause service outages.

I just hadn't posted here in a long time, and didnt' want you all to forget me.

.
.
.
.

_____________________

Drivin Sideways

100% recycled pixels

Join date: 30 Oct 2007

Posts: 502

03-30-2008 14:59

OK, please allow me to introduce myself:

My name is Drivin , and I'm an SLholic....

_____________________

SuezanneC Baskerville

Forums Rock!

Join date: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 14,229

03-30-2008 15:06

From: Drivin Sideways

geez, and that might cause service outages. .

Even more of them.

And more lag.

Such a thought surpasses the boundaries of human credulity.

_____________________

-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-

Lear Cale

wordy bugger

Join date: 22 Aug 2007

Posts: 3,569

03-30-2008 16:20

This happens to me, especially when I'm running two avatars at once on the same computer.

Rha,

From: someone

so the clothes I am wearing even if highly detailed, if my video card doesn't render them high detail others will see them as I do in low detail?

No, the results don't depend on how good stuff looks on your screen. If your card goofs up and does it *wrong*, yeah, things get messed up. But in general, the quality should be pretty much the same for all.

Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

My Interface is now my face - Bizarre

My Interface is now my face - Bizarre
Farley Crabgrass Farley Crabgrass Join date: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 19	03-30-2008 00:22 lately non-prim items I put on have been occasionally taking on the user inteface for a texture. There seems to be no rhyme or reason and it has happened to clothing or skin . Nothing seems to fix it at that time not rebaking - cache clearing etc. Sometimes it clears up the instant I go into appearance mode but reverts when I exit. I have pics and have shown it to friends so it isn't my video card. Any ideas other than to sit back and enjoy the incredible variety of fun ways Linden find to entertain and amuse? I have a good pic if you want me to send it to you ...
SuezanneC Baskerville Forums Rock! Join date: 22 Dec 2003 Posts: 14,229	03-30-2008 01:15 The avatar skin textures are composited on one's computer, sent to SL, and distributed to other users. So what your video card produces in this skin compositing process is what other people see. _____________________ - So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan -
SuezanneC Baskerville Forums Rock! Join date: 22 Dec 2003 Posts: 14,229	03-30-2008 01:17 The avatar skin textures and clothing layers are composited on one's computer, sent to SL, and distributed to other users. So what your video card produces in this compositing process is what other people see. _____________________ - So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan -
Rhaorth Antonelli Registered User Join date: 15 Apr 2006 Posts: 7,425	03-30-2008 02:20 really? so the clothes I am wearing even if highly detailed, if my video card doesn't render them high detail others will see them as I do in low detail? _____________________ From: someone Morpheus Linden: But then I change avs pretty often too, so often, I look nothing like my avatar. They are taking away the forums... it could be worse, they could be taking away the forums AND Second Life...
SuezanneC Baskerville Forums Rock! Join date: 22 Dec 2003 Posts: 14,229	03-30-2008 06:02 Here's some Linden staff talking about what sounds like this exact problem: From: someone [13:23] Donovan Linden: Doesn't baking textures composite on the gpu and then move the result to main memory [13:23] Zero Linden: 1) When you "bake" your avatar - we use OpenGL to composite all the textures and then read back the composited result [13:23] Donovan Linden: I think I know Zero's theory about Zha's bug [13:24] Zero Linden: So - Zha - if the read back, which is one of the things in OpenGL that is very unevenily implemented - or there are lots of prorpitary extensions for it [13:24] Zero Linden: could have read back part of your desktop It goes on to mention that in that particular case the problem may be caused by Second Life failing to deal properly with using dual monitors. Kelly described the compositing process back in 2006 at http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/09/18/getting-technical-baked-avatar-textures/ From: someone First things first - some terminology. What is a Baked Avatar Texture and why do we need them or care? Every avatar’s appearance is made up of many layers of images (skin and clothes), each one with special parameters (all those clothing sliders) that are all layered onto each other to create what we see. Compositing such images in real time is not trivial, in fact it can be a significant resource drain on your local machine. We can do it for a few avatars at a time, but not much more than that. So what we do is we composit or flatten these images down to a single image for each portion of the body - there are upper, lower, head, skirt, hair and eye composits. The last two don’t really get much compositing. We call these flattened images “Baked”. Hence the term Baked Avatar Images. Each viewer is responsible for baking the images of their own avatar and then uploading them for everyone else to use. Then instead of trying to flatten 20 images based on various additional parameters to create the look of an avatar, there are just 4 or 5 images that perfectly represent all of that information with no baking required. If you think about this you will understand why a bad bake on your machine means everyone else will see the wrong thing, or why a problem in the bake or upload process may mean that you see the right thing (either from a cached copy of the bake, or because you are compositing in real time) while everyone else sees something wrong. Things change in the software world, but the basic idea of "bake locally, upload to SL, send to other users" still holds. It's because centralized compositing would be a big load on the centralized processor. I suppose it's also something done with the user's GPU, and the servers don't have fancy GPUs. _____________________ - So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan -
Kathy Morellet Registered User Join date: 26 Jul 2006 Posts: 809	03-30-2008 06:53 I have had my desktop applied to my avatar on several occasions and I do not have dual monitors. So, I'm not sure that has anything at all to do with this problem. Rebaking my textures usually clears it up immediately. Unfortunately, I have not been able to successfully replicate the process that causes this to happen. I just suddenly realize that I can read my chat history off my chest.
Kaimi Kyomoon Kah-EE-mee Join date: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 5,664	03-30-2008 07:59 This has happened to me several times lately. Changing outfits has cleared it up. I actually think it looks kind of cool sometimes. Like when I was wearing sunset pants. _____________________ Kaimi's Normal Wear From: 3Ring Binder i think people are afraid of me or something.
SuezanneC Baskerville Forums Rock! Join date: 22 Dec 2003 Posts: 14,229	03-30-2008 07:59 SL improper handling of dual monitors is one reason the composited textures are done wrong. That's not to say that is the only thing that SL does wrong that leads to defective compositing with similar results. Things that go wrong on your computer regarding the avatar skin and clothing textures are sent to SL and distributed to everyone else. Things of a similar nature happen often with users that have unsupported or extremely marginal graphics systems such as the old onboard Intel or SiSgraphics. Avatars with black spots on their skins are one example. That you can show the condition to someone else doesn't mean the corrupted texture isn't being produced by your video card. _____________________ - So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan -
Drivin Sideways 100% recycled pixels Join date: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 502	03-30-2008 14:58 From: SuezanneC Baskerville ... centralized compositing would be a big load on the centralized processor. geez, and that might cause service outages. I just hadn't posted here in a long time, and didnt' want you all to forget me. . . . . _____________________
Drivin Sideways 100% recycled pixels Join date: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 502	03-30-2008 14:59 OK, please allow me to introduce myself: My name is Drivin , and I'm an SLholic.... _____________________
SuezanneC Baskerville Forums Rock! Join date: 22 Dec 2003 Posts: 14,229	03-30-2008 15:06 From: Drivin Sideways geez, and that might cause service outages. . Even more of them. And more lag. Such a thought surpasses the boundaries of human credulity. _____________________ - So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan -
Lear Cale wordy bugger Join date: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 3,569	03-30-2008 16:20 This happens to me, especially when I'm running two avatars at once on the same computer. Rha, From: someone so the clothes I am wearing even if highly detailed, if my video card doesn't render them high detail others will see them as I do in low detail? No, the results don't depend on how good stuff looks on your screen. If your card goofs up and does it wrong, yeah, things get messed up. But in general, the quality should be pretty much the same for all.